I THINK MY EXPLORER IS SICK:look: :sadwalk: :help:

[Chris/MA]

Let's briefly explore the idea of having the switch on the probe..

1. Being metal, the switch would probably be detected by the probe.
2. More wires in the cable needed since you would have to run the signals for the regular coil down the probe cable to get to the switch.
3. Then if the cable fatigues neither the probe or the coil work until you disconnect everything and hook up just the coil.
4. If you don't have your old unmodified upper shaft with you, you won't be able to do #3.
5. If it was going to be on the probe, it had better be a momentary switch, otherwise you'll break the damn thing off in no time while using the probe. If you liked the wear&tear/dirt issues of having the switch on the box, you'll love having it in the hole.
6. Unless you have an indicator light in it you can't easily tell if a momentary switch is on or off.
7. Can't put an indicator in the switch for electrical reasons outlined by Ralph (the machine certainly wouldn't be happy having an LED in series with the signal lines to the coil, seeing as the machine is using frequencies in the kilohertz range and an LED will try to rectify everything to DC, being a diode.
8. Poking around in the hole with the thing will probably toggle the switch repeatedly by accident.
9. All of these additions probably would make manufacturing,assembly,disassembly and repair more difficult and expensive, both in parts and labor cost.
10. These are just the issues I think of without having 10 different detectorists beat on a prototype for a day.

Stuff like this is why engineering is always a trade-off and no product will ever be perfect.

 

[Gil]

n/t

 

[Ralph Sun Ray]

Val,

The most often repair is the probe/cable due to what you just described. That is why we have been including a maintentence sheet with each new probe and repair for several years now. Cupping the probe with the palm of your hand at the end and continually bending the strain relief can cause an eventual break in the thin shielding wires at that point and also attempting to further tighten the strain relief nuts at either end of the probe cable can cause damage as well. We have them tightened to our specs which will always show a few threads which look like they could be tightened more. When a user thinks he has a problem with the probe, many times the first thing he thinks of is tightening everything up. Doing that with the strain relief nuts will not solve anything - it can cause damage as the little plastic teeth in the strain relief can be tightened too much and can bite into the coating on the cable and break the shielding wires inside. Also, a lot of sharp bending, snagging and twisting of the cable can cause damage eventually as well. Most user's are aware of the potential cable problems associated with hipmounting a metal detector control housing due to all of the stress from swinging that cable back and forth repeatedly. Also, dropping the probe on concrete or black top, etc. can cause problems in the probe itself such as knocking it out of tune, etc. As long as the probe is treated like an electronic instrument and some moderate care given to the probe and cable it should last for several years. We have many in the field that have never come back for repair even after many years of hard use. As for replacing the probe/cable itself it is like replacing a coil on your metal detector which is expensive. Replacing the probe/cable (both have to be replaced due to the way they are constructed with epoxy) right now runs $105.00 + return S&H out of warranty. We give an automatic 12 month warranty on the probe/cable jtself on an after warranty repair.

Ralph (Sun Ray)

 

[Rick(ND)]

I do have to agree with you on the strain relief on the probe as where most of the problems have been, much of this I now see is over tightening of the nut as the tighter you go the more it bites into the cable causing a problem. After looking at one of the strain relief real close I see these are designed to do this and probably why I never seem to have any problems with my Probes I use on my detectors as I dont tighten mine and just leave them alone. In all my year using a Sun Ray probe I had to replace one toggle switch on mine as the rubber boot got tore and I kept putting off replacing it and got too much dirt in the switch making bad contact.

Thanks for posting this as it will help us all.

