lets fight, florida then the feds.

[seeker41]

ok, i tried to get something organized privately about 4 months ago but it hasn't worked out, i wish i was retired so i could put 100% of my time into this but im not!!!
is anyone interested in organizing all treasure hunters , bottle hunters, fossil hunters, indian artifact hunters, metal detectorists, shipwreck salvage ops, etc: for an all out effort to restore our treasure hunting freedoms????

wouldn't it be nice to detect,dive,locate and work wrecks in our rivers?

wouldn't it be nice to freely research, seek, recover and preserve our historical artifacts before they disappear forever???

wouldn't it be nice to not have to spend two or three years jumping through hoops and turning over all your research in order to salvage a wreck???
in probably 75% of all seeking and found item situations we should not have to ask mother may i !!!!! under no circumstances should we need a search permit!!!!!!!!!

we will be electing a new governor or in my personal hopes keeping the present governor nov 14th of this year, we should act now and and really make our presence known!!!!!

i hope everyone is very ready and that this is the beginning of something great rather than another ignored request! this is the time and hopefully the place to get this started!!!!!! lets act like free american citizens ready for a fight and not oppressed, defeated subjects!!!!!

chuck.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

seeker, it's already been done. It's called the FMDAC.

Our numbers/ranks are just too small to generate any large dollars and numbers needed. I mean, ... unlike the NRA (as an example) our hobby is just too niche and small to get lawyers and lobbyists like the NRA does.

And to be honest with you, you gotta be real careful about sounding alarms, creating fear, and "rushing out to fight" battles everytime you hear someone in authority give an md'r flack, or make some sort of rule, or suggest any sort of laws, etc... Well, at least as any sort of "pre-emptive" move. Sure, fight laws already existing, or "up for a vote", etc.... But no, not to run around and pre-empt things, clarify things, etc... Don't think you need to get "express allowance". Because you might just end up getting un-do attention and scrutiny on ourselves. To make oureselves "giant bullseyes" in need of law-maker's attentions, etc.... It's actually better when metal detecting is not addressed at all (no specific rule saying "no metal detectors"). Silence on the issue is best! And then just stay off their radar. Out of site is out of mind.

The only exception, as I say, is if there were truly something pending or an outright ban. Then, sure, you have nothing to loose by fighting it. A possible exception to even that though, is if neighboring cities, counties, states, and agencies take note of such fights, and then guess what? They too start to scrutinize, or follow suit, etc..... So in a way, I almost hope no one in authority thinks about me one bit.

 

[BootyHunter]

Problem is, no one cares until its too late. "Hoping" to fly under the radar and not have a rule or law at all is not going to work. We are not invisible, people see us detecting and they see the finds on sites like this, not everyone can "nighthawk" and never be seen. Once some busy body with some pull proposes a law requiring a permit or banning it, it's too late. They have their minds made up before its "proposed". All the hobbies that the op mentioned are being affected and with all those hobbies surely there would be enough to have a voice, maybe tagging along with the NRA is the way to go, show them first they take your "freedom to pursue happiness" next it's your guns, I bet that would get some attention. This country is going down the drain at an alarming rate. O.P. I'm willing to do my part, how do we unite these hobbies in this common goal??

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Bootyhunter, looking at your post carefully:

....Problem is, no one cares until its too late.....

It's not that other's "don't care", it's that perhaps they see a different method, of keeping sites open for as long as possible.

"Hoping" to fly under the radar and not have a rule or law at all is not going to work.

I don't understand what you're saying here. If there is "no rule or law", then isn't that a GOOD thing ? If the laws/rules are silent on the subject of "metal detectors" (not addressed either way), then that would seem to me to be a good thing. Because if something is not listed as prohibited, then presto, it's not prohibited.

they see the finds on sites like this,

You're falling prey to the psychology of "projection". It's when we think that others see the things we see, care about the things we care about, and so forth. For example: when was the last time you watched an info-mercial on kitchen blenders? Or when was the last time you watched Real Housewives of New York on TV (or any other hollywood gossip show). Or when was the last time you watched a Brazillan soccer tournament re-run ? etc..... Probably never, right? But why? Because, of course, you're not IN to those things. But if you WERE into kitchen blenders, hollywood gossip, brazillian soccer, etc... then you WOULD be watching them. And if you saw a social blunder, or mis-representation, or whatever, you'd think "oh no, everyone sees this, and will dislike this blender, or that girl's latest tummy tuck, or that bad play, etc..." Thus, trust me, very few people outside of this hobby would ever be surfing the internet and have any reason to be viewing geeky forums where md'rs boast of their latest horseshoe, merc, pulltab, etc...

.....not everyone can "nighthawk" and never be seen.

You do realize that the term "night-hawk" is usually used to refer to trespassing, and sneaking illegal sites. Right? So why do you use it in this context of this thread ? Did you think that that's what I meant when I said to avoid lookie-lous and go at lower traffic times ? No.

.Once some busy body with some pull proposes a law requiring a permit or banning it, it's too late.

