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ctx coils
- Thread starter Neilo
- Start date
Critterhunter
New member
The BBS Sov/Xcal machines have a pre-amp in the coil to boost the weak RX (receive) signal before it has a chance to pick up distortions or EMI traveling up the coil cable, where inside the control box the signal is further amplified by the sensitivity control. I'm only aware of one other machine on the market (?)...The Xterra line, which have a circuit in the coil...Which in their case mainly talks to the control box and tells it what frequency it is on.
However, I have read that this new Minelab features coded chips in the coil that at the very least will be hard for aftermarket companies to duplicate if not impossible. On the other hand, aftermarket coil companies for the BBS machines have figured out and copied this pre-amp circuit in the BBS line, so never under estimate the ability of companies like Detech to make something happen for the FBS2 coils.
However, I have read that this new Minelab features coded chips in the coil that at the very least will be hard for aftermarket companies to duplicate if not impossible. On the other hand, aftermarket coil companies for the BBS machines have figured out and copied this pre-amp circuit in the BBS line, so never under estimate the ability of companies like Detech to make something happen for the FBS2 coils.
EladSwerdna
New member
If someone out there doesn't make an aftermarket coil for this thing, I will be suprised. I can only imagine the outrageous prices they will charge.
Neil
Well-known member
Minelab may have given out the info needed on the Sov/Excal coils. Both Coiltek and Sunray were making aftermarket coils for them way back, near the beginning of the line. It might be more of an alliance relationship.
If circuits/amps in the coil offered a distinct advantage than minelab would probably be doing that with all their coils.
If circuits/amps in the coil offered a distinct advantage than minelab would probably be doing that with all their coils.
Critterhunter said:
Coiltek, SunRay and Detech were all authorized by Minelab to provide aftermarket coils for the FBS and BBS series of detectors. Detech and Coiltec were authorized to make aftermarket coils for the Musketeer series. Coilteck was authorized to make an aftermarket coil for the X-TERRA series. The common denominator in these equations is the word authorized. Being authorized is more than simply making a coil that transmits and receives. To be authorized, the coils must reach an agreement with Minelab that insures they meet rigorous technical specifications, established by Minelab. To accomplish this, the manufacture will have access to information that is not typically found outside of Minelab. Simply "reverse engineering" a coil is not the same as being authorized to produce it. There are aftermarket coils currently being manufactured by a company that did not receive authorization from Minelab to produce and market them. That has caused some concern regarding warranty and/or repair charges if and when something goes wrong. There may come a time when Minelab authorizes other manufacturer(s) to produce coils for the CTX 3030. This early in the run, with three coils immediately available, I can't imagine Minelab has even considered it. But if and when it happens, you can bet that the authorized manufacturer will have to abide by the terms of the agreement, technical specifications and manufacturing process that Minelab determines. And, they will be noted as Authorized and licensed by Minelab. Not simply sold on eBay. JMHO HH Randy
Critterhunter
New member
Neil said:
Actually, Neil...The newer Minelab Xterra models use a pre-amp in the coil as well, along with communication with the control box to tell it what frequency they are using. So there appears to still be merit to the idea of a pre-amp in the coil, but it adds to the complexity and manufacturing of the coils. That's a lot of effort for what gains you get in performance.
A pre-amp makes perfect sense, actually...Because the RX coil winding only produces a VERY weak signal from the target, which can easily degrade or at least pick up EMI noise as it travels up the coil cable to the control box. By doing an initial pre-boost of the signal directly at the RX coil before it picks up contamination, it's reasonable to expect that you should be able to further raise sensitivity (inside the box is where it's amplified further via the sensitivity control) further without as much potential to experience distortion issues. I wouldn't be surprised if this new machine has some form of pre-amp in the coil, along with whatever other technology (such as encoded chips) that might make it much harder to replicate.
Digger, I'm not debating the legalities of whether or not a third party is allowed to make an "authorized" coil for the new machine. Only simply stating to never underestimate the cleverness of technicians to get around any coded chip security and functions that may or may not be (don't know...just reading what's been said so far) found in any electronics in the coil.
The pre-amp circuit in a Sovereign is a rather simple circuit that uses an off the shelf IC and a few other minor components that can be found anywhere. That circuit has been floating around on the web for years for those who want to make their own homemade coil, so it wouldn't have posed any real technical discouragement to third party manufacturers if they did want to make a coil without Minelab's permission. As far as I know a simple circuit like that using an off the shelf IC can't be patented, as it's a rather common pre-amp circuit that has applications in other devices as well.
