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Historic park renovations...

dmckee17

Active member
In recent years we have had some of our older parks and fairgrounds fall to new housing developments, updating, renovating, etc. At these areas there has been and will be extensive dirt moving, uncovering virgin ground from yesteryear (as we all know). What is really saddening is the fact that every single time this happens they come in and put up an 8' fence with razor wire and deny entry to everybody ,everytime. I know this because I have tried unsuccessfully each time to gain access the "correct" way by talking to the man in charge with my hat in hand (no pun).
This is really sad because these places are being lost or covered up, then the younger folks come in to enjoy their newly renovated area and don't want anybody digging in it because its residential or an "upscale" park now. Is this same mentality occurring everywhere or just here? Just my thoughts on golden opportunities being lost!
 
Let me start by saying, that the site-fencing is relatively new (30 or 40 yrs. old). I've been in this long enough, to remember when, back in the old days, there was nothing but a few orange cones, perhaps some yellow ticker tape, etc.... around old-town urban demolition. The problem is the litigical world we live in nowadays, and it has nothing to do with md'ing. Ie.: I doubt quite seriously any const. workers, or whomever's in charge, really cares less about some old coins you might find (in fact, most often, they're quite intrigued and think it's cool). But due to the lawsuit happy world we're in now, everythings got a fence around it. Even school yards, so no one can go jog the track or shoot hoops after school, etc....

I'm going to give you a real-world true example, and readers can "read between the lines" and determine what they want to:

There is a local high school here in my town, that was built in 1919. There was an inner grass quad. where.... for 80+ yrs, hundreds of students had sat to each their lunch. One day, the local newspaper ran a blurb about how the old highschool was going to undergo rennovations, rip out some buildings, put in new ones, re-configure, etc... I studied the plans, and found out that one part of the project was going to be ripping out the grass, and doing some sort of new landscaping. You can be I "smelled blood" :) So, like you, I thought I'd better "do the right thing" and go "ask", because I feared there would be the obligatory fence put around it, once the project started.

As president of our local detecting club, we went about it totally professionally, sent off our proof of insurances, offered to donate relevent items to the city museum, blah blah blah. No one ever replied. Meanwhile, the project started. From the street view, I could see, each night, the progress, so I stepped up efforts to get a reply from the city, to allow our club members to get to hunt there. To no avail. Each time, they would say it was sent to this dept, and that dept, and under legal review, blah blah blah. Then one night, I could see from the street, that they were starting to rip out the grass. Despair sank in, as it appeared that this project would "come and go", and no one would get in on it. However, one night, I spotted someone detecting in there after the workers had cut out for the day! So I went in, and saw who it was: an acquantance who wasn't in our club, but whom I knew from the area. I asked him "how'd you get in here? Our club has pending permission, etc....". The guy just looked at me like I was from outer space. Turns out, he had just simply gone to the gate, which was held with bailing wire (ie.: a poor excuse for "fencing", but .... oh well), and helped himself. He couldn't what the problem was. He had been in there for multiple nights now, and no one cared less. Yup, in full view of passing cars on Main St. Even after school staff (in the un-affected bldg's nearby) would come by nighly to see what his latest finds were. In other words, no one cared.

He opened up his apron and showed me handfuls of silver coins, wheaties, etc...... That was all I needed to see. I grabbed my detector and joined him.

You can make of this story what you will, but I believe it speaks loudly to a lot of oldtown urban demolitions (sidewalk tearouts, etc...) where there's the obligatory cones, ribbons, or fencing. I truly believe that it's so that you can't slip and sue them. Does anyone really care, or notice, after 5pm? Probably not (until you ask that is).

Now in my example, it was for a public place, so I suppose the issue would be different for a private developer, on a private site.
 
So what did you find once you were able to get in there and power-up?
 
Founds lots of silver coins and wheaties. Mostly the expected common mercs, roosies, etc.... But oddly, I got a 1921 Morgan dollar (unusual to figure how a silver dollar can be lost in turf, but ..... oh well!). And a few coins that predated the school, since there had been a homesite there, prior to the building of the 1919 school: I got a 2 cent piece (I forget the date), and some lantern parts that I could tell pre-dated the school. All told, between the couple of us who eventually just .... went for it, probably 200 silver coins came out. It went on for several weeks, so totals for an individual, for a single effort, might be 5 or 6 silvers each, 20 or 30 wheaties, etc.... Nothing spectacular, but fun nonetheless.
 
