Every once in a while I will be going along and and get a descent target wich could be a deep coin but its iffy, its a good signal one way I will turn 90 sometimes its still descent sometimes not so much, I will go to dig it and as soon as I fold the plug over I rescan with my coil and its gone. I assume this is just iron because if its a deep coin the signal should get better or at least still be there right. Tell me if im correct in my thinking. It doesn't happen often but it does happen once or twice every hunt. Let me know what you think. Also I hear people talk about hunting spots at different angles I don't understand that if you hunt a site one way but don't get the signals the other way don't most of you assume its an iron target. I guess I don't understand that would you fill me in. Thanks again
Find's Treasure Forums
Welcome to Find's Treasure Forums, Guests!
You are viewing this forums as a guest which limits you to read only status.
Only registered members may post stories, questions, classifieds, reply to other posts, contact other members using built in messaging and use many other features found on these forums.
Why not register and join us today? It's free! (We don't share your email addresses with anyone.) We keep email addresses of our users to protect them and others from bad people posting things they shouldn't.
Click here to register!
Need Support Help?
Cannot log in?, click here to have new password emailed to you
dissapearing targets need some questions answered
- Thread starter bentrac
- Start date
my hunch is, that in order for someone to answer this, they'd need to be checking a sample/suspected target, where you say this happens. The reason is, that the question is very sound-oriented, and "sounds" can not be described in printed text. They have to be "heard". In the same way as if someone said to you: "describe the sound of C-minor in printed text". You can't do it. It can only be heard. It's the same thing when someone says "1 way signals" or "disappearing signals", etc... Sometimes when someone tells me that, we go back and forth making assumptions of what each other is talking about, making stabs and guesses at the problem. But then once I actually go out with the person in the field, and see what he is doing, watch the way he swings, the sound he is hearing, etc.... only THEN can I discern what the problem, or target, (or lack thereof) may be.
But off the top of my head, here's one possible explanation (assuming, of course, there was really a target there, and you really heard a sound, etc...): if the target is some little flitty thing that is just barely in at the depth of the grass roots (ie.: just barely hidden from view and not deep). Then you go and cut a plug, and flip the plug over, right? And assuming this plug has a root-ball and some soil/dirt still attached, then think about it: If you've turned that plug upside down, then the target which was shallow at first, is now deep, since you are now detecting the bottom of the upturned plug, right? Now if it's a coin or large target, this would be no problem. But if it's a teeensy little grommet, or fleck of copper snippet or something, the perhaps it will only be heard with the plug turned grass-side-up.
But off the top of my head, here's one possible explanation (assuming, of course, there was really a target there, and you really heard a sound, etc...): if the target is some little flitty thing that is just barely in at the depth of the grass roots (ie.: just barely hidden from view and not deep). Then you go and cut a plug, and flip the plug over, right? And assuming this plug has a root-ball and some soil/dirt still attached, then think about it: If you've turned that plug upside down, then the target which was shallow at first, is now deep, since you are now detecting the bottom of the upturned plug, right? Now if it's a coin or large target, this would be no problem. But if it's a teeensy little grommet, or fleck of copper snippet or something, the perhaps it will only be heard with the plug turned grass-side-up.
I know this is a Minelab forum but thought this might help. I asked Fisher about signal loss over an open hole and got this response from Dave Johnson.
From: David Johnson
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 2:52 PM
To: Daniel Snell
Subject: RE: Technical question - Detector response over an open hole
Motion discriminators are based on the principle of looking for metal discontinuities in a uniform ground matrix. When you create a ground discontinuity by digging, the electronic signal from that discontinuity will either add or subtract from any metal signal present. So,depending on the machine, the ground conditions, and how you are actually using the machine, the ground discontinuity created by partial excavation may make the target signal either stronger or weaker, but most of the time it will make the target signal weaker.
So, the advice to keep digging if at first you heard the signal, is good advice.
--Dave Johnson
Chief Designer, FTP-Fisher
From: David Johnson
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 2:52 PM
To: Daniel Snell
Subject: RE: Technical question - Detector response over an open hole
Motion discriminators are based on the principle of looking for metal discontinuities in a uniform ground matrix. When you create a ground discontinuity by digging, the electronic signal from that discontinuity will either add or subtract from any metal signal present. So,depending on the machine, the ground conditions, and how you are actually using the machine, the ground discontinuity created by partial excavation may make the target signal either stronger or weaker, but most of the time it will make the target signal weaker.
So, the advice to keep digging if at first you heard the signal, is good advice.