But, I wasn't aware that Detech did in fact get authorization from Minelab to make coils for their machines? Is that true? I'm aware Coiltech used to make coils for Minelab, but wasn't aware that they also still have to have authorization to produce the coils for them they sell now? I didn't think that kind of agreement was required, but I could of course be very wrong. Does anybody have a link that details any of these authorizations because I've never read that. I would think that if Minelab authorization was required Detech would make a point in their ads to say "Authorized By Minelab"?
Getting off topic, sorry. If making a coil for a Minelab does require authorization and Minelab doesn't give it out for this new machine, I would think that would be a problem for some. After all, how many Minelab users do you hear about using one of their 8" coils to hunt trashy sites? There are some, but many more people seem to be using other small aftermarket coils for that purpose. Combined with the popularity of the large aftermarket coils that many seem to prefer over their stock 10" or 11" Minelab coils, I could see why Minelab might want to be the only source for those kinds of coil options, if indeed authorization is required and they don't hand that out to any third party.
Critterhunter
New member
Got this response from Ralph at Sunray...
I guess you could read that response one of several ways depending on where you stand, so I await further clarification before further commenting.
Not going to assume to speak for Sunray, but if a company like Detech has to have Minelab's authorization you would think they'd want to put "Authorized By Minelab" in their ads because that would be a big selling point, but then again maybe they just aren't allowed to make such a statement in their authorization agreement. Just throwing it out there. Don't know what to believe, so if somebody has any links to details on this please post them as I'd like to read about it. All I can say is that I have never read about a coil company being authorized by Minelab to make coils for it, but that doesn't mean that there aren't statements floating around about that on the web that I some how missed. I would bet that if anybody has authorization from Minelab it would for sure be Coiltech since they used to make coils for them, or at least that's what I always heard. I'll do some snooping on the web and if I can find any authorization statement like that from them I'll post it.
This is of course getting way off topic, so let's just say that if authorization is required to make coils for this new machine I hope several aftermarket coil companies jump on that train because there are some excellent coils being made out there. I think we can at least all agree on that.
Critterhunter said:
Ralph Sun Ray said:
I guess you could read that response one of several ways depending on where you stand, so I await further clarification before further commenting.
Not going to assume to speak for Sunray, but if a company like Detech has to have Minelab's authorization you would think they'd want to put "Authorized By Minelab" in their ads because that would be a big selling point, but then again maybe they just aren't allowed to make such a statement in their authorization agreement. Just throwing it out there. Don't know what to believe, so if somebody has any links to details on this please post them as I'd like to read about it. All I can say is that I have never read about a coil company being authorized by Minelab to make coils for it, but that doesn't mean that there aren't statements floating around about that on the web that I some how missed. I would bet that if anybody has authorization from Minelab it would for sure be Coiltech since they used to make coils for them, or at least that's what I always heard. I'll do some snooping on the web and if I can find any authorization statement like that from them I'll post it.
This is of course getting way off topic, so let's just say that if authorization is required to make coils for this new machine I hope several aftermarket coil companies jump on that train because there are some excellent coils being made out there. I think we can at least all agree on that.
Critterhunter
New member
There are many ways around patents. Just look at how much stuff China is knocking off by some "creative" worming around things. Although a lot of stuff they are knocking off is in violation of patent laws.
I've got a story about just how well patents protect stuff from a friend's personal experience...
This friend, who is an electrical engineer, I met because we started getting together to design, build, and fly electric RC aircraft that we hotwired from foam blocks for construction. Anyway, he got heavy into FPV (First Person View), in which you put a panning camera on the plane and then wear LCD goggles and can see out the plane as you fly it like your the pilot. He even has it rigged to where you can turn your head from side to side and the camera will pan like you are looking out the side windows. Amazing stuff.
But anyway, getting to the point about patents here...He began flying his planes out of normal sight of somebody standing on the ground. Once he started getting about a half mile or so away he'd start to lose video feed and have to return. He couldn't find any good antennas on the market to do better, so using his electrical engineering education he started designing and building several types of his own. These are both antennas for the ground station as well as antennas designs that go on the camera it's self.
