This is my idea of what falsing is. Say you get a good repeatable quarter signal, sounds just like a quarter, pinpoints like a quarter, everything says quarter. You dig it up to find a steel bottle cap. I do not really have that happen on the Etrac. Some of the deeper coins will hit lower towards the iron range but to me that is not falsing. I think it is rare for me to dig something that sounds like a good target on the Etrac that turns out to be iron junk. Now on other brands I have used it seemed to happen quite frequently. What are your thoughts.
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Etrac and falsing?
- Thread starter Bill_S
- Start date
EtracTom-AdirondacksNY
New member
I agree completely Bill. I do dig a bunch of them falses as I think sometimes in a site I've pretty beaten to death with the Etrac I want to see if I have one more there I may have missed so I tend to force the signals somewhat. Dig way more junk with my other detectors for sure. Not as much target info there on them as the Etrac gives.
You probably know this Bill, but for the newer guys. You will NEVER and I repeat NEVER dig a steel (rusty, used back in the 20's, 30's, 40's and 50's) bottle cap thinking you're chasing a silver dime or quarter. You will unearth one once in a while thinking you're after a nickel. They've always hit in the nickel range for me.
I have compared signals with other detectorists using different machines and they will say my (bottlecap) sound for me sounds like a penny/dime on their machine. So I like that part.
Now the aluminum wine caps or alcholic beverage caps are a different matter and can be quite disappointing to unearth one of them buggers at 10 inches.
NebTrac
I have compared signals with other detectorists using different machines and they will say my (bottlecap) sound for me sounds like a penny/dime on their machine. So I like that part.
Now the aluminum wine caps or alcholic beverage caps are a different matter and can be quite disappointing to unearth one of them buggers at 10 inches.
NebTrac
Well, I'm no pro with the E-Trac yet but the only times I get busted on iron is when I decide to dig that iffy signal. Now chasing nickels as said above can get you some misleads but I have to say the ratio of nickels to trash is much better. Me being ever hopeful of borderline signals I guess I'm going to dig my fair share of junk though.
Thank you Bill for sharing that with us. Yes, I dont like to dig bottle caps, although I dont hunt many spots where they are a problem but have found out the aluminum variety are a pain, I usually just learn their numbers and ignore them the rest of the day. But its not only the old steel bottle caps that can give you a coin signal. Although I am new with the E-Trac, iffy signals arent new to me or any other machine. I dig a lot of these, find some very nice finds even though I dig a lot of trash. I dont do this all the time because, I may just not be in the right frame of mind to do so.
My favorite places to hunt are old plantation sites, full of old nails and other iron targets that are rusting in the ground. One of the thoughts, ideas I had when purchasing the E-Trac was the use of TTF to use in these areas. And I see many use it with a lot of success. I just havent had the time to get to know it. But I have had time over the last several weeks to use the E-Trac in my old house spots in town that are loaded with old iron and modern type trash. And I am loving it in these sites, I have used it with a custom pattern someone sent me from another forum, I really like that pattern. No way, I can hunt these spots with wide open screen or even just a tad of FE knocked out. Not at this point anyway, maybe later, dunno yet.
What has been a problem for me, is the high tones and good numbers you can get from the iron,I have dug a lot of it. Ive dug it with other machines as well and a lot of it. I just havent got to the point to where I can use or experience the see thru capabilities I have read so much about. So I dig the iffies, looking for that edge many of the other guys have learned.
My first few hours were difficult. But Im finding coins now, not deep, and found coins with iron close by but definetly not in the same hole as the coin. I found 4 wheaties and 2 memorials yesterday and a few clad pieces, lot of trash, and some trash jewelry. But all of these were not real close to any trash targets.
One of my biggest problem is getting use to the double d coils, I have always used concentrics. Its hard for me to size a target, even using sizing pinpoint. I sized a Dime, yesterday and it led me to believe it was a narrow target width wise but also led me to believe it was maybe three to five, six inches long. I dug and it was a dime, I rescanned and nothing else was in the hole. But, I am pinpointing much better than I was even three days ago.
