Finally broke into the 1700's!

[kraykepler]

I was taken by a friend to a spot that used to be an old stagecoach route back in the 1700's. The area is quite large and has been hit for a few years. I was lucky enough to find a nice hot spot, where I spent most of my time. I managed to find 10 flat buttons and my first and second King George II's. No dates are visible, they're kinda crusty, but I'll take them! I used my Omega, 11 inch coil, GB 66, sens 99, 3 tones, and no disc. The coins and buttons were all 6-10 inches deep. It was a great day!

 

[pulltab]

nice

 

[Monte]

adding your detector model and settings. It does help, especially when you indicate the coins and buttons were 6"-10" deep!. Knowing you used the 11" DD coil, Ground Phase was set at 66, Sensitivity was 99, you favored the 3 tones audio, and "no disc" means the Omega had a Disc. setting of '1' means a lot to many of us.

While I usually use the 10" concentric or 5" DD for most of the sites I hunt due to the site environment, I do appreciate the fact that the 11" DD coil can get a bit deeper, which you verified. Most of my area's Ground Phase is more in the '74' to '78' range so I wish I had better ground like you did. I, too, run with '99' Sensitivity whenever I can, which is often around town and almost always when I get away from local EMI. There's quite a difference and deep-target audio saturation at those higher Sensitivity settings. Most of the time I prefer d2 or d4 for Audio Tones, but I almost always keep my Disc. setting at '1' as you did. So, it's good that we post such things in our finds reports as many can compare your results with theirs based upon the difference in coil choice and control settings.

I wish you the best of success on your next visit as, who knows, there just might be another oldie or two at the site.

Monte

 

[Cal_Cobra]

Nice hunting, I'd definitely hit that site again (and again, and again) Try the 5" as well as the 10" coils on your Omega, as they'll all uncover different targets, surly there must be some 1700's silver waiting for you there

Most of my area's Ground Phase is more in the '74' to '78' range so I wish I had better ground like you did.
Monte

Monte as I understand the Ground Phase scale (the ground balance scale, not the Fe3O4 4-segment bargraph), a higher number indicates better soil (less mineralization) and a lower is worse soil (higher mineralization). For instance, in most of Florida's turf they have inert soil (no mineral content), so there's no need to ground balance the O8, as the machine can be left at the factory default of a 90 GB setting. On the other hand if one wanted to hunt a salt water beach, you would ground balance to 0 or 1 in order to cancel the ground minerals out. I know this is true on the F75, F70 and F5, and would assume the O8 follows suit.

HH,
Brian

 

[kraykepler]

"Nice hunting, I'd definitely hit that site again (and again, and again) Try the 5" as well as the 10" coils on your Omega, as they'll all uncover different targets, surly there must be some 1700's silver waiting for you there :thumbup"

Not sure how to do the quote-in-a-box thing for the above.
I'd love to hunt the area again, but I was a guest (thanks NHBob!), and I live 9 hours away. I'm just glad to have had the opportunity and know that conditions were perfect for yesterday (the grass is very rarely cut in this area, and it had just been mowed). We'll see what happens over Thanksgiving. As for the other coils, I doubt that I'd want to try them. The finds were deep and there wasn't too much trash. The main culprit was foil, which would give a large range of readings, from 50-99, and I'd find the junk up to 8 inches down. Strange how modern stuff is down where 250 year old coins and buttons were. The coins and buttons almost always gave a reading in the 50's, except for a deep button that was at a measured 10 inches down, and at a slant, which gave a 99. Just about all signals were relatively strong and repeatable; the ones that weren't were usually foul or nails. I found a small cuff-sized button at 6 inches. The Omega rocks!

Ray

 

[Monte]

is sometimes a bit challenging for folks to understand. Heck, I'm only an avid detectorist and not an engineer so I might feed it to you wrong ... but I don't think so.

Most of my area's Ground Phase is more in the '74' to '78' range so I wish I had better ground like you did.
Monte

Monte as I understand the Ground Phase scale (the ground balance scale, not the Fe3O4 4-segment bargraph), a higher number indicates better soil (less mineralization) and a lower is worse soil (higher mineralization). For instance, in most of Florida's turf they have inert soil (no mineral content), so there's no need to ground balance the O8, as the machine can be left at the factory default of a 90 GB setting. On the other hand if one wanted to hunt a salt water beach, you would ground balance to 0 or 1 in order to cancel the ground minerals out. I know this is true on the F75, F70 and F5, and would assume the O8 follows suit.

Brian,

The T2 has a default Ground Cancel/Ground Phase setting of '90' and the Omega starts up with a Ground Cancel/Ground Phase setting of '82'. Another model that Dave Johnson had work with was the White's MXT which fires up with a default Ground Phase of '83.' So, what do there default/preset Ground Cancel or Ground Balance or Ground Phase settings mean? The higher numbers ('82' or '83' or '90' are factored for the particular models and represent where pure "ferrite" is about rejected, or should I actually say, "ignored." Pure ferrite, of which I have three different samples here by my computer, represent some of the more mineralized ground you might encounter. Yes, some can be worse, but it is about "bad enough" for most typical hunting environments.