He would post his videos on the net and people were amazed at the distances he was getting and still having video feed. People started asking for his antennas, and so as he sold more and more he started an official company building these things. He now has several different designs for various applications (such as long range on flat ground, cutting through mountainous areas, and so on) and is now selling those various designs to other RC FPV flyers at a rather brisk rate and has a rather good business going.
I asked him if he had his antenna designs pattented and he said he investigated that extensively, but he found out that even if he spent the money to do that there are still so many ways to get around the patent that he'd never be able to protect the product. Instead, his philosphy is to keep pushing the edge and coming up with better and better antenna designs, so that the competition who copies him is always one step behind.
Bottom line is my money is on that where there is a will there is a way.
I've got a story about just how well patents protect stuff from a friend's personal experience...
This friend, who is an electrical engineer, I met because we started getting together to design, build, and fly electric RC aircraft that we hotwired from foam blocks for construction. Anyway, he got heavy into FPV (First Person View), in which you put a panning camera on the plane and then wear LCD goggles and can see out the plane as you fly it like your the pilot. He even has it rigged to where you can turn your head from side to side and the camera will pan like you are looking out the side windows. Amazing stuff.
But anyway, getting to the point about patents here...He began flying his planes out of normal sight of somebody standing on the ground. Once he started getting about a half mile or so away he'd start to lose video feed and have to return. He couldn't find any good antennas on the market to do better, so using his electrical engineering education he started designing and building several types of his own. These are both antennas for the ground station as well as antennas designs that go on the camera it's self.
He would post his videos on the net and people were amazed at the distances he was getting and still having video feed. People started asking for his antennas, and so as he sold more and more he started an official company building these things. He now has several different designs for various applications (such as long range on flat ground, cutting through mountainous areas, and so on) and is now selling those various designs to other RC FPV flyers at a rather brisk rate and has a rather good business going.
I asked him if he had his antenna designs pattented and he said he investigated that extensively, but he found out that even if he spent the money to do that there are still so many ways to get around the patent that he'd never be able to protect the product. Instead, his philosphy is to keep pushing the edge and coming up with better and better antenna designs, so that the competition who copies him is always one step behind.
Bottom line is my money is on that where there is a will there is a way.
As I said in my previous post, Sun Ray makes coils for the BBS and FBS Minelab detectors. So do Coiltec and Detech. And each company has done that for quite a number of years. That is understandable considering BBS technology has been around since the Sovereign was introduced in 1991. Then came FBS with the Explorer in 1999. Who knows? Maybe they didn't have specific agreements back then. But then isn't now.
VFLEX technology was introduced with the X-TERRA lineup in late 2005, early 2006. Minelab was acquired by Codan in 2008. And in July of 2011, Coiltek released the first "aftermarket" coil for the X-TERRA with their 15-inch DD at 7.5kHz. And it is the ONLY aftermarket X-TERRA coil authorized by Minelab.
[attachment 232947 coiltekwotxterraad.jpg]
HH Randy
VFLEX technology was introduced with the X-TERRA lineup in late 2005, early 2006. Minelab was acquired by Codan in 2008. And in July of 2011, Coiltek released the first "aftermarket" coil for the X-TERRA with their 15-inch DD at 7.5kHz. And it is the ONLY aftermarket X-TERRA coil authorized by Minelab.
[attachment 232947 coiltekwotxterraad.jpg]
HH Randy
brissietex
Member
It would be a real shame if Minelab didn't allow Coiltek to bring out a WOT coil for the CTX-3030...they are great FBS coils on the beach and elsewhere (if you know how to handle the thing, that is). Not as kind on the back or arms, though.
I'd love to see this Coiltek 15" working on an X-Terra especially after having so much luck with it on my Explorer II. Shame I gave my XT70 to my Mum to play with. Come to think of it, tho, I think the 15" coil would be more suited for a FBS multi-freq machine than a single freq machine like the X-Terra. Maybe the VFLEX chip on the 15" will help it be more stable. Might have to go head over to the X-Terra forum to see how it plays out...
I'd love to see this Coiltek 15" working on an X-Terra especially after having so much luck with it on my Explorer II. Shame I gave my XT70 to my Mum to play with. Come to think of it, tho, I think the 15" coil would be more suited for a FBS multi-freq machine than a single freq machine like the X-Terra. Maybe the VFLEX chip on the 15" will help it be more stable. Might have to go head over to the X-Terra forum to see how it plays out...