:help:Trying to learn the tones.

[John - Maryland]

n/t

 

[Vesuvius]

"There is a lot of hoopla with learning the tones and all, with this CD coming available. IMO, it is more important you dig anything that gives you tone, at least in the surf/wet sand. Some of the targets just don't sound like a perfectly placed level target, as on a CD. If you get tone, you'd better be digging it. You would not believe some of the nasty tones I've dug and they turned out to be gold. I've said my piece, do as you will."



Good Points! The CD agrees with you and talks about bias closer to water and has tones on edge.

 

[Critterhunter]

Here's an interesting experiment...Take a gold ring, a nickle, and 4 or 5 pulltabs and place one of each in small seperate containers that you can't see into. Black film canisters would be ideal for this. Now mix them up on a table so you have no clue what is in each one. Place them on the ground and sweep over them. Don't look at the meter on your GT if you have one. See if you can pick out the gold ring and nickle. Preferably you'll have a gold ring that reads exactly the same VDI # as at least one of the pull tabs. I'm getting ready to do this experiment and will post my results. I would expect (or at least hope) that a gold ring with even a very near or exact VDI # as one or more of the tabs will have a more telling, rounder, smoother, softer, warmer sound to it. I've found this to be somewhat true on previous machines I've owned but believe the GT is even better at making this distinction. Only the blind test will prove it.

 

[erikk]

There is a lot of hoopla with learning the tones and all, with this CD coming available. IMO, it is more important you dig anything that gives you tone, at least in the surf/wet sand. Some of the targets just don't sound like a perfectly placed level target, as on a CD. If you get tone, you'd better be digging it. You would not believe some of the nasty tones I've dug and they turned out to be gold. I've said my piece, do as you will.

Agree 100% year 45 water hunting & counting

 

[Vesuvius]

Great Discussion...Found this in the audio forum.

Just received that CD from Kellyco today. I have listened to part of it. If you want the conceptual tools to analyze any sound you hear from any detector, that CD will provide it. Yeah! It's specifically written/produced for the Excalibur but the way sound is broken down and explained can be used in any detector application. To me, deciphering those sounds I hear using the knowlege provided in this CD is equally as important as Andy's book is for the Explorer and the E-Trac.
Ear training is nothing new. (It is new to the detector world) Colleges teaching music have classes that are totally created to teach 'Ear Training.' It's so important to musicians that it is now taught complete with text and powerful CDs with which to practice. Several years ago it was thought you either had a good ear or you didn't. A lot of talented musicians can't read a score to save their lives. But, they can play with any group or Orchestra. One that comes to mind is Chet Atkins. Saw him play with some philharmonic group and I know he can't read.
The people in the music education community learned this and now teach it. Just like mathematics has symbols and numbers that help the student calcualte what needs to be done to solve the problem, there are similar concepts in sound analysis, if you learn them, that will give you the tools to be a better discriminator than the discriminator built into your detector. There are things such as attack pitch, sustain, release and a lot more. In math most know what "+", "-" etc. mean and how to decipher what to do. If you know what attack, sustain, etc, mean and where they enter into the sound you hear from the detector you can decipher more clearly what the detector is telling you.
If you want to you can dig 1000 holes an maybe learn to associate a particular sound to a particular object, but if you want to go a different route and expedite your ability to discriminate your detectors sounds, get this CD and study it as hard as you did Andy's book.
Nope! I dont' work for the creator of this CD. I didn't know his name until I saw it on the CD. If you were my best detcting friend, I would insist you get that CD and study it. That's the best endorsement I can give. Regards...Jim

 

[comisoas]

THE BIG QUESTION IS: WILL THE CD BE APPLICABLE TO GT USERS ALSO????? ARE THE SOUNDS IDENTICAL BETWEEN THE TWO DETECTORS?

The answer is "No"....Hope this helps



FAQ Updated April 10th 2008



Where can I purchase the CD?

The CD is only available at Kellyco
http://www.kellycodetectors.com/accessories/excalibur_traning_cd.htm

Can I ear train with this CD if I hunt with a GT?

First I would tell you to listen to the sample clip on the audio player. It has clean samples of Penny (Clad) signals and Dime (Clad) signals. You can compare them to how the Penny and Dime sound on your Sovereign.

I find the sounds are related but NOT the same. In fact when I hunt with my GT it throws off my ear a bit in my signal recognition. Thus I would recommend against using the BETFE CD to train for hunting with the GT. (The CD will help in learning a fundamental approach to how you listen and evaluate the sounds)

I have been hunting with my Excal for years and I know it inside out...Do I need this CD?

