The vids I just watched on the new Tesoro Mojave are very impressive for the amount of money spent. What I gooled was (Tesoro Mojave Reviews) . I'm would like to pick up another detector, and from what I have seen on the vids I believe this is going to be it. -------------------------------------------------------------------after1-------------------------------
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Just watched vids on a new detector
- Thread starter After-1-
- Start date
Just watched the videos. I'm not impressed. Many of the 2-filter tesoros can do the separation exercises he shows. And notice he never shows a coin UNDER a nail (to demonstrate see-through or averaging ability).
And his supposed "trick" of telling tabs + aluminum apart from gold is nothing more that scores of machines can do: Play with tones and notching and disc. to eliminate commonly recurring junk item sounds. Or things that "don't lock on". But don't forget that a gold ring that is not a flat band, can mimic a square tab. Eg.: a ring with a crown, or a wadded up bracelet, or a oblong gold pendant, etc.... It is UTTERLY UNCONVINCING (except to newbies who don't know any better) to show on a video that a square tab and a sample gold ring "sound different from each other". Well sure! The same can be shown on LOTS of machines. But it doesn't take into account that SO TOO does every aluminum glob or foil wad or bent up tab "sound different from each other too". And it doesn't take into account that SO TOO does every gold ring sound different from each other too. But this video will lead people to believe they can "master a difference". Further hinted at when he says you can "get rid of 70 to 80% of your aluminum targets".
All such tricks of sounds, repeatability, tone, notching and so forth are nothing new to scores of detectors. You will still miss gold items, and you will still dig tons of aluminum. And no, you're NOT "going to get rid of 70 to 80% of your aluminum targets. The "dealer friend" he alludes to has been telling people this for years. Leading newbies to think that "if they excel and practice long enough, they'll be able to tell the difference between gold and aluminum". Yet if you ever asked either of those dealers to meet you in a junky park to test this notion, you QUICKLY realize it's nothing more than random odds.
Any notion that gold "sounded different" than the 100 aluminum targets you just dug, is nothing more than the psychological trick of selective memory bias. It works like this: Whenever you stop to dig a target, you are subconsciously saying to yourself : "This one sounds different". But when it turns out to be cr*p, you will say to yourself: "yeah, come to think of it, it did sound a little junky". But when one FINALLY turns out to be gold, only THEN will you remember your premonitions and think "aha! I knew it !".
If either of these 2 dealers could go to a junky blighted park, full of aluminum and show the supposed skill to be anything more than random chance, or anything more than notching, I'd love to see it. But at a certain point (1 to 50 ? 1 to 100?) you have to start to admit that it's nothing more than random odds. Or notching (which is nothing new and has been around since the early 1980s). The other dealer he alludes to has been on record as saying that it's actually audio (mellow-ness, repeatability, tone, sound, etc...) and not merely notching. I have looked far and wide, and NO ONE can demonstrate this supposed trick, to go into junky parks and not get normally expected punishing ratios of aluminum, before netting a gold ring.
And his supposed "trick" of telling tabs + aluminum apart from gold is nothing more that scores of machines can do: Play with tones and notching and disc. to eliminate commonly recurring junk item sounds. Or things that "don't lock on". But don't forget that a gold ring that is not a flat band, can mimic a square tab. Eg.: a ring with a crown, or a wadded up bracelet, or a oblong gold pendant, etc.... It is UTTERLY UNCONVINCING (except to newbies who don't know any better) to show on a video that a square tab and a sample gold ring "sound different from each other". Well sure! The same can be shown on LOTS of machines. But it doesn't take into account that SO TOO does every aluminum glob or foil wad or bent up tab "sound different from each other too". And it doesn't take into account that SO TOO does every gold ring sound different from each other too. But this video will lead people to believe they can "master a difference". Further hinted at when he says you can "get rid of 70 to 80% of your aluminum targets".
All such tricks of sounds, repeatability, tone, notching and so forth are nothing new to scores of detectors. You will still miss gold items, and you will still dig tons of aluminum. And no, you're NOT "going to get rid of 70 to 80% of your aluminum targets. The "dealer friend" he alludes to has been telling people this for years. Leading newbies to think that "if they excel and practice long enough, they'll be able to tell the difference between gold and aluminum". Yet if you ever asked either of those dealers to meet you in a junky park to test this notion, you QUICKLY realize it's nothing more than random odds.
