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I was just reading about ferrous reliability and bounce.

harryhh

Member
I was just reading about significant bounce in FE numbers on good targets. I've read some about it before in other posts, and it brings up a question.

I've seen posts with FE numbers for good targets at 15, 17, 20, or even into the upper 20's. I mostly find iron signals around FE 31 or so, with a lot of scattered signals up the screen. Most of the aluminum seems to be around the FE 12 line within a couple of points.

Do many of you see FE numbers on trash that are between say FE 15 and 27, but don't go higher than 27? The way I'm looking at this right now is that if I see a FE number of 15 or more it's possibly, or even likely to be a good target because aluminum is generally up around 12. And if the FE number doesn't go higher than 27 or 28 it's likely a good target because iron is generally around 31.

Does that sound reasonable, or are there still lots of trash signals between FE 15 to 27?

Thanks,
Harry
 
Around my area anything higher than 24 had been iron for me! But listen closely to the targets there is more info in the sound than that screen can ever tell you
 
I keep finding myself focusing on the screen. I'm going to have to redouble my efforts to listen to the sound.

I was aware that good targets sometimes had FE numbers a good bit higher than 12. I was under the impression that it was pretty rare. It looks like I'm going to have to change that.

I'm still wondering if there is a high FE number where I can make a cutoff at, and say that anything higher than that is iron. I'm still thinking that a FE number higher than 28 is iron. Yours seems to be generally higher than 24. I always have target trace turned on, and rusted iron starts at around 32 and gives a multitude of scattered dots up the screen. All the way up to FE 1 or 2 sometimes I think.
 
If you have an e mail adress i will gladly send you my programs with an explanation of why when and where i use it that way,It was hard to break myself of reliance on that screen starting with the E trac but after a few solid hunts of purposely not looking at the screen until I decided to dig made a world of difference in my finds, it forced me to further concentrate and listen to the slight differences in the audio response and variability that can make the difference between a miss and getting that good target because it is all nestled up to trash, iron or so deep its on the fringe of detection depth, the best accessory you can get is quality headphones and it makes a night and day difference, back to the fe number question.the mineralization level of the soil, iron contamination and corrosion of said iron, moisture content, hot rocks and other conductive trash ect.can drastically alter the value displayed so while a isolated relatively shallow 3 or 4 inch clad quarter may hit a consistent 12 46 but add a square nail at 2 inches under it or a corroded bottle cap it's going to hit higher say 14-18-24 fe maybe a bounce to a 1 or 12 fe once in a while but will stay way more consistent in Co numbers possibly throwing a 50 Co once in a while with slight audio chippy choppy and or null in there from one direction but will have a nice quarter sound for the most part, the Ctx has a learning curve and with time you will learn them so don't be afraid to see what's making that slightly off tone or what that is bouncing around on the Co side a little or just a high blip that is deep and faint with no hint of null,especially if it's deep!.dig it to see!and remember what it sounded like,eventually you can make a sound judgement very quickly and that efficiency can make a HUGE difference, personally I am still learn new things on every hunt this machine and I have hundreds of hours on it and it is definitely by main go to detector by far! Sorry I had little time to type this so hope it helps and makes sense! Mole p.s.try fe/coin separation as it stabilizes the fe numbers but drops Co numbers a bit
 
Any chance I can get a copy also?
I will send you my email just in case.
I would appreciate the help and I have already learned a lot from your post.
Thanks
FO
 
I studied your recent CTX posts regarding FE numbers. Here in California in fairly high mineralized soil, I have dug FE from 18-22 numbers when CO numbers bounce around mid to high 40's. Always rusty iron, nails with rusted globs...you know the drill.
I wouldn't mind checking out your programs if you son't mind. After over 100 hours of hunting with my CTX, I find this machine is still trying to teach me something!
 
The higher the Fe value the more likely it is iron, the more the Fe jumps the more likely there are varying targets in the ground of which at least one is iron. Dig a few jumpy targets in the area you are hunting and then decide how much digging for iron you are willing to suffer. You can usually eliminate elongated iron since it is sensitive to the coil orientation and will cause the detector to null in one direction (long length sweep) but not in the other (if isolated from other elongated iron).

