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Hey Monte, or anyone that wants to reply. Now I'm looking for a technical answer.

NH Bob

New member
Get as technical as you like.
Some machines run on a 9 volt battery, some on 4 AAs, some on battery packs like the Whites and Explorer which uses the equivalent of 8 AAs.
QUESTION - How much voltage or Amps (I like volts Because I understand it better) does it take to power the coil or send and receive the signal? And I assume the surplus is used for all the bells and whistles that most like to play with.
To make it simpler lets compare the XT70 and the Explorer using what seems like the basic 10.5" DD coil.
After saying that I realize the Explorer is pumping out what? 28 frequencies. But lets toss this around a little.
 
Bob I don't have a clue but will guess. since the coil on a detector is basically used to produce an em field I suppose it all boils down to how well they control losses in the system (design efficiency). The better designed the coil and the choice of voltage used to drive the current (amps) thru the coil all probably come into play. Irregardless its very low power and I probably got most of it wrong anyway. :lol:

We need an option for this time of year (possibly using an extension cord) to boost power to the coil to melt snow and ice when using "defrost mode". :lol:


Tom
 
but I am of the belief that voltage and current flow have little relevancy in the operation of the two coils you mention. Both voltage and current flow are required, as with any electronic instrument. But the operational characteristics of the coils are based on much more than having enough "power" to make them work. The operational process will be much harder to understand than simply differentiating voltage and current. But let me give it a shot.

Simply put, voltage is the measurement for electrical pressure. Amperage, (milliamps in the case of electronics with 1 milliamp = 1/1000 amp) is the measurement of current flow. And, the final piece of the puzzle being resistance. Resistance, measured in ohms, is a constant. And, in the case of a metal detector, is the resistance to the flow of current through the control panel and the coil assembly. Ohms law tells us that Voltage = Current flow X Resistance.
Voltage is somewhat irrelevant, in this equation in that the voltage of an X-Terra can vary from 8 volts (where the detector shuts down due to high voltage) to a low of 4 volts (when the detector shuts down due to lack of electrical pressure. In other words, the voltage regulator will not allow more than 8 volts of electrical pressure drive the current through the circuitry. And, if there is less than 4 volts of electrical pressure, there isn't enough to push an adequate amount of current through the circuitry. So, the high and low voltages for an X-Terra would be less than 8 and more than 4. As to how many electrons it takes to operate just the coil???? I don't know. You could determine that with an ammeter, in series with the transmit circuit or receive circuit of the coil. Or you could measure the resistance of the coil and do the math. However, knowing that there is a micro controller in the X-Terra coil, I ain't going to be hooking anything up to mine except the control housing.

As to why some detectors take AA batteries and others take 9 volt batteries..... that is simply different design and engineering techniques. As long as their is ample voltage to provide the electrical pressure required to push a sufficient supply of electrons to drive the circuitry, and it fits in the housing, it don't matter. The total number of electrons available to continue the operation of the detector is more important. As an example, you can buy NiMH AA cells with 1800 mA or you can buy them with 2700 mA. Both offer 1.2 volts base pressure. (fully charged is closer to 1.5 volts). But the number of electrons willing to be pushed through the circuitry in the 2700 cells is half again more than the 1800 mA. In other words, the 2700 cells should last 50% longer between charges. And, as long as there is sufficient electrical pressure to push them through.

As to comparing the 10.5 inch Explorer coil to the same sized X-Terra coil, I wouldn't call either one of them basic. As I mentioned above, the X-Terra coil has a microprocessor imbedded in the coil. In addition to the current flow required to generate magnetic lines of force in the coil configuration, it takes a small amount to power the communication chip. How the microprocessor in the detector housing communicates with the microprocessor chip in the coil is still proprietary information.

As to the coil requirements of the Explorer, I haven't done any specific testing. But I've read there is a multi-tone generator on the transmit side. The receive side uses a sampled data system followed by a Digital Signal Processor based Fast Fourier Transform.

I'm not convinced that the Explorer actually transmits 28 frequencies at one time. Instead, I think the Explorer looks at 3 frequencies and selects those from a 98.5 KhZ spectrum. This spectrum contains 2 main frequencies and their associated harmonics. I say this because from what I understand, the Explorer transmits square waves from two separate time frames, which would represent 2 different frequencies. If they do transmit square sign waves, and square sign waves are comprised of 2 different frequencies, and, square sign waves are comprised of odd numbered harmonics (3,5,7,9 KhZ etc), then if you transmit one square wave of 3 KhZ and one at 15KhZ, then the actual frequencies in that waveform would be 3,9,15,21,27KHz,etc. in one part and 10,30,50,70,90KHz etc in the other.

After this brief and confusing post, I guess my point is that voltage and current flow have very little to do with the operation of the coils on an X-Terra or an Explorer. As long as their is ample voltage to push enough electrons through the circuit, it will work as designed. If the voltage is too high or low, they shut down. Now you can't get any simpler than that!