Using my T2, which is here beside me as my Omega is in the van, i note that turning it on and increasing the Sensitivity to about '85' and then menuing to Manual G.C (Ground Cancel), my piece of ferrite are almost perfectly "ignored." That is, they do not produce and audio increase or decrease when bobbed to within 2" of the center of the 11" DD coil. If I search over less mineralized ground and I need to lower the ground Cancel via Fast-Grab or manually adjust to, let's say, a setting of '68' from the stock '90', then I might have a spot-on GB for that particular ground, but if I check the T2 with the "ferrite" samples then I get a nulling as they near the coil, and a 'beep' as I quickly move them away from the coil. In other words, a setting of '68' is lower than the "mineralized" ferrite samples. Equally, if i was set at the default '90' G.C or Ground Phase, then lowering the coil from about 6" toward the ground that calls for a setting of '68' produces an audio response as I near the coil to the ground. Why? Because the more positive (higher G.P Read-Out) is too positive for that mellower ground mineral environment.

The Omega and T2 have Ground Cancel or Ground Phase adjustment that ranges from "salt water" to ferrite. Pure ferrite and other higher mineralized environments call for a higher number to ignore or reject the ground signal. Nice and pure salt water, where there is very little iron mineralization, calls for a Ground Cancel or Ground Phase setting that is much lower, such as maybe 1 or 5 or ??? Now, this isn't always going to be "perfect" because some wet sand environments are also associated with mineralized beaches, which is a really tough test for beach hunters here in Oregon and other places with wet salt sand mixed with very mineralized sand. .

Often, if a mixed ground environment, you have to balance for the iron mineralized ground and also, to a degree, for the salty wet sand, but there are trade-offs. Then, hunting in the motion Discriminate mode, use just enough low-end Discrimination to reject the low-conductive wetted salts. Trade-offs, that's all. The Fisher's and Teknetics and models like the White's MXT or XL Pro and many competitors models also call for a larger number (higher-setting) to reject highly mineralized ground, and lower numbers (lower Ground Phase) in milder or mellow ground where iron mineralization is lower. A few makes, such as Minelab, do the opposite with their X-Terra series where a smaller number represents a higher GB/GC/GP setting and a higher (larger) number represents a lower ground mineral condition.

Note that if you just turn on a T2, with a Ground Phase setting of '90', or an Omega with a preset Ground Phase setting of '82', and start detecting a site without first doing a Fast-Grab or Ground Grab, and you're hunting a site where the ground has a lower mineralization level, such as maybe '68' you'll note the difference If you check in the pinpoint or All Metal mode, the audio Threshold increases as the coil nears the ground because it's too positive. If you are sweeping the Omega coil and look at the Ground Error read-out, you will see a few bars ABOVE the main-line. This is an alert that your GB setting is too positive for the ground. Once you use Ground Grab or even fine-tune the Omega DOWN from '82' to '68' you have a proper Ground Cancel setting for the LOWER mineralization from the default HIGHER MINERALIZATION default Ground Phase of '82.'

I hope this helps.

Monte

 

[Keith Southern]

n/t

 

[Cal_Cobra]

Monte thanks for the detailed explanation. It's interesting as it's a little different then how NasaTom (Tom Dankowoski) describes it

 

[Monte]

And by the way, I am pleased with the way these models, like the MXT that are tied in with Dave Johnson, come with a decent factory default for the Ground Cancel or Ground Phase. By using a '90' on the T2 or '82' on the Omega, it shows that the manufacturer cares enough to make sure the detector ought to be at least "turn-on-and-go" for anyone w/o the falsing in the Disc. mode that so very often is seen with models like the Tesoro DeLe

 

[Cal_Cobra]

Monte thanks for the additional info. I read this from the manual before, it's pretty much the standard First Texas Ground Balancing info since the CZ line, but always good for a refresher.

Still I was unsure about the correlation with "good" (or bad) dirt having a higher or lower GB (ground phase) number, so I asked Mr. Dankowski to further clarify it. Here are his thoughts:

"The Grnd Bal numbers are only an indication of the TYPE of dirt.....................and has nearly NOTHING to do with the VOLUME of mineralization. This is also to say; you may have someone with a Grnd Bal of... say '43' in Illinois. And another person with the EXACT same Grnd Bal number of '43'.....but he is located in N. Georgia. The guy in Georgia can properly ID a penny to a depth of 1". The guy in Illinois can properly ID a penny to 8". They both have the same TYPE of mineralization...............but the guy in Georgia has a much higher VOLUME of mineralization; posing the greatest handicap.