I would like to hear what you consider spectacular...ha-ha !!
 
A better urban turf scrape happened at a park in San Francisco, in 2006. The silver there tilted upwards of 10 to 20 per hunter in a hunt, and the silver dated back to seateds. My buddies and I wrote at article about that exploit, for the Jan. 2008 issue of Western and Eastern.

Oh, and that one too was a "help yourself" project, after 5pm. Nothing that a magical "cat key" can't solve :) By the 3rd or 4th night though, the contractors did wise up to what was going on, but just winked "don't leave any marks or holes, keep a low profile, etc...". As far as we were concerned, that was "permission".
 
I guess my question to you Tom is that if you felt that it was OK to go in there and do some detecting after saying that you were working hard for the club to get the proper permission to detect there then why didn't you invite the club to join you or did you?:shrug:

Eddie
 
We have the same problem in my area. We had a whole bunch of WWII housing units that they are tearing down and at first we were allowed to detect as long as we stayed clear of the workers and demolition equipment. Slowly but surely they eventually fenced in the whole complex and now we can't get in there at all. There are still a lot of the old houses still standing, but these guys use chains and padlocks at all the gates and entry ways and not just bailing wire. Won't catch me with a bolt cutter trying to get in there.

Eddie
 
Eddie, good question. Because as club president (of our motely little 2-dozen member small town club), I was torn between wanting to just hunt a good site, verses having a group hunt. Some of our members were a little older, so perhaps it wasn't a liberty to hang out till more discreet after-hours, as they'd prefer to hunt during daylight. Or quite frankly, we sort of scr*wed it up for ourselves, by having asked, in the first place. Because, think of it: if those couple of us who wised up, that "no one cared", simply told the others "come one, come all", you know what the response would have been, right? Someone would have asked the knee-jerk question: "oh, so I guess our permission got approved?" And then if I were to have said "nah, but no one seems to care", you can guess what would happen. Because there are some hunters who think you need permission to hunt public sand boxes, you know :( Thus, I was torn. It would simply have been better, to have never asked. Because once I/we did, it put us/me in the position of some implication that we must now all wait, or can't go unless we get a reply, or whatever.

There is also another psychological factor at play here: As you know, there are a heck of a lot of places where perhaps no one really cares, right? For example: I know of one big city park here in CA, where it's just simply been a known fact, that detecting is allowed, simply because it's gone on, for as long as anyone can recall (since the dawn of invention of detecting, I guess). Or at least, there's no actual prohibitions of it, so far as anyone is concerned. Anyhow, one day, about 25 of us in a network of friends, decided to descend on a certain large meadow in this park, and have a group hunt. Well you can imagine what 25 hunters looked like! People stopped to gawk from the street. Passerbys would remark "is this a club? What are you guys looking for?" etc.... And soon, a park cop came and booted us all! Do you see the psychology? No one seems to notice a single hunter or two, right? But if you put 25 guys in a single area, busy-bodies start to ask themselves "why are those guys doing? I wonder if they should be doing that?" etc... Thus sometimes you simply can't open up certain sites to large amounts of hunters, lest you simply make yourself a target for scrutiny. Know what I mean?

So to answer your question, I just went, along with a few others who wised up, and none of us said anything to anyone else.
 
Hey Tom, I've read many posts on this subject over the years whole heartly agree with you that the worse thing you can do when you want to detect city property is go ask for permission. One time in an old part of Pasadena I came across a school that was demoing one side of the school yard. This was on a Friday afternoon. I saw a guy on a small tractor scraping off the grass and he had done about half of it. I parked and walked over to the guy on the tractor. I asked if I could detect the side he had already scraped. The school is on one side of the street and the kids have to cross the street to get to the playgrounds. He told me to go for it but told me if anyone asked he didn't give me permission. I only had about an hour to detect and ended up with some wheats but I knew this spot was going to be good. That evening I was going out of town and wasn't going to be back until Sunday night. I didn't know if I would be able to get in there next week so I call a couple of friends (remember Bing and Mark on the Ca forum?) and gave them the address and told them they should check it out on the weekend. Long story short I was getting calls all weekend about all the silver, buffalos and wheats they were digging. Made me sick :detecting:. Fortunately we were able to work that site for about two or three weeks before we were asked to stop. In the early going all three of us were getting 4 to 7 silvers, a buffalo or two and about 30 or 40 wheats each time out. Even pulled out a couple of silver scout rings. I'm sure if I would have asked in the office they would have told me no.