Rick

 

[Dana Point Val]

Val,

The most often repair is the probe/cable due to what you just described. That is why we have been including a maintentence sheet with each new probe and repair for several years now. Cupping the probe with the palm of your hand at the end and continually bending the strain relief can cause an eventual break in the thin shielding wires at that point and also attempting to further tighten the strain relief nuts at either end of the probe cable can cause damage as well. We have them tightened to our specs which will always show a few threads which look like they could be tightened more. When a user thinks he has a problem with the probe, many times the first thing he thinks of is tightening everything up. Doing that with the strain relief nuts will not solve anything - it can cause damage as the little plastic teeth in the strain relief can be tightened too much and can bite into the coating on the cable and break the shielding wires inside. Also, a lot of sharp bending, snagging and twisting of the cable can cause damage eventually as well. Most user's are aware of the potential cable problems associated with hipmounting a metal detector control housing due to all of the stress from swinging that cable back and forth repeatedly. Also, dropping the probe on concrete or black top, etc. can cause problems in the probe itself such as knocking it out of tune, etc. As long as the probe is treated like an electronic instrument and some moderate care given to the probe and cable it should last for several years. We have many in the field that have never come back for repair even after many years of hard use. As for replacing the probe/cable itself it is like replacing a coil on your metal detector which is expensive. Replacing the probe/cable (both have to be replaced due to the way they are constructed with epoxy) right now runs $105.00 + return S&H out of warranty. We give an automatic 12 month warranty on the probe/cable jtself on an after warranty repair.

Ralph (Sun Ray)

Thank you Ralph for the fast response and answering all my questions. For the amount of abuse I put my probes through I'm surprised that they last as long as they do. Great company and products and I'm Happy that I am able to send them back in and have them revamped.

 

[Erik in NJ]

Chris, Thanks for your reply....I'm glad someone is giving these items some thoughts:

1. Being metal, the switch would probably be detected by the probe.

A momentary membrane switch like what's used on the control housing of the Explorer does not have much metal in it as far as I know - if the probe will pick this up that it will probably also pick up the wires in the probe itself. I think it's safeto assume that the probe will not pick up the switch.

2. More wires in the cable needed since you would have to run the signals for the regular coil down the probe cable to get to the switch.

So what, wires are cheap and an extra pair of wires in the cable would not be a big deal in terms of increasing the size of the cable or its weight.

3. Then if the cable fatigues neither the probe or the coil work until you disconnect everything and hook up just the coil.

If the cable currently fatiques you still need to remove the probe -- if built to industrial or military spec the probe should outlast the detector.

4. If you don't have your old unmodified upper shaft with you, you won't be able to do #3.

Huh?

5. If it was going to be on the probe, it had better be a momentary switch, otherwise you'll break the damn thing off in no time while using the probe. If you liked the wear&tear/dirt issues of having the switch on the box, you'll love having it in the hole.

Yes, putting a toggle switch on the probe would be ludicrous. I don't like the fact that there is a toggle switch used at all for this application -- I like the idea of a membrane momentary contact switch.

6. Unless you have an indicator light in it you can't easily tell if a momentary switch is on or off.

You obviously don't understand what a momentary contact switch is. It's only on when it is depressed, otherwise it ca be latched on and off like the power button on the Explorer. If he were to latch it, I recommended a flashing LED on the box.

7. Can't put an indicator in the switch for electrical reasons outlined by Ralph (the machine certainly wouldn't be happy having an LED in series with the signal lines to the coil, seeing as the machine is using frequencies in the kilohertz range and an LED will try to rectify everything to DC, being a diode.

Not true, you can put a small button battery in the box to power the LED -- they use them in childrens' books etc. I'm not convinced that the Explorer could not power an LED -- why would you put it in series?!?! You would probably siphon off a small current and rectify it to light the LED.

8. Poking around in the hole with the thing will probably toggle the switch repeatedly by accident.

See #5.

9. All of these additions probably would make manufacturing,assembly,disassembly and repair more difficult and expensive, both in parts and labor cost.

Why try to improve anything? I don't mind paying for quality -- I desire it and will pay to minimize my recovery time for a target.

10. These are just the issues I think of without having 10 different detectorists beat on a prototype for a day.

Stuff like this is why engineering is always a trade-off and no product will ever be perfect.

Yes, I'm schooled as an engineer (RPI class of '83) and you're right -- no product is perfect -- but every product can be improved and the X-1 is no exception (nor is the Explorer). I like the X-1 very much, unfortunately it's the only game in town. As I said I own three of them. I wish the new E-Trac had been designed with an integrated probe by Minelab or at least the USB port was capable of supporting one. Minelab dropped the ball on this one. I think Ralph or someone has a real opportunity to make a stellar probe given the constraints of the detector. Thanks for engaging me in this discussion!