Well, Ive gotten way off topic and I apologize.
Yes, I dig iffies. I dig iffies because of the posibilites, not all the time. I am digging all the iffies for now, for educational, experience at the present, trying to learn this machine. I am not just digging, the iffies that are two way hits on one swing and turning 90 degrees and then get a so so signal or none at all, I am also digging those that may have a faint, deep sounding good tone, deep sounding being the key. Havent found anything but trash, but I do want to learn the sounds this machine makes and maybe once I hit a few of these signals and something is good mixed in with iron or is deep, I will begin to become more confident. What I have learned not to dig, I will swap over to quick mask and the FE number drops to the 30s and the target is shallow, I will not dig these. If it is down in the 8,9 inch range and giving me a high tone and decent Conductive number and the iron number is jumping, I dig. But the sound is first and it doesnt have to be a high tone, can be a low tone. Its the tones I wanna learn or try at least.
But using any machine, you never know about those iffies. I found a half dime one time that was about 6 inches down with iron around that didnt sound all that good but I just had that feeling and dug.
Happy New Year,
John
My favorite places to hunt are old plantation sites, full of old nails and other iron targets that are rusting in the ground. One of the thoughts, ideas I had when purchasing the E-Trac was the use of TTF to use in these areas. And I see many use it with a lot of success. I just havent had the time to get to know it. But I have had time over the last several weeks to use the E-Trac in my old house spots in town that are loaded with old iron and modern type trash. And I am loving it in these sites, I have used it with a custom pattern someone sent me from another forum, I really like that pattern. No way, I can hunt these spots with wide open screen or even just a tad of FE knocked out. Not at this point anyway, maybe later, dunno yet.
What has been a problem for me, is the high tones and good numbers you can get from the iron,I have dug a lot of it. Ive dug it with other machines as well and a lot of it. I just havent got to the point to where I can use or experience the see thru capabilities I have read so much about. So I dig the iffies, looking for that edge many of the other guys have learned.
My first few hours were difficult. But Im finding coins now, not deep, and found coins with iron close by but definetly not in the same hole as the coin. I found 4 wheaties and 2 memorials yesterday and a few clad pieces, lot of trash, and some trash jewelry. But all of these were not real close to any trash targets.
One of my biggest problem is getting use to the double d coils, I have always used concentrics. Its hard for me to size a target, even using sizing pinpoint. I sized a Dime, yesterday and it led me to believe it was a narrow target width wise but also led me to believe it was maybe three to five, six inches long. I dug and it was a dime, I rescanned and nothing else was in the hole. But, I am pinpointing much better than I was even three days ago.
Well, Ive gotten way off topic and I apologize.
Yes, I dig iffies. I dig iffies because of the posibilites, not all the time. I am digging all the iffies for now, for educational, experience at the present, trying to learn this machine. I am not just digging, the iffies that are two way hits on one swing and turning 90 degrees and then get a so so signal or none at all, I am also digging those that may have a faint, deep sounding good tone, deep sounding being the key. Havent found anything but trash, but I do want to learn the sounds this machine makes and maybe once I hit a few of these signals and something is good mixed in with iron or is deep, I will begin to become more confident. What I have learned not to dig, I will swap over to quick mask and the FE number drops to the 30s and the target is shallow, I will not dig these. If it is down in the 8,9 inch range and giving me a high tone and decent Conductive number and the iron number is jumping, I dig. But the sound is first and it doesnt have to be a high tone, can be a low tone. Its the tones I wanna learn or try at least.
But using any machine, you never know about those iffies. I found a half dime one time that was about 6 inches down with iron around that didnt sound all that good but I just had that feeling and dug.