A coin amongst iron is likely to only signal in one very restricted sweep angle - if at all. As a rule to keep your sanity in fields of iron, just search for that one repeatable stable hit and ignore the rest. It may only be a sweep length of 2-3" in only one very precise angle - but if you find it - dig it. Consider all targets with Fe values below ~25 (iron up averages the Fe value in iron so good targets can be found in iron field with higher Fe values). Just look for stability more than target value.

Since it is tiring to watch the display, I just hunt in Combined (3030) or TTF (E-Trac) so that a med-high or higher audio (Co value) will sound for anything around the 12Fe line (+/- 3) with the 3030 or above ~20Co (with E-Trac). I'm only listening for the med-high or greater tones that repeat (not interlaced with low tones). That makes life simple. Of course if you want rings and jewelry (which will be in the 1-15Co area around 12Fe, you'll have to watch for them too. With the 3030 I give that area a unique bin tone in combined and with the E-Trac in TTF it gets a unique tone too (usually a med-low tone). I reserve the lowest tone for iron (above ~25 in combined).

If the iron is especially dense and the CTX/E-Trac is nulling left-right-and center, remove all DISC (or almost all). Otherwise the machine will be nearly completely dead to low conductive targets. You won't find rings and jewelry in fields of iron (nails) with globs of DISC dialed in - the extra filters greatly decrease sensitivity in both machines (unless the jewelry is thicker or larger and therefore higher conductive). The FBS low freq was chosen by design to minimize reaction by low-conducting iron - but it will also cause low-conducting rings to be passed. Low freqs don't build strong secondary fields on poor conductivity (high resistive) surfaces (like iron and thin rings). The higher harmonic of the FBS helps to induce voltage across the target, but the xmit field is not as strong as the primary freq (FBS compares only low/high freq response at several varying pulse lengths and measures along at several points along the time constant of target's decaying field).

If you use the E-Trac/3030 in dense iron fields, you need a smaller coil (less soil volume), slowed sweep (more time to resolve target), varying sweep angles (to escape iron nulling), and a careful ear to hear those med-high/high peeps (which are not tonally the same as iron falsing - iron falsing is erratic/truncated blips that do not repeat unless coil sweep is exactly duplicated - caused by sharp points/bends on iron targets presenting a conductive point. Unless the coil sweep angle is duplicated precisely the next sweep will be off just enough that eddies are not strong on those prominent points. In dense iron fields a variety of iron will be chirping falsely (at various depths), thus the need to control the sweep angle to uncover only repeatable signals that occur along set sweep angles). Iron falsing is common, as strong Fe responses will drive the Fe value through 35Fe into the next bin 01-03Fe (which is usually tonally set higher for other reasons and produce the chirp). You can use a slight bit of DISC in that area on the E-Trac/3030 to limit the falsing (a good idea).

Since the E-Trac is not well balanced, constantly attempting to control an exact sweep angle over a suspected good signal (clean med-high/high beep) will tire your forearm out, especially with the11" DD coil. Another reason to use a smaller coil. The E-Trac is best in open fields where wide swings can be made - it is not made for close/tight work, like iron fields. But even so, it can produce good targets - just need to learn to discern that beep amongst the falsing chirps (and develop stronger forearm and shoulder muscles - actually learn to use your wrist to control small movements and give your arm a rest. I also have learned to hunt ambidextrously to rest the arm).

Note: If you dig past the reasonable depth given on the meter for coin-sized targets (you did check the meter before you started digging didn't you?) your probably not digging a coin-sized target. It is probably a nail (ferrous provides strong return signal that enhances the weak conductive response from the nail head/tip). You will find elongated iron at great depths (12-15") and in the side of the hole (you are likely digging toward the nail tip). If you go much past the depth meter's reading - but your pinpointer (in all metal) says the signal is deeper - it's a nail (or crushed soda can). Skip it - it isn't buried pirate treasure, it's junk.