Any notion that gold "sounded different" than the 100 aluminum targets you just dug, is nothing more than the psychological trick of selective memory bias. It works like this: Whenever you stop to dig a target, you are subconsciously saying to yourself : "This one sounds different". But when it turns out to be cr*p, you will say to yourself: "yeah, come to think of it, it did sound a little junky". But when one FINALLY turns out to be gold, only THEN will you remember your premonitions and think "aha! I knew it !".
If either of these 2 dealers could go to a junky blighted park, full of aluminum and show the supposed skill to be anything more than random chance, or anything more than notching, I'd love to see it. But at a certain point (1 to 50 ? 1 to 100?) you have to start to admit that it's nothing more than random odds. Or notching (which is nothing new and has been around since the early 1980s). The other dealer he alludes to has been on record as saying that it's actually audio (mellow-ness, repeatability, tone, sound, etc...) and not merely notching. I have looked far and wide, and NO ONE can demonstrate this supposed trick, to go into junky parks and not get normally expected punishing ratios of aluminum, before netting a gold ring.
thank you for confirming. That part is "understandable hype", and .... I'm sure he's aware of it, or wasn't trying to make any "exclusive claims" for "just this one" machine, for when it comes to target separation.
But where I DO get a little ... uh ... riled .... is when the whole "aluminum vs gold" notion comes up, where it's insinuated that a particular machine, or a particular brand, with "learned tonal tricks" and "certain control adjustments" can lead the user to pass most aluminum (even giving the 70 to 80% statistic !) and better your odds at gold.
The quickest way to "put a rest" to any such notion, is to simply invite the person making this claim, out to the nearest blighted inner city park. Invite them to show you just how much aluminum they can pass, while digging gold rings. You'll find their claims go silent, and they will not meet you for this challenge. Any of us would be THRILLED to even cut these odds down to 1 in 20 or 1 in 50. But at what point does it become random odds ?
But where I DO get a little ... uh ... riled .... is when the whole "aluminum vs gold" notion comes up, where it's insinuated that a particular machine, or a particular brand, with "learned tonal tricks" and "certain control adjustments" can lead the user to pass most aluminum (even giving the 70 to 80% statistic !) and better your odds at gold.
The quickest way to "put a rest" to any such notion, is to simply invite the person making this claim, out to the nearest blighted inner city park. Invite them to show you just how much aluminum they can pass, while digging gold rings. You'll find their claims go silent, and they will not meet you for this challenge. Any of us would be THRILLED to even cut these odds down to 1 in 20 or 1 in 50. But at what point does it become random odds ?
After-1- said:
Re.: your above boldened print quote: I sent the dealer (who made that video) an email just a little while ago. Inviting him to answer the critiques I've given on this forum. We shall await his response I guess.
As for "saving your money", I'm sure the machine is just fine. It's akin to scores of other 2- filter Tesoros. Thus, sure, they "have their place" in an arsenal, depending on the type hunting you're going to do. And despite his video showing the ability to handle mineralized wet sand, I would still not use a Tesoro for my first choice at wet salt beach hunting in CA.
It will be good for ghost-townsy sites (where nails and iron abound). But is not going to be a depth demon when compared to power-houses currently on the market. Nor will it have the fun bells and whistles of other machines that have TIDs (notice this is just an ascending/descending disc. knob, is all). Thus it's got its place for certain types hunting. But no .... you can't tell aluminum apart from gold, despite what the video seems to imply .
I had found Larry's email address, via his detector dealer website. I emailed him the link to my critique (here on findmall ) asking him to please respond.
Larry emailed me back a simple "call me". I just called him. He said he " ...did not read the link. Nor does he go on blogs or forums" . He says "I just sell metal detectors".
Thus rather than trying to voice my concerns about his video, I just said : "Well , that's fine that you don't chime in on forums, I understand. But if you care to at least read it, and know what is circulating now that others can read. And get back to me with an answer " (even if only on the phone, or in an email to me outside "forum" methods of communication). He did not seem interested. And right then said "I have a call coming in. Have to go". At which we each said goodbye.