Right. Which is why the LESS they think about us (thinking that said "permits" or "bans" should be considered) THE BETTER, right ? So why put yourselves on their radar as something that needs their "pressing attention" ?

.....maybe tagging along with the NRA is the way to go....

We do not have the #'s of adherants that a hobby/sport like guns has. There's TONS of gun-buffs out there, right? In every town, etc... But not so for md'ing. I mean, those that *really* use metal detectors and hunt often, are a very small geeky niche. There simply isn't the # of hobbyists to generate the type $$ that the NRA brings in, to hire lobbyists, etc...

 

[BootyHunter]

Well Tom in CA, I don't care about debating this enough to break each point down to respond to it, but in general: other than going at night, or "night hawking"(which also means to go at night in order to not be seen) , how are we supposed to not be seen metal detecting? And you say we don't ave the #'s and pointed out ppl the detect regularly are a "geeky" few, when I suggested as the op did that we join forces with all the other hobbies, and if you think folks aren't aware of detecting more and more these days you are kidding yourself. Just because I'm not interested in deer hunting or frisbee golf doesn't mean I'm not aware of these activities, and ours is one of the few hobbies where valuables can and are recovered regularly. That is the crux of the entire situation. Believe it or not, admit it or not, people do lurk these forums all the time, see that valuables are being recovered and have an issue with it. Why else would anyone care about trying to regulate this hobby? They don't try to control frisbee golf, hiking/biking horseback riding or many many other hobbies. And no rule about detecting leads to the following: joe citizen goes to a beach that he has researched and no law or rule exists about detecting, Ms. Busybody sees him detecting, doesn't think he should be allowed to do it, complains to whatever authority there is, either on site( lifeguard, park ranger) or dials 911 and a cop shows up. Now joe citizen is harassed and even though no law or rule exists, he's told he has to stop. Sure he could bow up and demand that because no rule exists he doesn't have to stop, but 99% of the time he is forced to stop due to the scene that is being caused and if he doesn't, he's threatened with not complying with the powers that be and being asked to leave. I know I have been in this exact situation before, and you can say all you want that you would not stop if there's nothing saying you can't detect, but when you're in that situation you will think different. So establishing that this hobby is no different than throwing a frisbee or playing volleyball on the beach and is allowed, is not a bad thing. It would be nice to go and not have to worry that its going to be questioned, myself, I would rather KNOW that it's not going to be an issue before I go than to have to constantly look over my shoulder and worry that someone is going to have an issue with it. That's not a very relaxed way to detect, do I want a permit system HELL NO, but I want it like for example, Myrtle Beach on the city website FAQ it says Is metal detecting allowed? YES then explains its allowed on the beach but not on other city property like parks. Faie enough, I can respect that, I can go out on the beach and if Ms. Busbody starts her crap I can Refer to the cities website, problem resolved. That's what I want, a clear cut ruling one way or another.

 

[mudpuppy]

Can anybody cite an instance where any local park/beach detecting ban has been overturned? If so, it would be beneficial to pattern how they did it...just trying to help...

We just had a great local beach banned this spring...something about "historical artifacts" or some other burerucratic bullcrappery...seems the ranger is really in enforcement mode since all the guys who have hunted it for years had no idea and have gotten the boot by him these past few weeks..so they kindly called me to give me a heads up..I personally have not been warned by any authority, and I hope he really gung ho enforces no detecting all Summer long!
.
I imagine the place will be chuck loaded with drops by this Fall!...and I imagine I will get in there and clean it out once I learn the rangers schedule, time it perfect due to weather, have the wife drop me off and pick me up at a predesignated time, etc. I'm sure even a ranger gets a day off every now and then...is it bad to be thinking this way? I dont give a tinkers cuss about artifacts, just gold, clad, and silver jewelry....now, doesnt that sound like a lot more fun than fighting city hall?
Mud

 

[BootyHunter]

Can anybody cite an instance where any local park/beach detecting ban has been overturned? If so, it would be beneficial to pattern how they did it...just trying to help...

We just had a great local beach banned this spring...something about "historical artifacts" or some other burerucratic bullcrappery...seems the ranger is really in enforcement mode since all the guys who have hunted it for years had no idea and have gotten the boot by him these past few weeks..so they kindly called me to give me a heads up..I personally have not been warned by any authority, and I hope he really gung ho enforces no detecting all Summer long!
.
I imagine the place will be chuck loaded with drops by this Fall!...and I imagine I will get in there and clean it out once I learn the rangers schedule, time it perfect due to weather, have the wife drop me off and pick me up at a predesignated time, etc. I'm sure even a ranger gets a day off every now and then...is it bad to be thinking this way? I dont give a tinkers cuss about artifacts, just gold, clad, and silver jewelry....now, doesnt that sound like a lot more fun than fighting city hall?
Mud

Be VERY VERY VERY careful! Research ARPA, that's a VERY serious charge and it does not matter what you are INTENTIONS are, if you are in a place that falls under this B.S. thay can and WILL rip you a new one!