There was a park on Fairoaks blvd in Pasadena that got fenced because they were going to replace the old asphalt walkways. You could get in through the fence if you wanted to but I was chicken to go in without permission. One day after the wokers had left I drove by and saw two people detecting in there. I parked and walked over to the fence. I called out to one of the guys detecting. I know he could hear me but he wouldn't look my way. Finally he took a peek and then walked over to me. I told him I had my detector in the car and if it was ok for me to join them. He said come on in. Later he told me he wouldn't look my way because he didn't want to be asked to leave. He said the workers didn't mind as long as we left the area the same as we found it. We found a lot of oldies there. I found my key date 1908 s Indian there. Mark and I worked that park until they replaced the walk ways.

Now when I see a demo I'm thinking how can I get in there. I've been asked to leave spots many times and they usually say it's because they don't want to get sued if I get hurt. I mostly think that they don't really care but don't want to be the person that knew about me being there and didn't do anything.

I say "go for it and ask for forgiveness later". Keep in mind I'm not talking about historic sites, or National Parks.
 
Randy, points duly noted. thanx.
 
Tom_in_CA said:
You can make of this story what you will, but I believe it speaks loudly to a lot of oldtown urban demolitions (sidewalk tearouts, etc...) where there's the obligatory cones, ribbons, or fencing. I truly believe that it's so that you can't slip and sue them. Does anyone really care, or notice, after 5pm? Probably not (until you ask that is).
.

you got it Tom ....noone wants to be the "guy" whos head is going to be on the chop block , because you gave some person permission to pursue a harmless hobby..... Ive sat on both sides of this fence, and if your going to feel so compelled that you just HAVE to ask for permission...... choose one of the equipment operators/drivers/laborers, after the guy in the tie splits...... the working guy isnt the one sitting in planning/scheduling meetings watching his dept and contractor(and subs) go through and sign paperwork that can amount to over 6" thick ....and of course contain all kinds of good stuff re: insurance,bonds, liabiltys ...(etc) Bottom line, if I know its govt job, I wait for folks to leave and detect.... The same person who wont permit you to detect, will also most likely not say squat when he drives by and sees you doing that "geiger counter thing" ....
 
You got it brother - I love your style. I am a little shy about bulling my way in on hot ground and I pay for it by missing out on finds. (I'm sure) One time when I was detecting between the road and the side walk I had a state worker pull up. I could tell he was a little miffed and bent that I was detecting the strip. He said "what are you doing here?" - my reply "just detecting in this state own public easement" --- confused he told me "well don't hurt the dirt" LOL - then he drove off.

But back to the permission thing - if you do get permission at a prime site, it sure relieves a lot of stress while you hunt. You don't find yourself looking over your shoulder and crap like that.
 
no matter where it's at. I realize some people feel it's okay to hunt city property or other property if you are unsure it's okay...but I disagree. While I feel you shouldn't have to ask permission to hunt city property, parks, etc.; I feel IF you are truly unsure it's okay...that you should obtain permission first. True you might run into the person who has had a bad day and will tell you no; but it is still better to make sure it's okay if you are unsure.
No way it can be a good thing for our hobby to be hunting a site when you know you should have probably asked permission first but were afraid you might get turned down. Just doesn't sound like good relations for the hobby to me.

Yes our public access is changing and fences are being put up on renovation sites. It sure as heck wouldn't make it any better for metal detectorists such as myself if people were to start hunting these sites without permission.
sorry you have been turned down time and again. It really is discouraging and disheartening as well as simply not fair. However you still did the right thing for the future public relations aspect of our hobby in my opinion.

I know we all have differing opinions but this is mine for what it's worth.
 
Some times playing their ego works. I ran into the mayor at a restaurant and said to him that I could not find any one that was comfortable telling me that I could hunt the city park so I thought I would go to the top. He handed me his card and said to hunt any of the city property I wanted and if any one said any thing have them to call him. But I live in a small town in a rural county. But I bet this would work at a job sight also. Joe.
 
Dave, in reading your post, it seems to ring true only WHEN a person assumes, that permission is needed, to begin with. In other words, once you have that as a presumption, then yes, of course, why WOULDN'T a person "ask". But I don't make that assumption, lest it merely become a self-fulfilling prophecy. I mean, no more so than would I think I need to ask to fly a frisbee. Thus I believe the premise to your stand is what's not holding water.