So there you have it. He apparently will not be rising to the challenge to answer this. AND SO TOO DOES IT ALWAYS GO when you challenge these people who claim to be able to tell aluminum apart from gold. It is QUITE aggravating. Because you see beginner's eyes wax romantic at the thought of being able to "buy a certain machine that can tell aluminum apart from gold". Or that if they *ONLY* studied and practiced and learned hard enough then .... someday .... THEY TOO will "ascend to the pinnacle of skill like these dealers I'm listening to".
But see the vicious circle ? No matter HOW MUCH aluminum junk the poor newbie digs, the dealer can simply say "you need more learning/practice". Or .... "well gee, there's some aluminum that mimics gold" and so forth.
Then one day, an md'r reading/hearing such claims dares ask for proof (an example of anyone who's EVER gotten odds as claimed in this video) is met with utter silence. They don't read or reply to forums, hence will never see/read your challenge. Thus their "claims" are out there un-answered. And if/when you ever say "show me", they will not meet you in a junky blighted park to show you this supposed skill. And what's very aggravating to me, is that I've actually run into these people who sat dazzled at the feet of these dealers making these claims. Saying to me that they hope .... one day .... to likewise ascend to this skill level. And when I tell them that this isn't possible, and that there's no "sound" or "machine" that can tell aluminum apart from gold, they have a hard time with this counter-claim. Why ? Because after all, it was a DEALER who told them this. How can an all-knowing all-wise dealer be wrong ? They're a "dealer" after all.
No matter what you do to try to call them to accountability (like my efforts now on this thread and with this phone call), they simply don't answer, don't show any proof-results, etc......
Larry emailed me back a simple "call me". I just called him. He said he " ...did not read the link. Nor does he go on blogs or forums" . He says "I just sell metal detectors".
Thus rather than trying to voice my concerns about his video, I just said : "Well , that's fine that you don't chime in on forums, I understand. But if you care to at least read it, and know what is circulating now that others can read. And get back to me with an answer " (even if only on the phone, or in an email to me outside "forum" methods of communication). He did not seem interested. And right then said "I have a call coming in. Have to go". At which we each said goodbye.
So there you have it. He apparently will not be rising to the challenge to answer this. AND SO TOO DOES IT ALWAYS GO when you challenge these people who claim to be able to tell aluminum apart from gold. It is QUITE aggravating. Because you see beginner's eyes wax romantic at the thought of being able to "buy a certain machine that can tell aluminum apart from gold". Or that if they *ONLY* studied and practiced and learned hard enough then .... someday .... THEY TOO will "ascend to the pinnacle of skill like these dealers I'm listening to".
But see the vicious circle ? No matter HOW MUCH aluminum junk the poor newbie digs, the dealer can simply say "you need more learning/practice". Or .... "well gee, there's some aluminum that mimics gold" and so forth.
Then one day, an md'r reading/hearing such claims dares ask for proof (an example of anyone who's EVER gotten odds as claimed in this video) is met with utter silence. They don't read or reply to forums, hence will never see/read your challenge. Thus their "claims" are out there un-answered. And if/when you ever say "show me", they will not meet you in a junky blighted park to show you this supposed skill. And what's very aggravating to me, is that I've actually run into these people who sat dazzled at the feet of these dealers making these claims. Saying to me that they hope .... one day .... to likewise ascend to this skill level. And when I tell them that this isn't possible, and that there's no "sound" or "machine" that can tell aluminum apart from gold, they have a hard time with this counter-claim. Why ? Because after all, it was a DEALER who told them this. How can an all-knowing all-wise dealer be wrong ? They're a "dealer" after all.
No matter what you do to try to call them to accountability (like my efforts now on this thread and with this phone call), they simply don't answer, don't show any proof-results, etc......