If you want to find the jewelry/rings - dig all targets along the 12Fe axis, even if they are reading 01Co. That foil is just as likely to be a ring (especially if the depth meter is > 2-3", beyond most foils' depth). There's not much 'easy' about metal detecting.

Johnnyanglo
 
WOW!! You give an awful lot of information here. And I thank you very much. I'm going to print this out so that I can refer to it every once in a while to try to absorb it all.

I wouldn't have believed it but, you write longer posts than I do.

Thanks,
Harry
 
I'm right with you Harry, Thanks for providing the information Johnny! :clapping: Your bit about Iron-Falsing is more applicable to the more pressing questions and issues I have been experiencing. I have brought up other threads/posts trying to get answers. I hope your information will help me single out those false signals. In fact everything you mentioned is useful and I will be taking note of it. Thanks again. :thumbup:
 
Might also add ...

The primary electro-magnetic field from the coil seeks the easiest path through the soil, such that if there are ferromagnetic targets in the soil the field is bent "into" the iron and field lines travel through the iron. If there are conductive targets (non-ferrous) the field is bent away or around the target (a coin actually produces a secondary field with opposite polarity from the primary field but with identical frequency effectively opposing the primary). This means that elongated iron (or rust/magnetite) will bend the field laterally outward, since total field strength is a constant, less field strength is available to reach deeper into the soil. In other words, in mineralized soil or nail strewn soil, the depth will be greatly compromised (though a less uniform distribution of junk will allow some percentage of improvement where depth is still possible). So, you aren't going to get many deep coins where much iron is in the illumination field.

But again, coins that were not illuminated in one pass may beep when hit from another direction. Moisture in the soil can also affect the in-ground field pattern (generally improves the ferro response), but also expands the soil matrix which can cause some targets to be lost (coin slips deeper or expansion increases target-to-surface depth) and others become illuminated due to soil adjustment or change of coin perspective (movement). Dry soil can also become compacted and bring deeper coils closer to the surface in the summer.

Deeper coins are (generally) older, but problems ensue since primary strength decreases at the inverse cube of the depth, each way. Thus, there is a rapid decrease in field strength with depth, even under ideal circumstances. The deepest coins are going to be faint with irregular hits at the fringe. You'll need headphones. The signal will not be sharp - but broader, and in mixed soil with iron will have the Fe values up-averaged (cannot depend on display with deep targets, go by sound). The sound will not be like the truncated chirps of iron falsing.

Going after deep coins is a unique type of hunt - it is often best to clear an area of shallow conductive trash first. This requires repeated detecting and removal until only the deep signals remain. While you can find an occasional deep coin by happenstance, a more structured detecting approach will bring more success. Like hunting iron fields - it is going to be hard work if you do it right.

Johnnyanglo
 
Really good insight Johnny. I will have to read this many times and many more later to absorbe a small portion of it and out it to use! LOL
 
Great read! Thank you for your observations!

I hunted a difficult patch last night (with a Deus) and I had to often reset my ground balance - if I had read your posts yesterday before the hunt, I would have adjustaed a little bit. This place is loaded with iron falses which most of the time turn out to be large nuts and bolts from a roller coaster - that confuse the detector into thinking it's a high-conducting, deep target (coin).
I see a lot of similarities of "bouncy" target IDs between detectors which often are coins situated next to larger ferrous items. The smaller nails and tacks, etc don't interfere too much with a coin-sized target unless there are many in the same hole! What few coins I've located at fringe detection depths will also have "bouncy" IDs if they are in clean soil - if there's any contamination - forget about it...
Every now and then I will pull a 7-8" older Wheat from a hole with several nails and iron bits, but those deep ones I have to take my time with the swing and investigate every little mid-and-high tone burp. There are likely coins 9" and beyond - which would be older - but it will take experience and patience to find those...meanwhile I'm soaking up all pertinent info I can - regardless of where I find it...

I know I'm using a different detector, but reading other posts from users with other models also helps me with my hunts, especially in this rocky, iron infested difficult site!!!
 
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