--Dave Johnson
Chief Designer, FTP-Fisher
The signal I hear is high tone coin signals the same signals I hear from a good coin target except choppier or a slight warble and not repeatable from all directions as soon as I hit it it stops me in my tracks and it worth investigating, and I have dug down a couple times and searched for a good amount of time listening for any signal with not to much success. I have also flipped the plug back over as well and rescaned the the spot as a whole again with nothing that would say coin at all. It just happened the other day while I was on a hunt twice. They sounded just like the wheats I dug at about 6 inches just not as repeatable from all angles, but they did sound sweet. And also my numbers are usually pretty bouncy but I will get a 12:43 or a 12:47 or 13:43 just enough to say dig me. Sorry if im not explaining myself very good it is kinda hard to describe it
First if you get good hits and turn 90 degrees and get a good hit, that's a target (good or bad) of some sort. I have used etracs and whites v3i. I too had the same problems you are experiencing. What happens is when you start digging the dirt off the top of the target you may lose the target when you are trying to rescan it with your detector. I didn't have as big a problem with the white's machine but the AM on that machine is adjustable for pinpointing, the e-trac is fixed. My recommendation to you is pay attention to your depth gauge and target size while pinpointing. If the target is small the depth gauge is believable, if big not so. Get yourself a pinpointer probe. I dug 7-10 inch holes using the etrac without an inline probe or pinpointer probe. It didn't take me long to figure out I needed a probe. The garret pinpointer probe is a good recommendation for the loot. There are others, some better, some worse.
As far as the directions you hunt an area from. Try this experiment and it will help you understand. Place a penny on edge on top of the ground. Now scan the penny with your coil about 3-5" from all directions. See if you noticed a difference in how your detector responds. The same thing can be said when trash is close to say coins. By changing your directional aprroach to a site will possibly allow your detector to see some of the masked targets you may have not detected previously.
As far as the directions you hunt an area from. Try this experiment and it will help you understand. Place a penny on edge on top of the ground. Now scan the penny with your coil about 3-5" from all directions. See if you noticed a difference in how your detector responds. The same thing can be said when trash is close to say coins. By changing your directional aprroach to a site will possibly allow your detector to see some of the masked targets you may have not detected previously.
LandOLincoln
New member
In my experience(which is limited) I've noticed if you have a target that rings in on the edge of your limit of discrimination and you also have close iron in the 30-41 or higher range in close proximity you will experience falsing. Like the bad target is opening the disc enough to let the iron squeak through. Signals are almost always chirpy, scratchy, or elongated. Not completely solid like a coin and never from both directions. Also rusty nuts will hit like you describe too but they usually sound off in 2 directions unlike your standard iron false. Just my opinion.
well your gonna get fooled by falses if you dig "iffy" signals like that,,,,,, cost of doing business..... if you get a signal that IS repeatable from multiple angles and THEN you can't find the target you have a problem,,,, what you are experiencing is a MD trying to find the harder, partially masked and deep targets signals,,,,,, those are just diecy sometimes. Decide before you dig each target,,,, is it a repeatable , reliable, probable coin signal,,,,,, if you think it is,,, there should be a coin there,,,,, if you have doubts dig it knowing there may be nothing there and learn from it,,,,, but you will never avoid them completely if you keep md,,,,HH
Ok then what's a common partially masked or deep target act like. I know they don't all act the same but what are some giveaways that says coin that you guys look for when digging iffy signals. I believe that what I was hitting on before was iron or iron falsing. What's a two way signal not a four way signal that says its a coin.
Good question. No doubt I've had this happen as well. My assumption is usually falsing. Now I don't believe you will get much falsing from iron with Co's below 30 or so, but above that you could have a DEEP Iron target or a LARGE one.
As powerful as the E-Trac is, sometimes it can be a problem. Case in point. I once found a buried IRON wagon wheel rim. It wasn't buried deeply, but the signal was real good in the center. You could dig all you want to down and our for a 16" diameter and not find anything. Only after getting rid of the rim, did the sound completely go away. No good target, nothing.
I guess my personal opinion is, if I I dig the plug and get nothing, then I'll UNDERCUT and widen the hole by about 3 inches or so for targets on edge.
Then if my probe isn't picking anything up around the hole or down (if I'm at 10" - so probe would be trying to search at around 12
As powerful as the E-Trac is, sometimes it can be a problem. Case in point. I once found a buried IRON wagon wheel rim. It wasn't buried deeply, but the signal was real good in the center. You could dig all you want to down and our for a 16" diameter and not find anything. Only after getting rid of the rim, did the sound completely go away. No good target, nothing.