Same thing can happen with two different people.........in two different States.......and both of them having a Grnd Bal of... say '93'. The numeric Grnd Bal ID is not nearly as important....as the VOLUME of mineralization. A better indices would be the Fe3O4 bargraph (magnetite). "

 

[Monte]

For example, let's take this part of what Dankowski stated:

...I asked Mr. Dankowski to further clarify it. Here are his thoughts:

"... This is also to say; you may have someone with a Grnd Bal of... say '43' in Illinois. And another person with the EXACT same Grnd Bal number of '43'.....but he is located in N. Georgia. The guy in Georgia can properly ID a penny to a depth of 1". The guy in Illinois can properly ID a penny to 8". They both have the same TYPE of mineralization...............but the guy in Georgia has a much higher VOLUME of mineralization; posing the greatest handicap.

Maybe, but not quite, unless the guy in Georgia clearly states that his FE[sub]3[/sub]O[sub]4[/sub] readings were more pronounced than the fellow's in Illinois.

...I asked Mr. Dankowski to further clarify it. Here are more of his thoughts:
Same thing can happen with two different people.........in two different States.......and both of them having a Grnd Bal of... say '93'. The numeric Grnd Bal ID is not nearly as important....as the VOLUME of mineralization. A better indices would be the Fe3O4 bargraph (magnetite). "

He already gave an example of two guys in two different states with similar Ground Phase read-outs so the ONLY difference this time is that he IS correct in clarifying what the "difference" between the two sites might be. That is, two places with similar Ground Phase readings might have differing levels (amounts or volume) of FE[sub]3[/sub]O[sub]4[/sub] mineralization to deal with.

However, with that said, I have hunted sites near me where a Ground Phase reading might be in the 80-84 range and then move to a site where the Ground Phase appears to be mellower and consistently in the 63-66 range. This can be in the same park with the same moisture level and similar ground conditions/compactness, but what I was referring to is that while at these two locations, with a proper Ground Cancel adjustment, the FE[sub]3[/sub]O[sub]4[/sub] readings are virtually identical. Essentially none or very little change showing. So, even those that's NOT a factor, the simple fact that with a nice and proper Ground Cancel setting, you'll more often see a little better depth or target response form the areas with a lower Ground Phase adjustment than from areas with more "mineralization," even if it isn't loaded with magnetite.

Just a little common logic as it relates to Ground Balancing and the signal processing that has to take place in "bad" vs "good" ground conditions. For clarification I'd suggest you ask Dave Johnson.

Monte

 

[Jackpine Savage]

that in the absence of iron minerals the readings from salt beaches are an approximation of the conductive value, something like that anyway as I did not look it up. Anway, it is my understanding that the phase reading of the ground is influenced by more than iron mineralization. For instance the Lake Michigan beaches I hunt are mostly sugar sand (quartz) and despite having little to no iron mineralization (no Fe bars) they give high phase readings. This could be partially due to the hard water of our lakes (calcium carbonate) in combination with the fact that even though iron mineralization is low, it is still the predominate mineral. Some soils are conductive like my beaches and some are resistive, probably more like yours.

Each and every situation is different and only an analysis of the soil showing the relative amounts of conductive and resistive qualities would give the whole picture.

Tom

 

[Monte]

it's correct that there are many differences that can affect a targets detection potential. I've used quite an assortment of different challenges through the years with different makes and models, and even with a few different manufacturers, that will really cut a detector's detection potential. I am referring,to NON ground objects. No sand, no dirt, no rocks.

In the end, however, I have found in 46 years of detecting that generally more mineralized ground (meaning on that calls for a higher Ground Phase or Ground Balance setting) tend to have more negative bearing on the results than those sites that are much mellower. Forget the FE[sub]3[/sub]O[sub]4[/sub] stuff, just other factors.

An example, you can take anyone with their favorite coin and jewelry hunting unit and have them hunt most Florida beaches and many inland sites. Once they are comfortable with the settings and Ground Balance and sweep speed and the DEPTH THEY ACIEVE, bring them out to some of my favorite Utah and Nevada ghost towns and old pioneer encampments, or up here to NW Oregon and have them go "beach hunting" along the Willamette or Columbia Rivers and use the same detector and setting. They should not expect the same depth of detection as on a Florida beach. The difference wouldn't be with the make or model, the Sensitivity or Discriminate settings, just with the Ground Balance required and the challenges presented by 'bad ground."

Monte

 

[Cal_Cobra]

Monte I understand everything your saying, but I still think the analogy is backwards to an extent For example, in Florida the turf is mainly non-mineralized inert sandy soil, it's like detecting air. The machines will typically GB at the top of their range, a F75 for example will probably GB at 90 (a friend that lives there didn't even GB his F70 because there's no point and he got great depth with it at the default of 90) Barring masking by co-located targets, machines will achieve their maximum possible potential depth in that environment. Out here in California where (much like Oregon) the soil is complex, and can run from tame to highly mineralized (typically more on the mineralized side in most areas), a challenging area might GB in the 40's to high 50's on my F75.

 

[Monte]

"on site" by the two or three people discussing the GB function and the particular makes/models in question. there are some makes and models which, regardless of the ground you're at, will reject a silver dollar or silver half if the GB control is set too positive, such as a Tesoro Bandido. Others that can do that if the Discriminate control is advanced too far, such as a Tesoro Sidewinder