HH Randy
 
Thanx for your response. I was curious because of the amount of power different units require to function. Twice as much in some cases.
 
Thanks!

One question on voltage regulators. Do they maintain an even voltage regardless of battery state and if so explain how that affects current...Ok OK those little electron thingies.

Tom
 
You're absolutely right Randy and I couldn't have said it any better myself. Now I understand why the extra amperage is needed in the Explorer V the more simplified X-Terras.
HH Bob
 
drinking with a soda straw. No matter how hard you suck on that straw, it will only run out so fast. In a short answer, yes, those little electron thingies will remain constant. That is if the voltage regulator keeps a steady voltage. Remember, the resistance is a constant. So, if the resistance is constant and the voltage is constant, the amps have to remain constant as well.

Voltage regulators can be either electromechanical or electronic. I suspect that those used in current detectors are electronic. But, that is just a guess. Voltage regulators compare the actual voltage they are putting out, to an internal fixed reference point. (software driven) If the output voltage is too low, a regulation sensor tells the regulator to put out more voltage. This happens until your batteries are out of electrons. :stretcher:
If the voltage is too high, one of three things can typically happen. 1.the regulator sensor shuts it off completely (as with the X-Terra when it sees over 8 volts). 2. the regulator stops pushing the electrons and allows the resistance of the detector to determine the pressure required. 3. the regulator trims itself back to provide a voltage within the predetermined reference point. I would like to think that the electronics of the X-Terra are smart enough to do the 3rd option. But.... :shrug:

Randy
 
If you use 4 AA batteries in series, then you should only have 6 to 6.5 volts depending on the quality of the batteries. If you use rechargeable batteries, then you may have up to 7 volts. If the batteries were in parallel then you would have around 3 volts. Most PC's run on 5.1 volts and have very good voltage regulation. I would think that Xterras would run some where around 5 volts. Almost all detectors only run at 4 milliwatts or less(regulated by the FCC)on the transmit cycle. The thing that makes a detector hot is how well the receive circuit works. When you turn up the gain, you are not putting more power to the out put, but only making the receiver work to its maximum. If I am not correct on this please correct me. Digger you must have a good back ground in electronics. I am learning a lot about my X-70 on this forum.
 
You are correct in that gain is merely the amplification of the response received by the coil from the target. It isn't more power to the coil. It is simply tweaking the receive circuitry in an effort to optimize communication between the transmit and receive circuits.

I believe you are incorrect in your analysis of the series / parallel examples you gave.

Alkaline cells are approximately 1.5 volts each. NiMH cells are approximately 1.2 volts each. Since four alkalines in series is +/- 6 volts, four NiMH cells will be +/- 4.8 volts.

In a parallel circuit, voltage stays the same. Only the current capacity changes.

So, if you connected two 2500 mA, NiMH cells in series, you would have a battery with 2.4 volts and 2500 mA capability. Whereas if you connected two NiMH cells in parallel, you would have a 1.2 volt battery with 5000 mA of current capacity.

Don't confuse the term battery with cell. For example, a nine volt alkaline transistor battery is actually made up of 6 cells.

A few final thoughts on cells and voltages.....
a nickel-based cell provides a nominal cell voltage of 1.2V
alkaline is 1.5V
silver-oxide 1.6V
lead-acid 2V
primary lithium 3V
lithium-ion 3.6V
Spinel, lithium-ion polymer and other lithium-based systems sometimes use 3.7V as the designated cell voltage.

These are some voltages you need to keep in mind when trying new types of cells in your $700 detector!

HH Randy
 
I do sometimes prefer to view things a little more simple rather than too technical. :surprised:

First, as to battery selection: I think that manufacturers have had to follow general trends to make things compact and lighter, and this is accomplished partly by all those high-tech 'chips' that do a whole lot more than our old 5 transistor detector models. They do more, and they do it more efficiently.

Heck, some of the batteries we used to have to buy for one detector weighed as much as some of todays lightweight detectors! One reason was because they had to have a lot of voltage and AMPERAGE in order to fire up the tubes in the metal detectors we used. By the way, a lot of newcomers to the hobby have no clue what a 'tube' is! :heh:

So, in this case the questions are good and deserve a thoughtful answer (Randy gave it), but many forum readers would be lost in the first paragraph !

Second, many batteries we have are more efficient and affordable and have ample 'power' to drive the low-demand electronics that are used.

Third, I used to have a very good, but bulky, hand-held CB radio that took about 12-AA batteries, I couldn't talk with a fellow 1
 
Why for example the Explorer needs 8 AAs and the XTs only need 4 AAs?
One step further, why does the Ace250 on the same 4 AAs not even come close to the depth that is achieved by the XTs with the same amount of power.
This isn't making any sense to me now so let me rephrase it.
When I went from the Explorer to the XT70 in the beginning, I feared that I would lose a good amount of depth because of the drop in power. You know, that big honking battery pack down to 4 little AAs.
But after experimenting with the XT70 I found I could hunt side by side with an Explorer and enjoy the same kinds of depth and sensitivity.
I have just made a simple question even more complicated.
I do understand the 8 - 4 amp. window of operation. So that would mean that the extra Amps needed by the Explorer is to run all the Bells and Whistles. Correct?
 
explain why they selected the power source they did, and what percentage of the power provided is directed to:

1.. Transmit signal generation

2.. Receive signal processing

3.. Enhanced functions such as Target ID, Tone ID, audio Saturation, etc.