Tom in CA--Thank you for your thoughts ,opinion and knowledge of machine's And you say that they is noway to tell the difference between aluminum and gold, I believe there has to be a different sound between the two,its just we don't find enough of the gold to compare the sounds. don't know if this has any bearing on your claim , I can't do this today because my hearing is not that good , I was hunting a site and I was the first to do so, I was there for two days, by the second day when I found a good target, before I dug I knew it was a IH penny, why? They just had a different sound and my hearing at the time was good enough pick it out. Thanks for all the post you do ------------------------------------------------------------after1-----------------------
after1-----You probably don't know this--but you are talking to a gentleman (Tom in CA) that has found more gold coins than 99% of us would find in five life times.-----Soooo, you better pay attention to what he's saying because he knows what he is talking about!---So should this Larry guy dealer--should be hearing him out instead of practically hanging up the phone on him.----I guess that's one way to avoid the truth though---not talk about it.------------Del
After-1- said:
D&P-OR (Del) and after1, thanx for the inputs.
After1, I think your experience (of thinking that IH "sounded different") can be explained in the following way: Each thing we find "sounds different". When you go to dig ANY target, you're thinking (when you stop to stoop down and dig) "this one sounds different". But when it turns out to be junk, you promptly forget your premonitions. However, when one turns out to be a goodie (an IH, or a gold item, etc...), then ONLY THEN do you remember your premonitions and think "aha! I knew it!". That's not to say the item didn't "sound different". Of course it did. All items (with the slightest depth or tilt difference or shape or size or composition) will ALL "sound different" from each other.
It's the trick of selective memory bias. Example: Have you ever woken up to your radio alarm clock TO THE VERY SONG that you were JUST dreaming about. You will think "aha! I'm psychic". But the truth is, we all dream 100's of dreams per night, none of which come true. So we forget them 10 seconds after waking up. However, if one of them coincidentally comes true , then only THEN do you remember and think "aha! I'm psychic !"
I detected with the fellow dealer fellow that this Larry is alluding to. And saw this subconscious trick at play between us (nothing malicious or purposeful, mind you): There was a certain athletic field known amongst md'rs in this area to still pork out some deep hiding old silver and wheaties. Years ago, we had agreed to meet up there to try out a new machine on the market. The idea was, that we would flag signals to compare, then see how this new machine stacked up.
After about an hour, I had flagged a couple of wheaties, and we'd each compare. But I noticed that he, in turn, had not flagged anything that turned out to be an oldie so far . Which was fine, as he too was "just learning" this new machine, so that's not a slam to him or the machine. But I noticed the following psychological trick at play: Each time I'd find a deep high conductor whisper that I'd flag and call him over to hear, he would always concur: "Yup, I hear it" and then proceed to give glowing commentary as to how the machine was correctly calling it, etc.....
I began to suspect that he was subconsciously rating them high, because he knew that I had a reputation for getting deep oldies from this area. What I mean is, .... if someone is POINTING OUT AN EXACT SPOT and "calling" it, then it's only natural that .... when the next person swings OVER THAT EXACT SPOT, their mind will "ramp up" the "call". Especially if you know that the other person is fairly reliable on turf deepies, you'll tend to search your mind for ANY reason to "call it good". I began to wonder if he wasn't subconsciously being taken by this mind trick.
So I PURPOSEFULLY flagged one that I did NOT suspect would be anything except shallow low conductor trash. I called him over. And guess what ? He gave it glowing reviews of high potential. That confirmed that he was merely "ramping up" any signal I showed him. At the end of that hunt, I perhaps had 6 or so oldies (wheaties and a silver or whatever), and he had perhaps 1 + junk and clad. But that can simply be explained by the fact he was trying a brand new machine, so I'm not slamming him for that. Only trying to point out the trick of "memory bias".
After1, I think your experience (of thinking that IH "sounded different") can be explained in the following way: Each thing we find "sounds different". When you go to dig ANY target, you're thinking (when you stop to stoop down and dig) "this one sounds different". But when it turns out to be junk, you promptly forget your premonitions. However, when one turns out to be a goodie (an IH, or a gold item, etc...), then ONLY THEN do you remember your premonitions and think "aha! I knew it!". That's not to say the item didn't "sound different". Of course it did. All items (with the slightest depth or tilt difference or shape or size or composition) will ALL "sound different" from each other.
It's the trick of selective memory bias. Example: Have you ever woken up to your radio alarm clock TO THE VERY SONG that you were JUST dreaming about. You will think "aha! I'm psychic". But the truth is, we all dream 100's of dreams per night, none of which come true. So we forget them 10 seconds after waking up. However, if one of them coincidentally comes true , then only THEN do you remember and think "aha! I'm psychic !"