You say:

"No way it can be a good thing for our hobby to be hunting a site when you know you should have probably asked permission first but were afraid you might get turned down. Just doesn't sound like good relations for the hobby to me."


Ironically, it's just the opposite. A lot of public sites getting put off limits to detecting are due to people ASKING for permission, not those who are not (assuming we're talking areas that have no prohibitions). The drill is this: you waltz into city or county hall, asking permission, and some desk-clerk is bound to answer your pressing question. Let's say they give you a "no". You may think "no harm done", right? But wait! Guess what's going to happen when that same desk clerk or cop, or kiosk clerk, who perhaps would never have given the issue a moment's thought (till you asked), sees ANOTHER md'r? He's going to think "aha! there's one of them" and start booting others. I've actually seen this happen before. Or worse yet, they invent a rule, or make a "clarification" to existing verbage, to "address your pressing question", and presto, parks get put off limits.

Who is doing the hobby a dis-service in cases like this? The one asking, or the one not? So you see, it's not always harmless.

The minute someone fields your question, they can dream up all sorts of stuff they *think* applies to you (afterall, "no" is the easy answer), and then you merely get rules written or enforced, where it was never an issue before.

So again, if you are skittish, look the rules up yourself. If it is silent on the issue, then so be it. To think otherwise, that you somehow need permission, is to have lost the battle, before you even start. It merely presumes there is something inherently evil or wrong about your hobby, that you needed to "ask", to begin with (lest why would you have asked?). And thus, the continuous vicious circle of self-fulfilling prophecy.
 
You stated your opinion already and I stated mine. I'm not sure why you felt the need to respond again to my response to the original thread since you have already stated your opinions once. My opinion isnt for debate or argument. It is exactly what it is...my personal opinion...and it won't change.

Tom_in_CA said:
Dave, in reading your post, it seems to ring true only WHEN a person assumes, that permission is needed, to begin with. In other words, once you have that as a presumption, then yes, of course, why WOULDN'T a person "ask". But I don't make that assumption, lest it merely become a self-fulfilling prophecy. I mean, no more so than would I think I need to ask to fly a frisbee. Thus I believe the premise to your stand is what's not holding water.
It rings true for me and anyone I hunt with exactly WHEN I stated...when you are truly unsure if it's okay or not.
It doesnt matter to me whether or not the "premise" to my stand "holds water" to you or not? It's the vast majority of people who read this thread or other threads on this subject that matter to me. You have already stated your opinions and we are each entitled to our own.
Metal detecting and probing or digging for coins in no way compares with "throwing a frisbee" in a park. I'm new to this hobby and plan on enjoying it the rest of my life so I want to do what I feel is right to make sure it's there for me in the future.


Tom_in_CA said:
You say:

"No way it can be a good thing for our hobby to be hunting a site when you know you should have probably asked permission first but were afraid you might get turned down. Just doesn't sound like good relations for the hobby to me."

Ironically, it's just the opposite. A lot of public sites getting put off limits to detecting are due to people ASKING for permission, not those who are not (assuming we're talking areas that have no prohibitions).
Again this is your opinion but not mine. I see a lot of public sites getting put off limits for people NOT ASKING. I have already stated this does not mean I feel the need to ask permission to hunt most public parks or sites. I clearly stated you should ask IF you are truly unsure if it's okay or not. Most public parks and sites are okay that I hunt but the ones I am unsure on...NO WAY I'm going to start hunting without making sure it's okay or not...because I just wouldn't feel right about it. We all have our own code of ethics we live by.


Tom_in_CA said:
So again, if you are skittish, look the rules up yourself. If it is silent on the issue, then so be it. To think otherwise, that you somehow need permission, is to have lost the battle, before you even start. It merely presumes there is something inherently evil or wrong about your hobby, that you needed to "ask", to begin with (lest why would you have asked?). And thus, the continuous vicious circle of self-fulfilling prophecy.
It "presumes" nothing of the sort. I "would have asked" because it's how I live my life and enjoy the hobby too. I would not ask because I feel skittish about something being "inherently wrong or evil" about my hobby?? I would have asked for the exact same reason I originally stated...because I would personally feel better about hunting a site where I'm unsure if being granted permission was needed...IF I obtained permission first. It's that simple...and just my opinion.
I'm not here participating on the forum to argue or debate anyone else's opinions. I respect everyone's opinions even if they are 100% different than mine. I simply stated mine and would appreciate the same respect.
 
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