4.. Audio response, either internal speaker or headphones

I can tell you this, too. Working with two X-Terra 70's and similar-size coils on he Explorers my friends use, the X-Terra 70 can't match the depth of the Explorers and still provide reasonably accurate Tone ID and Target ID. Oh, I have bested them with an X-Terra 70 or several competitive models, such as a 'hot' Tesoro Bandido II
 
Boy answering your question is not going to be easy, let's see how this goes.

1. Battery power/voltage does not necessarily equate to how deep a detector will be, with the exception of maybe some of the PI's that some people modify, but that's a whole different ball of wax.

2. Battery voltage is Direct Current(DC), which is converted to Alternating Current(AC) at a particular frequency i.e. 10kHz as opposed to say 60Hz which is common USA 120V AC mains frequency.

3. In the process of converting from Battery Power(DC) to AC @ 10kHz you can step the voltage up. So a 9 volt DC battery can be stepped up to say 15 volts AC @ 10 kHz to use as the signal to drive the transmit coil. This is done by the designers choice as to what that voltage will be based on many factors.

4. The real gains though on depth are NOT on the transmit side because if they were, then simply stepping up the voltage would be the answer and it is very easy to accomplish. But there is also a point of diminishing returns for the amount of transmit power you are using.

5. Let's say a manufacturer has an older model with a 9 volt battery, which they are converting to 15 volts AC and driving the transmit coil with 1/2 ampere of current(figures are for example only). Their version II(2) model now includes updated circuitry which has boosted receive sensitivity, so that to detect a dime to the same depth they only need 10 volts AC at 1/4 ampere on the transmit side. Now battery drain has gone way down and they may decide to convert to AA's for batteries.

Lastly trying to decipher why one machine is deeper than another can be very difficult. Yes you were land hunting with an Explorer versus the X70, but head to a saltwater beach with black sand and the situation can reverse quickly. There are also many electronic design issues including coils that come into play. What microprocessor's, DSP's, LCD's, etc. are in the machine and how much processing is going on. The Explorer looks like a very processing intense machine, lot's of gears turning.

HH
BarnacleBill
 
I know that you must give the XT70 your full attention when hunting for deep targets as the audio can be no more than a slight blip of a noise. When in an area like this where you know you can dig very deep old coppers you need to run as near All Metal as possible with your threshold and volume in sinc. and GB must be checked periodically. When getting one of these so called blips. Check the digital and in most all cases it will jump around but hover in a certain area numerically. The deep coppers that I was digging were coming in at around 30 until I opened the ground up and then the digital would move on up to the proper numeric ID and the audio would now become louder and clearer.
This is just my observation from the time I have on this machine and enjoying the site I was at. My partner (uses an Explorer) and I dug 57 old coppers in three days. 31 of which I unearthed with my XT70.
 
I guess my unedjumacated guess was not that far off afer all. :devil:
 
that the extra bells and whistles use extra power. That is correct but that's not all of the story. You got me to thinking of the late 60's and early 70's. Many used battery packs larger than motor cycle batteries for their detectors. Some of the detectors had vacuum tubes. I suspect many were tuned to put out more power than is the legal limit (if there is one).
 
Hi Digger,

you seem to be describing basically a 'constant current source'. These are circuits that always provide a constant current even when the input voltage varies over time (such as a detector circuit where the voltage is getting lower over time as the batteries drain, but the detector circuit itself requires a steady current to operate properly and remain stable). If this didn't happen then you'd notice gradually poorer depth and performance with the X70 as the batteries wore down. But we know we can keep using our detectors right up to when the display says 'battery needs replacing'.

Component miniaturization is one big reason why modern equipment often requires less power than older stuff and is the main reason why the X70 requires less battery power than the ExpII, in my view.

Electricity is alot like water for a good analogy. Low voltage, high current is like a low waterfall but with a high volume of water flowing over it (like a weir). You can easily drown (be electrocuted) by this. High voltage, low current is like a very high waterfall but with just a trickle flowing over it. It may sting to stand under such a waterfall but it won't kill you (you get zapped). Stun guns have very high voltage but very low current.

For the above reason the U.S. electricity system is more dangerous than the European/Australian system. A device that needs 120VAC @ 10amps (1200 watts) in the U.S. would need 240VAC @ 5amps (1200 watts) in Europe (Power = Volts x Amps). 10 amps will probably kill you. 5 amps will probably give you a nasty shock.

cheers,
rob
:)
 
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