Happy New Year,
John
you know this is a good thread because we are all out there on our own using this machine one on one and then we come here to discuss it and we might be thinking of different things. for me an iron false is the "good" hit you get when the coil moves away from a peice of iron. it doesnt sound good right on the target, only off to the edge of it. so what im saying is if i swing the coil directly over iron, i null. if i swing off to the edge of the iron, i get a "chirp of hope" from the etrac, and when i swing back, i get nothing. that to me is an iron false. sometimes you can get a flase to actually sound like a good coin. i think it depends on the size shape and orientation of the iron, and at what point over the target youre swinging. i have dug what i thought had a high potential to be a good coin that turned out to be relatively large peices of junk iron. iron falsing to me is so frustrating because its such a distraction, you have to sweep back over that same spot to see if you can get repeatability. if you can get that initial "grab ya" chirp, then swing back and get repeatability, usually its a coin and ive come to the point where i dont even hardly look at the numbers, i usually drop to the ground and start digging quick. its very similar to me like getting a bite when im fishing, as soon as i realize its a good bite, im down and digging!
but to be clear, in my mind - from what ive experienced, the "false" hit is always just off to the side of iron, as if there was a 4" halo around it, where if youre right on it, the etrac knows/sees the high FE, but on the ring/halo, maybe it doesnt see such a high FE but still sees the high CO and sounds off on that? (just a guess) its definitely being fooled by the iron but not repeatably. although you can keep getting a non-repeatable falsing if you keep swinging all around the iron target.
but to be clear, in my mind - from what ive experienced, the "false" hit is always just off to the side of iron, as if there was a 4" halo around it, where if youre right on it, the etrac knows/sees the high FE, but on the ring/halo, maybe it doesnt see such a high FE but still sees the high CO and sounds off on that? (just a guess) its definitely being fooled by the iron but not repeatably. although you can keep getting a non-repeatable falsing if you keep swinging all around the iron target.
I think it depends alot on the dirt your digging in as to wheather or not falsing fools you. Down here in amonst the hills the the difference between a river bottom and the top of an old rocky ridge is alot.Its not as easy on top where there is alot of limestone and minerals to deal with alot of the time. Even though the targets are not as deep in the rocky soil their numbers can be much higher on the ferrous side.
Thats why I can still find some good targets at these beat to death places,and yes I do get fooled with the iron falses only because I dig these higher numbers when checked with quick mask.
Now down in the river bottoms where the soil is rich and very deep I don't get fooled very often as the numbers come in more like they are supposed to and the false hits are easier to detect, the only exception to this is if I run into a vain of RED CLAY, which is the worst soil I have encountered.
Nebtrac is right,I hate those smashed aluminum caps, and haven't dug many of the old steel caps at all.
Thats why I can still find some good targets at these beat to death places,and yes I do get fooled with the iron falses only because I dig these higher numbers when checked with quick mask.
Now down in the river bottoms where the soil is rich and very deep I don't get fooled very often as the numbers come in more like they are supposed to and the false hits are easier to detect, the only exception to this is if I run into a vain of RED CLAY, which is the worst soil I have encountered.
Nebtrac is right,I hate those smashed aluminum caps, and haven't dug many of the old steel caps at all.
EtracTom-AdirondacksNY
New member
Bowie, Moonshine is righ on with what he wrote and that is how you do it. I think your right on track too but maybe trying to hard as I do sometimes to make it be a good target when it's not. I go to quick mask and that usually don't fool ya as the cursor will go down into the lower right hand corner area and as you sweep all around in a 360 it lets ya know it's iron by staying in that area.
Also like Moonshine said when you Pinpoint it and it's not where your getting the high chirps then it's iron as it chirps off the ends of it trying to fool with ya. Don't know if you guys know (it's all there in the manual) bit after hitting pinpoint you can rehit it and rehit it and it will shrink down the signal area to be smaller for more precise target pinpointing and this can possiably help you determine the size of the target too John.
