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Is the Explorer a true multi-frequency detector or not?

A

Anonymous

Guest
I'm not sure if this is the correct place to ask this question or not, but, your guys here seem to have a very good understanding of detector electronics compared to some of the other forums.
I've heard several people state that the Explorer really operates on 2 or 3 frequencies at a time.
It does seem to be able to get deeper than any other detector I've used so far, what is it about this detector that seems to give an edge over some of the other brands? Thanks.
 
Dan, all this stuff about so many frequencies is misleading hype generated by a certain company's advertising department. The real issue is how many independent signals you analyze. The Fisher CZ's and White's DFX's do four. Since there's little advantage in going beyond five or six, I would suppose that the Minelab BBS and Explorer series do no more than that. Perhaps someone who actually knows can give a definite answer.
Now that other question you asked... if I were to explain why, that would be tantamount to admitting it were true, something that would not earn me any brownie points. Perhaps someone who doesn't work in this industry (or even someone who works for Minelab) can fill in for me on that one.
--Dave J.
 
If so, wouldn't Minelab be opening the door to a lawsuit, concerning false advertising? I don't understand how they could be so bold to mislead us, the users, concerning the number of operating frequencies the Explorer is suppose to transmit. Just some things a buddy and I have been wondering about.
 
Interesting point. I have been waiting for some one over here in Australia to take Minelab to "task" on a lot of their claims. Some blokes really put the boot in. I think it has some to do with the "Tall Poppy" syndrome and that it sometimes seems there are a few "unhappy" detector people. Of course I could be wrong about this observation and I put it to you that if Minelab have broken any of the rules in our at-least the Australian Trade Practises Act, then rest assured that they would be upto their eye balls in "it". They would have to do a lot of things to "make good" on thier claims if they were in any way misleading.
First place that you would find any of their "mis-givings" on such matters, if they had any, is at the Australian Competition and Consumer Council or ACCC web site .
So far , to date, there are no complaints registered against Minelab on that site. Not any at- least that I could find. This probably means that either, no body has reported them for any "misleading" advertising, which I assure you would be the same in it's "hype" here in Australia as any other part of the world, or they are truly "above board" in their claims.
At the rsik of seeming that I am trying to earn "brownie" points, I'm not , I beleive Minelab's claims would have to be legit this can only be put down to the fact that their products so, far have given me and very many others some very good results, with or with out what they claim.
The results speak for themselves.
Do not get me wrong as I, like many other consumers would like to think that I am getting what I paid for, but, I for one , did not buy the Explorer XS because it claims to use all those frequencies. I bought it because it is an extremely good as a metal detector and when I saw that it could do that preciseley , it won me over.
So when and if any of you guys think you have "cornered" Minelab, why don't you notify the ACCC and let them know. There are a lot of guys in that dept who would just LOVE to hear from you. They will look into all and any complaints if any very discretely. Atleast then you can leave sleeping dogs lie or get what some have been looking for.....blood or something like it.
Have a good one
Hardnose
 
I was told by Minelab that it is 4 frequencies with harmonics used to run the number up to the claimed total but if you go to the Geotechnology forum they have recently tested Fisher CZ's,Whites DFX and the Explorer and find that Fisher and Whites have two and the Explorer three. (postings were about mid January). If you refer back to Eric Fosters P.I. forum he has posted that if you add harmonics then his Deepstar has 197 frequencies.
 
I'll give you my understanding, & say I may be
wrong because I got the info. that satisfied me
from the forum's.
There are 11 channel's in noise cancel circuit
each channel caries a veried number of freq. &
combination of freq. Hence when you choose the
quietest channel your chooseing the best
combination of freq. for the area your hunting.
Does the detector produce 28 freq. at same time,
yes it does, but the noise cancel circuit
utilizes the best combo of freq. for spific
ground condition's.
Even if I found this not to be true, wouldn't
matter to me, the detector perform's great.
I've owned 21 detector's & this is the best
performing detector ever.
My #2 machine at this time is a Whites XL PRO
but it can't begin to compete with my Exp.
These are my openion's & certainly not educated.
Don't quote me on anything, you may have to eat
crow. HH to all....jim
 
I suppose it doesn't really matter if it only uses 1, it still has outperform all the detectors I've ever used up to this point. Anyone hear about anything in the works that will give the Explorer a good run for it's money????
 