I guess my personal opinion is, if I I dig the plug and get nothing, then I'll UNDERCUT and widen the hole by about 3 inches or so for targets on edge.
Then if my probe isn't picking anything up around the hole or down (if I'm at 10" - so probe would be trying to search at around 12
bentrac said:
The sound will usually lead you to dig, but the "difference" from what your first question is, you generally find the target - be it a rusty nail or the like. As we all know, when in discrimination, the nail will almost always be off to the side of the hole.
For me its like this. You get a good sounding 2 way hit...not a 4, but a 2 way hit.
So you pinpoint best you can and cut the plug.
Stick your probe in and the machine nulls out (SunRay probe). You start to frown.
The more you probe and dig, hoping for a better sound. You finally get frustrated, hit AM and find the stupid nail and get rid of it.
Then you probe some more...just threshold.
You replace the plug, scan a couple more times with the Detector coil and then....
The corner of your mouth comes up in a grin and you BREATH a HUGE sigh of relief, knowing you will NOT be fooled by that larget, bent, rusty nail again.
NebTrac
Theory, I has one
Along the lines of the metal flitty thing and motion ground matrix explanation posts:
The target did not disappear, its really tiny and deep. You have to noise cancel and jack with the settings cause its there... Most likely its copper. Like the 1/4" piece of speaker wire I pull out of 20" deep hole.
Annoyed at the little Merlin, 30 minutes working the the spot with on/off, reset, noise cancel,+multi setting variables set him straight.
Ok, the hole was 20"deep...or "more" sadly. The wire original location? between 6-20" deep..who knows some soil conditions could produce big freak auras around tiny copper. Then disappear when disturbed.
Along the lines of the metal flitty thing and motion ground matrix explanation posts:
The target did not disappear, its really tiny and deep. You have to noise cancel and jack with the settings cause its there... Most likely its copper. Like the 1/4" piece of speaker wire I pull out of 20" deep hole.
Annoyed at the little Merlin, 30 minutes working the the spot with on/off, reset, noise cancel,+multi setting variables set him straight.
Ok, the hole was 20"deep...or "more" sadly. The wire original location? between 6-20" deep..who knows some soil conditions could produce big freak auras around tiny copper. Then disappear when disturbed.
"Ok then what's a common partially masked or deep target act like " ........ "What's a two way signal not a four way signal that says its a coin."
Again, you are asking questions that must be answered by persons telling you what something "sounds" like. And again: hard or impossible to do in printed text.
The best thing to do is to buddy up with someone in your area, who uses your machine (or at least an explorer of one of the various versions), and go out with him. Pick someone who is really good (ie.: not just a sandbox hunter). Like, someone who is routinely coming in with the silver coins to show off. Someone who knows how to sniff out the deep silver from turfed parks and thus has experience with chasing the deeper whispers. Trade off flagged signals, see what he "calls" them (ie.: I'd pass this, or I'd chase this, this is a mid conductor, or high conductor, deep, shallow, 2-targets closeby each other, and so forth). Watch how he swings. Listen to the sounds he is trying to isolate from each other. Then watch how he retrieves, and so forth.
Again, you are asking questions that must be answered by persons telling you what something "sounds" like. And again: hard or impossible to do in printed text.
The best thing to do is to buddy up with someone in your area, who uses your machine (or at least an explorer of one of the various versions), and go out with him. Pick someone who is really good (ie.: not just a sandbox hunter). Like, someone who is routinely coming in with the silver coins to show off. Someone who knows how to sniff out the deep silver from turfed parks and thus has experience with chasing the deeper whispers. Trade off flagged signals, see what he "calls" them (ie.: I'd pass this, or I'd chase this, this is a mid conductor, or high conductor, deep, shallow, 2-targets closeby each other, and so forth). Watch how he swings. Listen to the sounds he is trying to isolate from each other. Then watch how he retrieves, and so forth.
My thoughts on the original post:
1. i agree its iron. next time it happens use quick-mask and see if a nail is laying in your spoils pile.
2. there are so many targets in the ground that a different angle of attack can reveal good targets. the etrac tries its best but its not a magic wand. a new angle can reveal good targets. just the other day i had a "good" sound of a silver coin mixed in with no less than about 7 different targets in one tiny area. i dug everything....there was a silver dime, a wheat penny, a few grommets, and a small peice of scrap copper...there may have been some iron there as well, i cant remember that, specifically. i think the thing is, if a site has potential, its worth slowing down and trying a different approach to squeeze more coins out of it. I am so firmly convinced that no one ever cleans a site out....never.