What I do sometimes too is after pinpointing the iffy target and finding the center of where it supposedly is acording to doing the pinpoint I then resweep over that spot with the center sweet spot of the coil and see what it tells me and if it's different like it mostly is it's probably going to be junk. Doing this usually brings the signal in better if it is a good target as you are more precisely now over where the machine sees it to be in the ground.
The see through capability is just this if it nulls out you can still hear a good signal come through IF there is a good target there to be found. Has nothing to do with knocking out IRON per say just lets say there is a piece of something in the ground a not good target and a good target near it or next to it that other target can or might over power the good target and you won't hear it the Etrac will pick the signal from the good target instead of the bad target or discriminated out target and let it through to be heard is all it does it's in the manual written well worded. This is why you run TRASH HIGH it ignores to a point the less good targets that are discriminated.
Also like Moonshine said when you Pinpoint it and it's not where your getting the high chirps then it's iron as it chirps off the ends of it trying to fool with ya. Don't know if you guys know (it's all there in the manual) bit after hitting pinpoint you can rehit it and rehit it and it will shrink down the signal area to be smaller for more precise target pinpointing and this can possiably help you determine the size of the target too John.
What I do sometimes too is after pinpointing the iffy target and finding the center of where it supposedly is acording to doing the pinpoint I then resweep over that spot with the center sweet spot of the coil and see what it tells me and if it's different like it mostly is it's probably going to be junk. Doing this usually brings the signal in better if it is a good target as you are more precisely now over where the machine sees it to be in the ground.
The see through capability is just this if it nulls out you can still hear a good signal come through IF there is a good target there to be found. Has nothing to do with knocking out IRON per say just lets say there is a piece of something in the ground a not good target and a good target near it or next to it that other target can or might over power the good target and you won't hear it the Etrac will pick the signal from the good target instead of the bad target or discriminated out target and let it through to be heard is all it does it's in the manual written well worded. This is why you run TRASH HIGH it ignores to a point the less good targets that are discriminated.
This summer when it was bone dry the iron falses about dried up as well.It is my belief that the worst thing a new to E-Trac user can do is try running with very little disc in conductive tones as it allows way more iron to "creep" in and give a high chirp.Not as big an issue in TTF where most nails/small iron will give a low iron tone/grunt.
Once you get a good many hours on the E-Trac it becomes easier to lighten up on the disc but still does not improve coin signals very often for me.Less disc will allow more low conductors to sound better like small buttons and tokens but causes the deep rusty iron/nails to sound better as well.
Running the gain maxed or nearly so will also cause more falsing in my tests.
Running in preset coins program in auto+3, 4 tones or multi tones,high trash on is the best way to learn the E-Trac for turf hunting old deep coins in my opinion and does not handicap you at all.As a matter of fact it will cause your coins to trash ratio to be much better than with more open patterns.Obviously if you are hunting relics less disc would be better but for coins I find it to be counter productive at most sites unless the site is absolutely hammered to death and you are desperately trying to pull one or two more masked targets others may have missed and have the time to dig a lot of "iffy' targets.
The most important thing to learn is "trust" in the E-Trac's ability to do what it does best and that is pull the good targets out of the bad while running disc as high as the coins mode and even higher at ultra trashy sites with very minimal loss of depth.
Once you get a good many hours on the E-Trac it becomes easier to lighten up on the disc but still does not improve coin signals very often for me.Less disc will allow more low conductors to sound better like small buttons and tokens but causes the deep rusty iron/nails to sound better as well.
Running the gain maxed or nearly so will also cause more falsing in my tests.
Running in preset coins program in auto+3, 4 tones or multi tones,high trash on is the best way to learn the E-Trac for turf hunting old deep coins in my opinion and does not handicap you at all.As a matter of fact it will cause your coins to trash ratio to be much better than with more open patterns.Obviously if you are hunting relics less disc would be better but for coins I find it to be counter productive at most sites unless the site is absolutely hammered to death and you are desperately trying to pull one or two more masked targets others may have missed and have the time to dig a lot of "iffy' targets.