I think :
does really matter ?
Does its job greatly and then is a great metal detector anyway !
What I mean is ***the end user don't worry about multifrequency, pulse induction, bla bla bla
HE WANTS ONLY PERFORMANCE, EASY-TO-USE CONTROLS AND AS FEW AS POSSIBLE AND MAYBE DISCRIMINATION - NOTHING ELSE***
Only the expert want's to know HOW
Martin
 
Hi Jim ,
Just to add my own findings on the explorer Noise Cancel function. once pressed the machine starts raising its master clock frequency thro 0 - 11 incremental steps and locks onto one, after listening to its reciever for the one with least background noise. all the timing seems to stay in the same sync, but just the master osc is shifted by a few 10's of Hz + or -.
you can listen to the detector clock without opening the case from outside using a stable shortwave reciever with SSB or CW around 24Mhz
and using a small aerial wire close to the explorer control box tune around until you hear the beat note then press noise button.
Rob..
 
Unless I'm reading something different, it looks like the Fisher is 1 frequency, utilizing the fundamental, and the third harmonic on the receive.
Here is a cut from Carl's post.
"I did not bother shooting the CZ7 'cause it's just a 5kHz square wave. Fisher uses the fundamental and the third harmonic (15kHz) as its two frequencies. TX amplitude was 9.8vpp."
 
HOW ADVERTISING WORKS
This is an essay on how advertising works, with special application to the underground locating and detecting industry. Many people do not want to know how advertising works, because knowing how it works means admitting to the fact we're all gullible.
CAVEAT LECTOR
If you would rather not know, please do not proceed any further-- this post is not for you.
PICKIN' ON MINELAB?
I'm going to be accused of "picking on Minelab".
It was an apparent supporter of Minelab who raised the ante on the advertising issue and invited a reply. This is that reply. Neither that person nor I created a controversy regarding Minelab's advertising-- it was Minelab's advertising that created that controversy.
This is an essay on how advertising works, inclusive of how controversial advertising works, using this industry as an example.
TECHNICAL QUESTION: HOW MANY FREQUENCIES?
Does the Sovereign "transmit 17 frequencies"? Sure, so do the CZ's and DFX's. If you want the CZ's and DFX's and even the Sovereign to transmit 28, they probably do that, too. If Minelab didn't like the number 17 (back in the Sovereign days) they'd have picked some other number. With the Explorer they picked 28. Why 17 and 28? Maybe it was time for coffee break. Maybe that was the noise floor of their spectrum analyzer test setup. Maybe somebody's into numerology and thinks that 17 and 28 are magic numbers. I don't know.
Somebody does know. Maybe they'll let us in on an amusing story.
ADVERTISING HYPE
Those of us who are engineers and willing to admit to the excellence of Minelab's basic technology, know why the Sovereign and the Explorer have the performance they do. And it isn't because they transmit upteen gazillion "frequencies".
The 17 and 28 are advertising hype until someone from Minelab explains why they're not. To my knowledge that's never happened, and I'm not expecting it to happen either. Until then, my explanation is better than theirs.
The law in most countries gives advertisers a lot of latitude to stretch the truth and make misleading statements. We've seen advertising all our lives, and by now we ought to know how it works. Some folks hold to the opinion that Minelab's ads are a bit more "Extreme" than those of other companies (to cite a specific example), but they probably haven't broken the law. And if they have, I'd say "let 'em!" for reasons shortly to be explained.
WHY I LIKE MINELAB'S ADVERTISING
It is a fundamental principle of advertising, that the amount of creativity required of the ad copy is inversely proportional to the merit of the product. That's why (in the U.S.A. at least) we have "Merit" brand cigarettes, but not "Merit" toilet paper. We already know the merits of toilet paper (but didn't know the stuff was charming until the Charmin' brand told us so).
Minelab's approach to advertising suggests that their advertising department, at least, believes that Minelab's products have little merit.
I happen to think that Minelab's ad dept. was misled, and that Minelab's products do have merit. But since I happen to be competing with Minelab, I am pleased that their advertising creates doubt concerning the integrity of their product.
WHY "FREQUENCIES"?
Advertising is always about psychology. In the case of products which have no merit, there are no suitable facts to drawn on to produce the desired psychological result, so those desired psychological results must be produced through creative fictions. Most advertising, even for products which do have merit and about which relevant facts can be cited, does rely on creative fictions to some degree.
It is human nature to want to be lied to. The most successful creative fictions are the ones which pander to our desire to be lied to, because a fiction believed which is a lie, is defended more vigorously against reason than something which was believed on the basis of evidence rather than because it was a desirable lie. There are few things about which we like to be lied to more than about sex, hence the widespread and successful use of sex in advertising.
In the field of underground detection, most people have dreams of finding valuable things. This is not a bad thing. "Treasure hunting" in its broadest sense can be a lot of fun and can even be remunerative. However, some people's dreams are completely disconnected from reality, and subconsciously they know this. Therefore they want to be lied to about those dreams, and there is a whole industry dedicated to giving those people what they want. I refer to the high end of the so-called "long-distance locater" industry.
Before I go any further, let me make it clear that I am not an opponent of dowsing, and have no quarrel with dowsing rods which are honestly advertised as such. And, although I may not know how LDL's work (supposing that they do), I do know how advertising works.
You may have noticed, based on advertising, that dowsing rods honestly advertised as such, seem to be a pretty small fraction of the total LDL market. It ain't a coincidence that the LDL industry is one in which highly successful (from a marketing point of view) low end products are conspicuously absent. The people who buy honestly advertised dowsing rods are people who don't want to be lied to-- and they are evidently in a distinct minority.
What do we see in the advertising for high-end LDL's? Claims which, in order to have their desired effect on the customer, have to maintain an appearance of falsehood, because the typical customer for high-end LDL's wants to be lied to. It'll find a gold coin at 50 miles, but won't find the gold ring on your finger, or the bullion coins your neighbor has stashed in his underwear drawer. It'll find gold 10 miles deep (how are your digging skills?) but not two inches deep. We're a ways beyond "advertising puffery" here, aren't we?
And there's the words, for instance "frequency". For most people, the word "frequency" is a word which appears to mean something really important, but nobody seems to know just what that something is! Walk past the New Age section of your bookstore-- how many of the book covers have the word "frequency" on them? How many other words (quantum, aura, chakra, field, harmonic, etc.) which seem to mean something really important but nobody knows just what? This ought to tell you something about how and why the word "frequency" is used in advertising.
Look at the high-end LDL advertisements. What do you see? Why?
Now, look at the ads for multiple frequency metal detectors. What do you see? Why is it there?
"FREQUENCIES" AND PIGEON DROPS
Some scams have been so successful over time, that they've earned their own names, like "Shell Game", "Ponzi Scheme", and "Pigeon Drop". I would like to add one to the list which has been eminently successful in recent times, "Frequency".
Many scams owe their success to the fact they sound very plausible and convincing. But there is a special class of scams that work precisely because their basic premise is nonsense.
Probably the best known nonsense scam is "Pigeon Drop." It makes so little sense, I can never even remember how the plot goes, but you can find it on the web or ask any banker. The underlying psychology of why the scam succeeds is that the victim knows it's nonsense, and refuses to admit that it's nonsense, thereby keeping him/her self in the game until he/she has been fleeced.
That is the same psychology as the word "frequency". Most people don't know what it means, and aren't willing to admit that to themselves, so once they've bitten the bait, they refuse to let go of it.
Of course, "frequency" is a relevant fact for some products, and the word ought to used in the advertising for such products. But even then, the word can be used for purposes beyond the need to convey accurate information.
DOES THE EXPLORER GO DEEPER, etc?
If Minelab's products go deeper, it's not because that capability was built into them by the advertising department. It was put there by the engineering department.
--Dave J.
 
