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Interesting experiment with fast off in trash

D

digitrich

New member
I have always hunted in thick trash with fast on and deep off because that is just the way you are "supposed" to. One particular site which has produced countless Seated and Indians, I have gridded the trash with every coil I own, my SE's, Etrac, and F75. It has gotten to the point where I can get skunked in a 4 or 5 hour hunt, things are getting pretty slim. Yesterday, I turned off fast and turned deep on and picked up a few targets in the thickest trash, which surprised me. Apparently, having fast off seemed to improve the audio just enough to squeeze out a few more keepers. Deep on might be the reason I was able to find some really tiny targets (some small 22 cal bullets, and some pea size cuff links). So before you write a site off, try the trash with fast off and deep on, you just have to go even slower.:detecting:
 
Good advice thanks I will try it. I have a spot that has to have some old stuff the iron is very thick. I used my fisher id-excel some on the spot but i need the depth of my e-trac to get down to the good layer.
 
When i was hunting in my iron and junk ridden area in Florida, Bryce and me talked about ways to scrach out a few more and he recommended fast off.... just because of what you mentioned, it improves the signal. Its not recommended for the most part because you could pass over close targets... but when im hunting slow it works great. I use a 9 gain so normally im hunting with both fast and deep OFF... personal choice i guess for me. Great info to pass along digitrich.

Dew
 
he had me turn fast off in the trash. He felt it improved the signal quality for him on deeper stuff even though the manual said fast on was better. I gave it a shot and after messing with it for a while I have kept fast off like Bryce recommended. It did seem to help give a more crisp sound on deep coins in trash so I have been hunting fast off for almost a year now.
That's what I found out anyway. I don't find much; but did start doing better in cruddy spots.
 
When I first got my Explorer XS back in fall 2001, that is all I used for hunting, Deep On only. I did very well with Deep On and felt that I was getting everything I was swinging over. Then a few years down the road, a friend of mine using the same machine but with Fast On only, got a signal and it was in with a lot of trash. I tried it and couldn't get much of anything for a signal due to Iron and Junk present. He dug that target and it turned out to be a keeper. I can't remember off hand what it was but it was an old coin. After that, I tried Fast On only and have done better in Junky area's due to the switch. I have never tried detecting with both Fast and Deep Off before so this maybe something new for me to try and will when I can. Anyways, the warning is about using Deep On only in Junky and Iron laden area's. You have to remember that having Deep On only makes the detector analyze the target more closely, thus if Iron is present and your not swinging in the right direction or angle, you will either get a totally different ID or nothing at all. It will depend on the amount of Iron for the most part to totally miss a good target so this is something to keep in mind. There was 1 time that I was detecting and just dug a Merc and started swinging and just momentarily looked at the Digital Screen because I was over a null. I seen a 28 register but no sound what so ever was present. I tried over and over swinging the coil trying to get something for a signal but nothing. I decided to dig just to see what could be registering 28, like a coin does. I dug down and to my surprise was another Mercury Dime. There was too much Iron present for the coil to give a signal thus almost passing up a coin that would still be waiting to be found. This is just one example of why I choose to run Fast On now and go super slow in Iron Infested and Junk laden area's. I also use the Joey Coil if the site is too bad for bigger coils like the Pro Coil. Anyways, I hope this gives some of you user's some extra thought about using Deep On in very Trashy area's. It can be used if the Trash is moderate but once it gets to be mixed with Iron, then the chances of getting a signal diminish greatly. Hope this helps! Good Luck and HH to you all.:thumbup:
 
I think what you said is textbook James. I dont normally hunt with fast off in trash... but after beating a place to death you have to get creative... ive even got a pattern i hunt after everything elce fails. Does it work... surpriseingly well. One of the biggest things id recommend especially if you are running hot is to always center the target and get it at different angles. Most of us know on deep targets they tend to hit farther back on the coil for the best reading. You can tell that just from pinpointing and finding that your target has moved to the far right or more toward the back of the coil. Great info James.

Dew
 
you may get a double signal that is hard to locate even in pinpointing. Usually, these targets are either pieces of copper wire and also can be a coin sitting at either on edge or at a weird angle in the ground, thus the double signal. Trying to pinpoint these tricky targets can be difficult since they seem to move around when you try from different angles. Some of these targets can be really rewarding, usually a Silver Dime will do this. Just something else to look for when hunting in the trash. I also agree that the target will be further back on the coil when they are very deep so this is another way to get off when retrieving some targets. Thanks for pointing that out Dew. Good Luck and HH.:thumbup:
 
James

I appreciate your knowledge and experience. I have a little bit different thoughts regarding DEEP on. I was not aware that the microprocessor was taking any longer/closer look at the target. My feeling is that DEEP on only increased the gain for deeper targets while leaving the gain unmodified for shallow targets. In other words DEEP on has little or no effect on recovery time and therefore target separation. My thought was that it was the function of FAST on to reduce the length of time that the microprocessor examines the target and therefore reduces recovery time. I would really like some clarification of my thought process on the matter. I have historically hunted DEEP on and FAST off. Based upon your comments, I will be giving DEEP off and FAST on a closer look.