The most important thing to learn is "trust" in the E-Trac's ability to do what it does best and that is pull the good targets out of the bad while running disc as high as the coins mode and even higher at ultra trashy sites with very minimal loss of depth.
earthmansurfer
Active member
Having used a few machines and frequented a few forums, I've always understood falsing in two ways. The one you all discussed - repeatable iron signals or the like, well that is one type. I don't have that happen very often. But the other type, which might also be called "chatty" is falsing from having the sensitivity too high. Generally the signals don't repeat at all, so this "type" of falsing is pretty easy to look past. Machines like the F75 and T2 are quite chatty and false a bit in this manner. Perhaps it's wrong to call it falsing, but it is false. eehehhe
So far with the E-Trac if I hunt in auto, all the way up to +3, I don't see falsing of either the repeatable or chatty variety happen. (My ground is 1% mineralized but all of that is iron mineralization, so that part is heavy) When I get up to manual sensitivity in the 27 to 30 range, that is when I get repeatable falses. But as Tom and others said, you can usually easily distinguish them. That said, coins at extreme depths CAN and DO hit in the iron range. I haven't dug those myself but have read from some pretty good hunters with E-Tracs and other brands that dug coins hitting repeatably in the iron range. But, this isn't a false, is it? It's sort of the opposite
So far with the E-Trac if I hunt in auto, all the way up to +3, I don't see falsing of either the repeatable or chatty variety happen. (My ground is 1% mineralized but all of that is iron mineralization, so that part is heavy) When I get up to manual sensitivity in the 27 to 30 range, that is when I get repeatable falses. But as Tom and others said, you can usually easily distinguish them. That said, coins at extreme depths CAN and DO hit in the iron range. I haven't dug those myself but have read from some pretty good hunters with E-Tracs and other brands that dug coins hitting repeatably in the iron range. But, this isn't a false, is it? It's sort of the opposite
I started with the Minelabe coin mode. I couldnt help it, first few days, I experimented, But, I do remember all of the recommendations from users here and Andy's book, use the factory mode to learn on. I used that mode for the next several outings, until someone from another forum sent me a pattern, very similar to the factory pattern, but a bit more open and a bit more closed, still a lot of disc. but I am doing well with that pattern, at what I call my in town, old homes spots. Plus, I had changed locations to a less trashy spot, but still some history. But since I received this new pattern, I am going back to the nasty lots.
Ray mentioned gain, I have dropped from 24 gain to 20.
Ok, Im feeling more confident in this type of hunt. The iffies and iron falsing, I am learning my way to handle these, mostly based on what Ive learned from my other machines, but now with a new avenue using FE numbers and a quick mask screen (opened up). Plus, I can think of other ideas to investigate a signal, for future use, once I get more confident.
Discrimination, I just cant or couldnt help it as Ive always used minimal disc with my other machines. OK, I was wrong, as I found out for myself, less disc is bad to learn this machine. But I am cooking now, or at least learning to cook. I just keep having ideas of missing a signal while the machine is in a null.
TTF, I have used TTF with enough disc to knock out nails, bottom lower right of screen disced out. I hear the grunts, but I hear very many high tones as well. And I hear that high tone, and at this point in my use of TTF, I have to spend some time to investigate, and Im sure all of you understand because you have already been there, its time consuming. Do any of you, using TTF, use any more disc than what I mentioned?
Im sorry, it just went against my experience and learning, to use that much disc. So, Ive altered my thinking. But now, I need to get a handle on the use of TTF and old plantation sites located in farm fields.
Also, if any of you hunt old farm fields, do you use any alternative setups other than TTF and are you successful with it??? Im curious if anyone is using Multi Conductive in these sites?? Im curious if TTF is better so you can move a bit faster??
God Im long winded, and I am sorry,forgive me.