You should post that over on the LRL forum, you'll get roasted! True words tho...
- Carl
 
it seems , yet again that you have aimed most of the assumptions mostly toward Minelab. I just like to see some fair play and do not want to seem that I am biased in my opinions. I do not work or have any association with Minelab and a I m just putting up a point of view and also acting as the "devils advocate", for want of a better word/s.
Okay, like I said and let me put to you again, if you really think you have the "ammo" that would prove that a "spade is a spade" then put your findings forward. There are no "hairs to split" when it comes to advertising with claims that can not be substantiated. It has been made very clear to us especially here in Australia, on what you can or can not put forward in the claims that a company makes about their product. If Minelab or any other company can be shown to have used misleading and deceptive advertising and if there is a shadow of doubt over there claims and you can show this, then step forward. Not to me of course, but to the relevant authority.
If there is a level playing field out there for all those concerned then they should be allowed to flourish. The ACCC has cracked down on a lot of these scams nationally and are now perusing the NET for those other products that make outlandish claims. If Minelab fit the criteria, then, please cast the first stone. I do not doubt you're claims on advertising and it's control on many of us with power over the human psychology with it
 
Hi Rob,
Thanks for the information, glad to see some manufacturers addressing the external noise problems, with solutions that fit the general public (have to make it automatic nowadays). Guess thats part of what you pay money for.
At least you get something for the cost, lots of things you don't.
Very clever how you figured out how to "hear" this without even touching the detector.
JC
 