No, The BETFE CD is a resource for new Excal owners or for those who do not get out often enough to build confidence in their signal recognition.

What settings did you use on your Excal when recording the signals?

Discrimination: Minimum possible
Volume: 1:00
Sensitivity: 10:00
Threshold: Just under audible (very slight but you have to stretch to listen for it)

Is there a difference in the signals between the Excal and Excal II signal tones?

The signals are the same. The Excal II has a slightly faster attack, sustain and release. I believe this is due to the Tornado coil. But the voicing of the signals is the same. I have verified this on tape with side by side comparisons.

Are you considering doing Ear Training CD's with other detectors?

Possibly, it depends on the feedback and need from the detectorist community. The Excal was the ideal detector for an Ear Training CD because the coil and headphones tend to be common to most Excal hunters. A GT might have a WOT coil with Gray Ghost or Rat Ear phones and suddenly there are too many variables that can influence the sound.

Why Do I need an Ear Training CD if I dig everything?

If you dig everything you do not need an ear training CD! But the point of eartraining is to help you master your detector. The one rule constantly emphasized on the CD is to 'Read the conditions and apply your eartraining accordingly'.

Discrimination through ear training is an acquired skill that you can turn on or off as you read your hunting environment. But if you do not have the skill you cannot access it when you need it. Thus there is no debating that knowing your detector better will make you a more effective detectorist. The art of detecting with Excalibur is when, where and to what degree you apply your ear training abilities.

Why is this Ear Training CD Unique?

This CD is the first time that principles of sound engineering have been applied to detecting signal recognition. It establishes terminology and definitions for the science of listening to these signals and the art of applying them.

Some of the concepts defined and discussed are: Signal Quality, Signal Shape, Attack, Sustain, Release, Signal Tone and Signal Intensity. Also concepts like the rule of "A high frequency of sameness" as well as a "water bias" Again concepts like "Fresh Ears" and "Signal Checks" are covered in detail. Sonic Signatures and Sonic Markers as well as Classic vs Anomaly gold are explained and discussed as well.

In summary there is simply nothing else like this CD on the market. For example: How do you verbally explain to someone the difference between a nickle signal, an aluminum poptop signal and a gold ring?

The answer is you "Play Clear samples of the signals right next to each other for A-B comparisons. Then you can point out the differences and the sonic signatures of each target.

What is the Sonic Marker for Aluminum? For Bottlecaps? For Gold? For Silver? All covered with samples and side by side comparisons on the CD.

Is Ear Training an effective way of identifying all signals?

No, The deeper a target is and the more worn/weathered a target is the harder it is to try and identify by ear. This is noticeable on signals such as bottlecaps where they can sound "round" when they are deep and yet when you get closer or dump them out of the scoop you can hear the broken sustain and classic bottle cap sound.

On the CD you say "read your conditions and adjust your ear training accordingly. Can you give an example of this?

Knowing your hunting environment is critical. A penny signal could be a very critical dig if you know that you are on an old lakeside beach that can produce Indian Head Pennies or perhaps a Flying Eagle.

Why is there so much confusion about what "Gold" sounds like?

When I first started hunting with Excalibur I was told Gold sounds like Bottlecaps. It doesn't. I have read advice on the forums saying it sounds like Pulltabs while others say it sounds like Nickles. In fact Gold sounds like Gold. Pulltabs sound like Pulltabs. A subset of Gold can sound like Pulltabs. Thus once you understand the overlap and hear the sounds next to each other it adds alot of clarity to what sounds like what. The Nickle gets alot of good press because it has a long smooth attack, a round sustain and a long smooth release. But a Nickle does NOT sound like the classic Excal gold signals.

Hearing the various signals next to each other really clears up the differences. Understanding "anomaly gold" helps to clarify the similarities and how it applies to the hunt.

How do you use the CD?

Since I have heard it often I tend to listen to the Beach Hunting Review Module. I like it because it moves along at a good pace and it is easy to contrast the common signals. Once you have listened to the "Signal Revew Chapter" a few times you will know what to listen for in the respective signals. After a while you will gravitate towards the "Training Runs" and "Beach Hunting Review Module"

Do you hunt the dry sand differently than you hunt the wet sand and water?

Yes...The dry sand has more trash and this can actually be helpful in that your ear is contantly being refreshed. In effect the large amount of trash signals help to maintain your relative pitch. In the dry sand I pass all bottlecaps and if it is very trashy I pass on the poptops with pronounced mids. I still end up digging some poptops in that some of them have a shade more of grainyness that makes me want to check them out. Yes you do have more of a chance of missing the anomoly gold but you cover more ground this way. Again if it does not sound exactly like a pop top (ear checks) I dig them.