Happy New Year
John
Ray mentioned gain, I have dropped from 24 gain to 20.
Ok, Im feeling more confident in this type of hunt. The iffies and iron falsing, I am learning my way to handle these, mostly based on what Ive learned from my other machines, but now with a new avenue using FE numbers and a quick mask screen (opened up). Plus, I can think of other ideas to investigate a signal, for future use, once I get more confident.
Discrimination, I just cant or couldnt help it as Ive always used minimal disc with my other machines. OK, I was wrong, as I found out for myself, less disc is bad to learn this machine. But I am cooking now, or at least learning to cook. I just keep having ideas of missing a signal while the machine is in a null.
TTF, I have used TTF with enough disc to knock out nails, bottom lower right of screen disced out. I hear the grunts, but I hear very many high tones as well. And I hear that high tone, and at this point in my use of TTF, I have to spend some time to investigate, and Im sure all of you understand because you have already been there, its time consuming. Do any of you, using TTF, use any more disc than what I mentioned?
Im sorry, it just went against my experience and learning, to use that much disc. So, Ive altered my thinking. But now, I need to get a handle on the use of TTF and old plantation sites located in farm fields.
Also, if any of you hunt old farm fields, do you use any alternative setups other than TTF and are you successful with it??? Im curious if anyone is using Multi Conductive in these sites?? Im curious if TTF is better so you can move a bit faster??
God Im long winded, and I am sorry,forgive me.
Happy New Year
John
my next door nieghbor had an old camp trailer that was dumped on his property. Apparently the previous owner liked to save pull tabs and had a butt-load of them. When we hauled it off the tabs made they're way to the ground somehow. There musta been hundreds of them. I wanted to see what the ET would do there and figured there must be a coin or two there. Well it was almost a constant null all the time,,,,,cept when there was a coin under the coil...... it made a beliver out of me,,,,, the ET will hit a good target during a null. Maybe not ALL of them but it made me feel allot better about not missing good targets when nulled, just make sure the "trash high" is on and as the book says, the ET will sound off on the accepted target and not the rejected one,,,,
EtracTom-AdirondacksNY
New member
TTF is a different animal and works I think just the opposite of conductive mode and that mode working best WITH discrimination. In TTF I run wide open quick mask with just the top most 01 line across to 30 conductive blacked out to stop the falseing from iron wrap around. It's pretty quiet now where as before I ran it wide open and got a lot of falsing from the iron but after adding in just that little black line across the top leaving it open on the far right end for the large silver it is pretty good and quiet now.
The KEY to TTF in iron like your describing John is you will have to GO SLOW no 2 ways around it with all that iron and listen for the high tone hits then check them out numbers wise and cursor wise any other way you feel you need to to decide whether to dig or not.
In parks if I try it I can go a bit faster as there isn't too many high tone hits as I have pounded the places with Conductive mode with te coins discrimination pattern already so I'm just trying see if I can find that one last hold out good coin or jewlery being extremely masked I might have missed before.
The KEY to TTF in iron like your describing John is you will have to GO SLOW no 2 ways around it with all that iron and listen for the high tone hits then check them out numbers wise and cursor wise any other way you feel you need to to decide whether to dig or not.
In parks if I try it I can go a bit faster as there isn't too many high tone hits as I have pounded the places with Conductive mode with te coins discrimination pattern already so I'm just trying see if I can find that one last hold out good coin or jewlery being extremely masked I might have missed before.
ironman200081
Active member
Good information here.
The falsies that get me the most are the rusty circular-head bolts. These sound good (dime) when sweeping two directions. I get so excited that I dig without running Quickmask. I have a hard time thinking through a target hit when the high squeak causes my silver fever to come on.
The falsies that get me the most are the rusty circular-head bolts. These sound good (dime) when sweeping two directions. I get so excited that I dig without running Quickmask. I have a hard time thinking through a target hit when the high squeak causes my silver fever to come on.