Thanks and HH,
Glenn
 
Fast off and deep on in trash. It works somewhat, but, you have to go sloooooow. The tendency to loose patience and swing faster is always there. I was in all metal, I don't believe it would work with any disc as it probably would take too long for the machine to come back from the nulling. James, I have the Joey coil and it doesn't seem to like my SE's, all targets just in front of the coil give a silver high tone false when they are iron with my normal settings, which are AM, ferrous tones, gain 7 auto 27 or manual- barely stable, fast on deep off, normal response. I am wondering if I turn fast off, whether the Joey coil wouldn't settle down some. You have had great success with that coil, I really wish I could get it to perform. Maybe its my audio variable limits, set at 10, do you run yours lower James?

I also tried both deep and false off, not much of an improvement over fast off and deep on, if anything, the signal became harder to nail, especially the small ones. Deep on seemed to really point out the small targets better. I also found it much easier to find small targets with my SR probe with fast off (22 shells and small lead bullets). Normally it is a severe struggle to get the probe to pick up targets that small in my dirt pile with fast on, the probe nearly needs to touch the bullet to register. With fast off and deep on, I could get twice the distance out of the probe on those really tiny targets. I am beginning to wonder if my Etrac wouldn't perform better with fast off, as the audio on it is just chopped and screechy, compared to the smooth tones of my se's. That's another day's experiment.

I also tried pushing my gain to 10, yes, 10. At first I was intimidated by the screeching falses, 1 or 2 every foot. I then tried to think of it as all metal and tried to have my ears tune out the high screeches and start listening for the high and medium tones tones. Well, that seemed to do the trick and I was able to dig mostly medium tones and a few high tones. It is some work, but with my gain at ten I started to dig some repeating signals in an area I couldn't get a repeating signal otherwise. Most were horse tack and twenty two shells, but then several were small jewelry, bullets, silver plate, and lead container tops. I think I would almost need to be in a very tranquil state of mind first:smoke: to have that kind of patience and concentration. :rofl: I could get away with a gain of 10 if I ran in auto sensitivity, but in manual sensitivity at 27 I had to turn the gain down to 9 or it just went nuts. I was using the SR 8 coil.:detecting:
 
The gain to me works like modulation on the audio. However, the fast affects the recovery as does the Deep. If you have ever used a DFX its like... fast is 30 on the recovery numbers, but when you move it to 10 its deep and allows more filtering and a bit longer look at the target. Thats where you get the increased sensitivity from deep on to smaller targets and why you might miss targets if you are moving too fast. I think Andy mentioned this in his book when he talked about Deep on "allows the explorer to have more signal available to analyze" for those deeper targets resulting in a more accurate ID. If im correct it does this by using a different filter to increase the target signal but has little affect on shallow targets.
 
If you are using Fast On only, this will in turn make the signals respond quicker, thus a quicker response time. The processor will only analyze the target for a brief moment and then send the signal back to the detector and give the ID of what it thinks it is due to the brief scan. Using Deep On only, will let the processor examine the target a little more closely and calculate what the target is and then send the signal. Deep will boost the signal just a bit but it seems to actually examine targets more, at least what I have seen since I have owned my Explorer. If you went over a trashy area using Deep On and there were coins among this, it would depend on how close the targets were from each other and what the other misc. targets were composed of. If you had iron next to a coin, the ID will be off since the coil is seeing the iron and the coin and then it will either give a false ID or it may just pass over the coin and not give a signal at all. Of course, if you were using All-Metal, you maybe able to get some kind of signal telling you that there maybe something next to Iron but I am sure there is still coins in iron that are masked too much for the detector to give a signal. This is also one reason you have to slow way down when using Deep On. If you go too fast you will miss targets that are either very deep or that have too much trash or iron next to them, thus passing them up. Using Fast On will make the processor respond faster in trash and iron and give you a better chance at getting some kind of signal that will get you to stop and investigate closer. Gain is what amplifies the signal strength which if used at max will make 6" targets sound like targets that are on top of the ground. Now if you turned the Gain down, the signal gets weaker and then 6" targets will give less of a signal which some like so they can distinguish deeper targets from shallow targets. Anyways, I hope this gives you a better understanding and helps you out in the field. These are only my opinions and I could be wrong but what I have seen in the many years of detecting, I am sure that Deep and Fast serve these purposes due to many test's in the field. Again, I hope this help. Good Luck and HH to you.:thumbup:
 
James;

I have a pretty good understanding of the Explorer II theory, but there is a question of how beneficial this understanding is in the field. I also agree with everything you said except what the DEEP function does. My understanding is based upon what the manual says and my own experience (which is no where near the level of your experience). I realize that one has to be careful about thinking you know everything by reading the manual. The reason is that the manual has to be rather simplistic in order to not overwhelm the average reader.