Why should I ear train with a CD when I have been advised to "pay my dues and learn the machine by digging"?

The advice to "learn as much as possible by digging as much as possible" is excellent advice. It is the ultimate means of becoming one with your machine. But why not do both? By ear training you can DRAMATICALLY speed up the learning curve. In effect you are learning by tapping into someone elses advice and experience. You then take the pearls and lessons learned and you apply them to your treasure hunting. When I was in the military I remember shooting an M16 similator. It was a great tool but not meant to replace the process of live fire with a real M16.

Thus there is currently a controversy on the forums as to the viability of learning from recorded sounds. The current argument seems to be split between those who say "it works" and those who say "it will not". I do not buy into either side as for me the question is "can it help"? Will it give you valuable insights into the temperment and personality of your detector? Can it give you pointers and insights into how to listen and what to listen for? Will it help you decide when to apply these teaching points and when to just dig everything? I know the answers to these questions is a resounding yes!!!

I also know the old timers are right when they say get out and use your machine as much as possible! The 2 points supplement each other! Ear training and live hunting are inseparable. Live hunts will always have the edge on real world conditions. A CD will always have the edge on the convenience factor. Also bear in mind that a CD like a book is only as good as the person that made it. And finally the Excalibur is the "saxophone" of all metal detectors. It gives a wealth of nuance of information that most detectors cannot emulate. The excal does not have a screen because it does not need one.

HH
Tony

These are some of the questions I have been asked on the forums. Contact me if you have others and I will answer them here.

Very much, thanks

 

[Critterhunter]

I'm trying my theory of proper notching to eliminate most tabs (see splitting hairs thread) but another method I plan to test is listening for the difference in sound of gold rings and tabs, even ones with identical #s. I'm going to post the results of that when I do the above tests I talked about.

 

[time4me]

I have the CD and have listened to it several times now. I do believe it is helpful in many ways.

I do have an issue thought, with air testing the Excalibur. Just yesterday I went out to my back yard and threw down a 14K heavy mans wedding band, an 18K heavy mans wedding band, a quarter, a dime and a penny. I could barely hear any difference in the tones from each of these signals. Only after many swings could I hear the slightest decrease in pitch over the gold rings than I was getting from the coins. I was really hoping I'd hear a very pronounced difference in the pitches between the gold coins and the coins like I hear on Tony's CD.

Does anyone else have this problem?

Jim

 

[Electro]

I have the CD and have listened to it several times now. I do believe it is helpful in many ways.

I do have an issue thought, with air testing the Excalibur. Just yesterday I went out to my back yard and threw down a 14K heavy mans wedding band, an 18K heavy mans wedding band, a quarter, a dime and a penny. I could barely hear any difference in the tones from each of these signals. Only after many swings could I hear the slightest decrease in pitch over the gold rings than I was getting from the coins. I was really hoping I'd hear a very pronounced difference in the pitches between the gold coins and the coins like I hear on Tony's CD.

Does anyone else have this problem?

Jim

Hey Jim....Questions for you...How old is your Excalibur? Did you buy it new or used?

 

[time4me]

Hey Jim....Questions for you...How old is your Excalibur? Did you buy it new or used?

Hi Electro,

My Excalilbur 1000 is around 2.5 to 3 years old.

I am hoping that the problem has to do with throwing the items on the grass in my back yard - maybe there's electical interference going on or something that I wouldn't experience on a beach with items buried 6" to 12" deep.

Jim

 

[Electro]

Hey Jim...Here is another possibilty. Excal headphones can get stale with time and hard use. When you think about it we are taking a pair of speakers and subjecting them to all sorts of knocks, Temperature changes in a hot car and just the everyday wear and tear of heavy use in water. The excal is well built but after a while all the little things can add up. All of us know the feeling of leaning the detector against the car and hearing the swish as it slides and falls on the pavement. (I now place it on the ground because if it is there it cannot fall down lol)

I went through the same thing with my Excal at about the 2 year mark (after very heavy use) and I sent it in for a new set of earphones. They replaced it with the same model headphones but the difference in clarity, separation and tone quality was dramatic.

You might want to meet up with someone local who has a newer excal and try the same test with their excal. If you are hearing the differences on the CD that you cannot duplicate with your detector your headphones might be stale.

Let us know what you find out.