I detected with the fellow dealer fellow that this Larry is alluding to. And saw this subconscious trick at play between us (nothing malicious or purposeful, mind you): There was a certain athletic field known amongst md'rs in this area to still pork out some deep hiding old silver and wheaties. Years ago, we had agreed to meet up there to try out a new machine on the market. The idea was, that we would flag signals to compare, then see how this new machine stacked up.
After about an hour, I had flagged a couple of wheaties, and we'd each compare. But I noticed that he, in turn, had not flagged anything that turned out to be an oldie so far . Which was fine, as he too was "just learning" this new machine, so that's not a slam to him or the machine. But I noticed the following psychological trick at play: Each time I'd find a deep high conductor whisper that I'd flag and call him over to hear, he would always concur: "Yup, I hear it" and then proceed to give glowing commentary as to how the machine was correctly calling it, etc.....
I began to suspect that he was subconsciously rating them high, because he knew that I had a reputation for getting deep oldies from this area. What I mean is, .... if someone is POINTING OUT AN EXACT SPOT and "calling" it, then it's only natural that .... when the next person swings OVER THAT EXACT SPOT, their mind will "ramp up" the "call". Especially if you know that the other person is fairly reliable on turf deepies, you'll tend to search your mind for ANY reason to "call it good". I began to wonder if he wasn't subconsciously being taken by this mind trick.
So I PURPOSEFULLY flagged one that I did NOT suspect would be anything except shallow low conductor trash. I called him over. And guess what ? He gave it glowing reviews of high potential. That confirmed that he was merely "ramping up" any signal I showed him. At the end of that hunt, I perhaps had 6 or so oldies (wheaties and a silver or whatever), and he had perhaps 1 + junk and clad. But that can simply be explained by the fact he was trying a brand new machine, so I'm not slamming him for that. Only trying to point out the trick of "memory bias".
Then another day, Larry's dealer friend and I were at another park comparing machines and signals. I was in "junky park" mindset. Angling for deep high conductors hiding amidst junk. Although we had set no parameters or goals, I just assumed he was doing the same strategy. And again, we were trading flagged signals.
At a certain point, he called me to listen to one he'd flagged. I told him that I would "pass it". Turned out to be a V-nickel. The dealer got a real kick out of that. And tells people the story, to this day, years later (no doubt to Larry now). I tried to tell him "I thought we were angling for high conductors?" To which he replied "you might miss a gold ring or an old nickel". Well gee, if we'd set up the standards and goals prior to the hunt, then we'd have been on the same page of "what we're listening for". But to no avail. He memorized the line that I "would pass it", and .... lo & behold, it was a V nickel I was later to find out that he had perhaps only 3 or so V nickels, in his entire detecting career , up till that time.
This story (that he was always quick to tell people ever since then) sort of put a bitter taste in my mouth. I'd run into beginners who this dealer (and now Larry it seems) was trying to tell them they could ascend to tell aluminum apart from gold. Naturally, none of them , or these dealers, can ever attain this level of excellence. Hence when I'd try to "call them out on this", the dealer would cite the " V nickel story" . And never bother to tell that I'd been of the opinion we were angling for high conductors.
At a certain point, he called me to listen to one he'd flagged. I told him that I would "pass it". Turned out to be a V-nickel. The dealer got a real kick out of that. And tells people the story, to this day, years later (no doubt to Larry now). I tried to tell him "I thought we were angling for high conductors?" To which he replied "you might miss a gold ring or an old nickel". Well gee, if we'd set up the standards and goals prior to the hunt, then we'd have been on the same page of "what we're listening for". But to no avail. He memorized the line that I "would pass it", and .... lo & behold, it was a V nickel I was later to find out that he had perhaps only 3 or so V nickels, in his entire detecting career , up till that time.
This story (that he was always quick to tell people ever since then) sort of put a bitter taste in my mouth. I'd run into beginners who this dealer (and now Larry it seems) was trying to tell them they could ascend to tell aluminum apart from gold. Naturally, none of them , or these dealers, can ever attain this level of excellence. Hence when I'd try to "call them out on this", the dealer would cite the " V nickel story" . And never bother to tell that I'd been of the opinion we were angling for high conductors.