1. i agree its iron. next time it happens use quick-mask and see if a nail is laying in your spoils pile.
2. there are so many targets in the ground that a different angle of attack can reveal good targets. the etrac tries its best but its not a magic wand. a new angle can reveal good targets. just the other day i had a "good" sound of a silver coin mixed in with no less than about 7 different targets in one tiny area. i dug everything....there was a silver dime, a wheat penny, a few grommets, and a small peice of scrap copper...there may have been some iron there as well, i cant remember that, specifically. i think the thing is, if a site has potential, its worth slowing down and trying a different approach to squeeze more coins out of it. I am so firmly convinced that no one ever cleans a site out....never.
EtracTom-AdirondacksNY
New member
I wholly agree with Nebtrac and Moonshine's comments. I get these and they either are a small nail and it's off to the side and I hit on the end of it or it's up in the plug i dug and it's a tiny thing and not in the hole so when I flip plug back over into the hole and rescan it's there and not in the hole.
After you do get to the you've dug your hole point try in Pin Point mode over it and see if it hits on anything after you sweep over it in discrimination mode and it don't hit. If that don't work check the plug flip it right side up and try both modes over it.
Usually if it's a discriminated out object like a nail/junk after you dig a hole the discrimination will now work better as the soil was disturbed and there is less of it to penetrate and process out so now you don't hear the iron/junk target anymore.
After you do get to the you've dug your hole point try in Pin Point mode over it and see if it hits on anything after you sweep over it in discrimination mode and it don't hit. If that don't work check the plug flip it right side up and try both modes over it.
Usually if it's a discriminated out object like a nail/junk after you dig a hole the discrimination will now work better as the soil was disturbed and there is less of it to penetrate and process out so now you don't hear the iron/junk target anymore.
utahshovelhead
Active member
I do the following on almost every target. If your not doing this then start to.
Once you get the target hit thoughly check it out. THEN before you dig switch screens to Quick mask and check the number and sound again. IF the number on the FE Line drops to below 17 or more that is your first indication that the chances are it is iron.
NOW...how deep is it? if its deep and you know the coins in that area are deep then investigate more as deep coins can show up in quick mask with a 17 or so FE no. IF its only 8 inches it should not be in the FE 17 area ( in my ground) .
IF IT IS DEEP ( more than 9 inches or so) and youi think the sound and target numbers are fairly consistent for coin or small round object...then pinpoint and FEEL for a small sharp size. Iron most the tiime will be not so small and sharp.
If you then dig and the sound disapears...step back and come over the hole again with a new attitude looking for any signal, maybe even dig a bit more just to see what if you pushed it on edge. AT this poiint if I find no signal I count it up to experiance and move on but sometimes I will just dig a great big damn hole just to see what fooled me again.
Mostly just have fun even if you get fooled a bit it gets easyer and you start to understand the reactions of your machiine in cases like that.
Once you get the target hit thoughly check it out. THEN before you dig switch screens to Quick mask and check the number and sound again. IF the number on the FE Line drops to below 17 or more that is your first indication that the chances are it is iron.
NOW...how deep is it? if its deep and you know the coins in that area are deep then investigate more as deep coins can show up in quick mask with a 17 or so FE no. IF its only 8 inches it should not be in the FE 17 area ( in my ground) .
IF IT IS DEEP ( more than 9 inches or so) and youi think the sound and target numbers are fairly consistent for coin or small round object...then pinpoint and FEEL for a small sharp size. Iron most the tiime will be not so small and sharp.
If you then dig and the sound disapears...step back and come over the hole again with a new attitude looking for any signal, maybe even dig a bit more just to see what if you pushed it on edge. AT this poiint if I find no signal I count it up to experiance and move on but sometimes I will just dig a great big damn hole just to see what fooled me again.
Mostly just have fun even if you get fooled a bit it gets easyer and you start to understand the reactions of your machiine in cases like that.
earthmansurfer
Active member
One other point that NebTrac mention (btw Nebtrac that was kind of funny!), and this happened to me TWICE yesterday. This happens especially in trashier areas or areas filled with targets. If you get between two coins, there can be a ghost signal. I verified this because I "ignored" the two shallow coins and dug the "deeper" one only to realize I was getting a ghost signal. This is pretty much like NebTracs example, only there was no wagon wheel (LOL - I'm still cracking up at that one. That is like a trap set for detectorists!)
Albert
ps - Great points in this thread.
Albert
ps - Great points in this thread.