Sorry, Hardnose, I don't have time for a lengthly response at the moment, but I'll try to do a decent quickie.
Thank you for playing "devil's advocate". Do it myself now and then.
I didn't suggest that you had any connection with Minelab, other than that you seem to be a supporter of Minelab. There are lots of people who support Minelab because they like Minelab's products. I myself find a lot to like in some of Minelab's products. I got to play with what was probably the first Minelab prototype to reach U.S.A. soil back in the 1980's, and since that day I have considered Minelab a worthy competitor.
Here and on the Finders forum, I have upon occasion defended Minelab, Mr. Candy, and Mr. Candy's patent attorneys against what I thought was poorly informed criticism.
As far as I know, this forum is just as open to people who represent Minelab as it is to everyone else. If someone at Minelab sees me post something that they think is wrong and they wish to set the record straight, I welcome them to do so.
Laws are written in large part to reflect cultural values, and since Australian and U.S.A. cultures are fairly similar, I expect that Aussie and Yankee advertising law would be fairly similar in what is or isn't allowable.
Minelab's most recent Explorer ad is in front of me at this very moment (Feb 02 W&ET). The single-dual-28 frame is misleading and deceptive. That's what is, deceptive and misleading; what else can it be called? A non-engineer might not know this, but all metal detector engineers, including Minelab's engineers, know this.
A skilled ad copywriter from outside this industry who knew nothing about metal detectors would also figure it out. The frame in question is just a little piece of "artistic license" unaccompanied by advertising claims or explanatory material, revealing that its function is to be misleading and deceptive without being provably false.
It is an expected professional skill and responsibility of an ad copywriter to create deceptive and misleading advertising when he or she believes that is the best way to promote the product. You and I may not like this, but that's how the world is. I'd rather that advertising got cut that much slack than to have brainless censors imposing their whims on everything.
It is also the expected professional skill and responsibility of an ad copywriter to keep his or her client out of legal trouble. Deceptive and misleading if necessary, but not likely to lead to problems with bureaucrats. Walking this line is like driving over the speed limit-- how far can we push it without getting caught, and what's it gonna cost us if we do get caught? I doubt that the Explorer ad breaks the law, but the bottom line is they've gotten away with it.
If Minelab were selling high-end LDL's, their advertising would be laughed off the page for not being sufficiently deceptive and misleading.
If Minelab's products lack merit, then to say the advertising is deceptive and misleading is a complement. If saying that is criticism, then the product has merit.
--Dave J.
 
Thanks JC,
I always try to suggest non invasive ways of analysing how these devices operate without suggesting anyone should open up their machine and invalidate the guarantee.
lots of info can be gleaned from external monitering of circuits with a scope and inductive probes connected to recievers to listen to the heartbeats.
Rob..
 
A couple years ago it seemed like nearly every high end LDL had either "frequencies" or "harmonics". It's been awhile since I paid the LDL ads much attention.
Last night I took a look at some recent LDL ads. Guess what? Everyone who wants to be told that LDL's have "frequencies" or "harmonics" has already bought one. For reasons that ought to be obvious, they're not in the market for another such.
So the manufacturers had to abandon that. Now they're offering "gravitation" and "gauss".
I have a suggestion to those manufacturers: when you've worn out the market for the words "gravitation" and "gauss", try the phrase "pulse induction" and flog that one till it's dead too. By that time, there may be a revived market for "frequencies", and you can go back to the top of the buzzword list.
Technologies that actually work don't have to be abandoned as soon as people find out whether they work or not. Like for instance "frequencies" and "harmonics" in metal detectors. Pulse induction's been around a long time and it'll still be around when the LDL manufacturers have abandoned it.
Sorry if I gave anybody a bum steer and they went looking for "frequencies" in high-end LDL ads and came up empty-handed.
It is my assertion that when it comes to high-end LDL's and other such stuff, there is no need to debate whether or not maybe they "work". Analysis of the advertising shows that the manufacturers of that equipment are certain that their products don't work. If the manufacturers of the stuff are sure it's no good, why would anyone want to debate them on that score?
This post was primarily for clearing up an error in a prior post which was not primarily about LDL's. Since LDL's are off-topic here, I request that anyone who wishes to reply to my comments on LDL's please do so at www.treasurenet.com's long range locator forum, which I will monitor. Thank you.
--Dave J.
 
Eric, I thought I was quite respectful of you posting on Treasurenet LRL forum. Dell
 
Jim, are you any relation to James Searcy who lived in S. Miami Florida during the 1950's? Dell
 
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