Yes I have 1000s of V nickels, and yes I am at 15 gold coins. But that can simply be a factor of someone who has more time to detect, and hunts the right spots (better research to virgin sites, etc....). So I am not, and will not, cite that as some sort of "proof" in this debate. All I will cite is the individual statistics of JUST the hunts where both hunters were there comparing flagged signals. And EVEN THEN am giving AMPLE room for allowance, if the other person is out with a new machine for the first time, for instance. And AMPLE ROOM that perhaps a certain park is more known to me, vs the other hunter ("home turf" advantage, so-to-speak).
While talking to a local detector dealer my other buddy digs a 1914 d wheat penny........it happens to all of us. I was learning a new detector and looking at another detector for later on. As for a guy happy with his choice in metal detectors, I say great. I learned not to believe the hype a long time ago. Just get your coil over it and dig.
Sorry to hijack your post topic. Just that when I found the video you referred the readers too, I recognized his notion that a Tesoro, with certain adjustments and audio tricks, could help "tell aluminum apart from gold" . And then .... sure enough ... in the video he even tells who he got that notion from. Line per line exactly as I heard it years ago. And so now we have 2 dealers here in CA telling people this. Pity the poor newbie who sees the video, hears the claims, then promptly goes and knocks himself silly digging 1000 aluminum items in junky parks. All the while believing that .... one day .... he can ascend to this level to tell the items apart.
If anyone buys a machine from either of these 2 dealers, and hears this claim, simply do the following: Ask for a demonstration at a junky park. And see for yourself if they can find gold rings, while leaving any reasonable amount of aluminum in the ground. I'm sure you'll find the claims to go silent.
Oh, and BTW, I'm sure that people "find gold rings in junky parks". That's not the point. And I'm sure that there's certain recurring sounds of like-items that can be notched out (in which case you'll also be passing some gold). That's not the point. The point is to go BEYOND that to try to tell people that aluminum and alloyed gold sound different. They don't. The share similar conductivities. Hence for any gold ring that can be tested, there can be an aluminum item wadded up in just the correct way, to sound exactly the same. And for any aluminum junk item, there can be an alloyed gold ring made to read exactly the same way.
And if you ever get to a park where lawn mowers have tangled with cans (creating can slaw), and where foil balls abound, I'm sure the claims of these dealers will go silent. So in essence then, like the videos comparing a singular square tab with a singular ring, is all-he's done in that demonstration is basically "notching". Because square tabs are fairly uniform in size and shape (assuming the same size and brand of soda, etc...). Hence, yes.... they can be "learned". But that's NOTCHING. And is NOT to be confused with "telling aluminum apart from gold". And rest assured: There will be alloyed gold items that can sound EXACTLY like that square tab.
If anyone buys a machine from either of these 2 dealers, and hears this claim, simply do the following: Ask for a demonstration at a junky park. And see for yourself if they can find gold rings, while leaving any reasonable amount of aluminum in the ground. I'm sure you'll find the claims to go silent.
Oh, and BTW, I'm sure that people "find gold rings in junky parks". That's not the point. And I'm sure that there's certain recurring sounds of like-items that can be notched out (in which case you'll also be passing some gold). That's not the point. The point is to go BEYOND that to try to tell people that aluminum and alloyed gold sound different. They don't. The share similar conductivities. Hence for any gold ring that can be tested, there can be an aluminum item wadded up in just the correct way, to sound exactly the same. And for any aluminum junk item, there can be an alloyed gold ring made to read exactly the same way.
And if you ever get to a park where lawn mowers have tangled with cans (creating can slaw), and where foil balls abound, I'm sure the claims of these dealers will go silent. So in essence then, like the videos comparing a singular square tab with a singular ring, is all-he's done in that demonstration is basically "notching". Because square tabs are fairly uniform in size and shape (assuming the same size and brand of soda, etc...). Hence, yes.... they can be "learned". But that's NOTCHING. And is NOT to be confused with "telling aluminum apart from gold". And rest assured: There will be alloyed gold items that can sound EXACTLY like that square tab.
Jackpine Savage
Active member
I remember hitting an old baseball diamond and the first signal I dug in the foil range was a mens gold band. Dug 20 more targets that sounded exactly the same and they were all foil wads. so much for telling them apart.