In the Explorer II manual on page 86 it gives a three sentence description of the DEEP function.
* Increases the gain on only the weak signals.
* Does not effect the strong signals. Therefore, DEEP is a non-linear function (does not effect every signal the same way).
* There is no mention regarding effect on recovery time. Perhaps there is or perhaps there isn't.

On page 86 it also describes the FAST function.
* The Explorer has faster reaction (recovery) to target signals. This is what helps separate good targets from trash.
* Discrimination is degraded. This is because there is less time to analyze the target signals

In the final analysis: There is nothing that trumps experience. Finding what works best for you as a hunter is what really counts. I will definitely give the DEEP off and FAST on. a chance to improve my hunting skills.

Thanks for you help,
Glenn
 
Actually I'm glad that Kirk posted what he did and I believe that his info is directly from the manual. The true meaning of FAST & DEEP is probably one of the more misunderstood features of the Explorer along with Sensitivity. Part of this is due to the poor naming conventions that Minelab chose for these functions.

As Kirk states, I believe that DEEP ON only boosts the gain for weaker (not neccessarily deeper) targets - as he said this causes the machine to react non-linearly to various targets - I don't believe that the machine spends and more or less CPU cycles analyzing the target than if DEEP were OFF. From my own experience it seems to make all targets sound basically the same regardless of depth which I'm not sure I like - it causes me to turn the volume down in my headphones and now somewhat shallow targets sound similar to deeper ones. I think that most novice users think it makes the machine "deeper" (similar though error applies to Sensitivity).

FAST ON from what I recall does exactly what Kirk said - less CPU cycles analyzing the target causing possible less accuracy in target ID on the screen, but it seems that the audio doesn't seem to be affected (can anyone confirm this?) I also wonder whether it allows the machine to recover from a null faster than if FAST were OFF (someone please confirm this too).

I remember way back when some were advocating running with FAST & DEEP ON and there was a lot of discussion regarding this "mode" on the forum. Finally a Minelab guy chimed in and said that this was a bad mode to run it as the two setting would work against each other causing the machine to be "unstable" (oddly enough some of the stock programs on the E-Trac also have FAST and DEEP ON directly from Minelab). In retrospect however, after reading Kirk's excellent post, I wondering whether this guy even knew what he was talking about as it seems that these settings are totally independent of each other and that FAST & DEEP on would only cause the machine to spend less time analyzing the target with regard to the screen and cause weaker sounding targets to sound louder in your headphones. In addition, one can think of FAST affecting the cursor on the screen and DEEP affecting audio - I believe that these two mediums are driven by different circuits in the machine (someone please confirm this too).

Having said all of this, I don't really care much for DEEP ON as I hunt mostly by sound and I want deep targets to sound deep. I don't often use FAST ON, but perhaps I should consider using it more in parks and sites where there is more trash.

Good post Kirk!
 
I dont know if you are correct on LESS CPU cycles with Fast on. If it cycles MORE then it goes on to the next sampling of the soil under the coil quicker causing less information and less accuracy for TID. The manual clearly says with FAST ON it gives a better audio response... but Fast off for me seems to give less of a chop to the signal at the expense of missed close targets. The manual for the SE also says with FAST ON the detector "will" react faster to the signals received (page54). Which to me means its cycling faster.

For the likes of me i cant think of the aussies' name that did a vidio with one of the top techs at Minelab who said exactly what you said Erik.. FAST and DEEP ON CONFLICED with each other. I beleave the manual kind of referred to it where it said with both on there was "less accurate discrimination and TID;amplified signals for small targets response time is similar to DEEP and FAST OFF.

Sometimes these conversations can be difficult because we know whats happening in the field but there isnt enough technical info put out by the company on the HOW and WHY of our equipment.... and maybe thats part of the learning curve. It never hurts to use every option or think outside of the box to find that edge that might just get us a bit of depth or better audio. Good info everyone
 
and try both Manual and Semi-Auto to see which runs the smoothest first. I think part of the problem could be using All-Metal since the detector is trying to respond to every metal item in the ground. I am sure that the angles of all the different targets play some part in this problem which will cause more falses due to the amount of targets present. What I try to do when hunting the trash is to only focus on the nose or front part of the Joey coil and overlap each swing since this will make the coil sniff thru all those targets and increase the chance of getting the signals you are looking for. I also might be having more success since I am using Conduct Tones with a -10 Iron Mask. I don't hear all the Iron but a null and that just makes me crawl slowly in these areas giving the coil a chance to see what is in the ground. If I get a signal that sounds like a false, then I will get just above that target and do the minelab wiggle which will tell me if the target is in one area or if it is just a false signal. It takes practice and a lot of patience to hunt spots like this but it can pay off big. I also use -22 Semi-Auto with the Gain set to 10.

My Variability is also set to 10 so I don't think that is the problem. But then again, when I tested an Se I noticed that it had to be set up a little different than my XS. I think it's because of how fast it responds and the Se might not have to be run that hot to perform as well.

Using Deep On will increase or amplify the signal on deeper targets and that is why you started picking up more small items. Here is the diagram from Mastering The Minelab Explorer XS & S Handbook written by Andy Sabisch which is on page 57. This shows the recovery speed between Normal and Fast. Now if Fast is about 1/4th the bar that Normal is, then I would imagine that Deep would be about 3/4th's of the bar. The first sentence reads the effect recovery speed has on target separation and identification is shown above. What people don't realize is that recovery speed is actually helping in 2 ways. The first is faster or slower responding time between targets and the second part is during this time, the detector gets either a small window of time to look at a target and ID it (Fast On) or a longer window of time to ID it more accurately (Deep On). This is why in the manual it states that using Fast On in trashy sites is recommended and in cleaner sites, Deep On is recommended. The more targets under the coil creates more of a masking problem to properly identify targets if using Deep On. That is why I choose Fast On since the response is faster. This will increase more choppy signals and falses but one can tell after awhile which are falses and which are actual targets that the user is looking for.

There could be one other issue here and that would be using the Joey Coil in grass that is wet from dew or after a rain shower. The Joey isn't waterproof and I have noticed that after a short time using it in these environments that it will start to false more than normal. Maybe this is part of the reason for the ID problems and falses. It's tough to tell without being there and experiencing it in person.

I hope maybe something here will help you out with your problem. The Joey Coil is a terrific coil for trashy sites and I wish I could be more of help. I would try lower sensitivity once and make sure to noise cancel before every hunt. I noise cancel in the air, at least a foot off of the ground to make sure it isn't picking up any targets or receiving any signals. Again, hope something here is of use to you Digitrich. Let me know if you need any further assistance with questions anytime and I will try my best to answer them for you. Good Luck and HH.:detecting: [attachment 122502 Diagram.jpg]
 
Mastering The Minelab Explorer XS & S Handbook written by Andy Sabisch. Note the first sentence. I feel that the recovery speed actually plays 2 parts here. Recovery Speed and Identification. It only makes sense if you look at the diagram. Note how long the Normal recovery is compared to the Fast recovery. Now during these times, the detector has either a shorter time or a longer time to identify the target in the ground and also will give a weaker signal or a stronger signal from the target present. Deep on does amplify the signal strength, and I do agree on this 100%, but I think also the detector is analyzing the target closer at this time and giving better ID on the target it has just passed over. I have seen this in cleaner sites where I get deeper targets that will bounce around a bit in Fast On but when you change over to Deep On, then the ID and Signal become more clear and the ID doesn't fluctuate as much and stays in one general location. Anyways, maybe seeing this diagram will get others to think about this subject a little more since I think that the recovery speed indeed plays a role in the identification process of the Explorers. Hope this helps. Good Luck and HH.:thumbup:[attachment 122515 Diagram.jpg]
 
...at the very least, this will give me a good excuse to dig in the trash (again)!

thanks to everybody for their insight.
 
James;

I have Andy's book and am very familiar with the diagram you showed. I think this is a nearly perfect pictorial representation of what happens with FAST on or off. I believe that you and I are in agreement about what the FAST function does. I appreciate the dialog. My plan now is to gain a better understanding of the DEEP function and its effect in the field.

Keep up the good work,
Glenn
 
Since the processor speed is fixed, what I meant by using LESS CPU cycles in FAST ON was that the detector spends less time analyzing the signal before it reports back to the user. Then it starts the process over again. So in other words less CPU cycles per sample yields more samples per minute. Factoring in noise this would account for the choppier audio and jumpier cursor with FAST ON. If DEEP ON only boosts the gain (audio) on weaker signals then it would seem that these processes are completely independent of each other - however weaker noise signals would be boosted too - maybe this is what they mean when the say it causes "instability" - though if you're going slow and digging repeatable signals I'm curious if there would be an issue.
 
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