 

[mudpuppy]

Yeah, BH. .I was trying to add a bit of levity to a serious subject...I doubt theres anything any of us can do as a group or individually to shut this crapola down or reverse some of these ordinances..and, we were all brought up to obey the law, so that creates a dichotomy most of us are unfamiliar with...too many of these laws take the fun out of life in a hurry, and as a taxpaying responsible adult, I would think a guy could catch a break every once in a while...who knows?

One year the rangers nearly went on strike for more pay...it was unfortunately averted at the last minute by some more tax dollars, and they all got their raise...but had they gone on strike, buddy, talk about game on!!
Mud

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... how are we supposed to not be seen metal detecting? .

You're right: It's not 100% possible to gaurantee "not being seen". But wouldn't you agree that the less people to see you, who may gripe in the first place, the better ? Why would it be anyone's goal to waltz around in heavy usage times of day at said beach or park, to have even brought about those potential gripes, to start with? For example: If you learned that a purist archie convention was slated to go on at the park in your town, then you tell me: Is that a "good" time to go, or .... just perhaps .... maybe a time that's not good to go detecting there at that park ?

yes it's not 100% possible to avoid all gripers. But wouldn't you agree that if someone's bound to have a problem with what you or I are doing (and it's not specifically prohibited), fine then: Let's not ruffle that persons feathers. You can certainly try to run around getting every last person on earth to love and adore your hobby, if you want. But I think you'd be in for a big surprise, to find out that this simply isn't going to be possible. Much better to face reality, and realize that not every body can be convinced to love & condone you. And that they're not going to roll our red carpets for you, and erect signs that say "metal detecting welcome here". Does that suck? SURE! But is it reality ? yes. Detecting has connotations that you

a) might be about to "take" something.
b) that you might find something (gas) old, and
c) that you might have to (gasp) dig.

If there are people in this world that any of those 3 things bother, and it's within my power to lessen the odds of them seeing and griping, then I will do it.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Believe it or not, admit it or not, people do lurk these forums all the time, see that valuables are being recovered and have an issue with it. Why else would anyone care about trying to regulate this hobby?

The reason that authorities try to regulate this hobby, is not because they cruise around the internet reading forums, and get mad because they see you or I found something. As I stated before, it's our own projection to think anyone else besides us reads these forums. Or even TV shows like "diggers", you really think that people just randomly stop on the channel, watch it, and think to themselves "gee let's make a law because of this show". No more so than you are inclined to stop on the Yoga channel TV show, or a soap opera, etc.... Unless a) you're into yoga, or b) your into soap operas, etc... But to the yoga person, who sees a social blunder or bad light cast on yoga, is immediately convinced that others saw that episode or show, and are now "out to hate yoga", etc....

So then you have a legitimate question then: If they're not tuning in to our shows, and reading our forums, to develop this notion to "make laws", then .... gee, WHY ELSE is anyone trying to regulate this then ? Here's why:

Because well-meaning people like yourself want to go out and make a big stink, and start pre-empting this , getting express allowances (rather than silence on the subject), etc... Or well-meaning people who go asking bored pencil pusher desk-bound bureaucrat's and archies: "can I metal detect at such & such beach?" or "can I metal detect at such & such parks?", etc.... Well guess what happens? You get a "no" to "address your pressing issue". So after the md'r gets that "no", he says to himself "durned those forums" or "durned those TV show Diggers", or "durned those archies". When they, themselves, created this problem themselves, by going and making themselves that giant bullseye, in the first place !

Thus, no, don't run around pre-empting things, trying to get permits, trying to get express allowances etc..... You will do nothing more than continue the history of "no one cared TILL you asked" routine.

Yes, fight laws that are already proposed, imminent, or in place (we have no choice). But no, don't run around pre-empting things, lest you get the very attention you DIDN'T want to have.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

[/quote] ..... Now joe citizen is harassed and even though no law or rule exists, he's told he has to stop. ...

I feel your pain booty-hunter. I too (and no doubt many others into this hobby, especially when it comes to "turf", right?) have gotten flack. And as you say, flack where no rule existed that said you can't detect. And sure, they find something ELSE they think applies to the activity. Like the dreaded "alter" or "deface" or "remove" or "harvest" or "cultural heritage", etc.... right? And you're right: you're not going to win that debate with them that you'll do no harm, not hurt the ground, etc.....

So you think the solution is to run around trying to get governing bodies, mayors, gardeners, cops, rangers, bureaucrats, etc... to give an express "yes" to us, right? Not just enough that no rule *specifically* said no metal detecting, but you think the solution is that there is a rule that specifically says "metal detecting is allowed", right?

Wouldn't we all love that ? I KNOW I WOULD! But is it going to happen ? No. You are simply not going to get it past every last archie and gardener upon whose desk such verbage would have to cross in the approval process. And you'd simply end up getting more places OFF limits. And besides, think of it Booty-hunter : Even when some place DOES have express allowances (in the form of "permits", for example), notice how they're always riddled with silly rules. Like: "on sandy beaches only" or "yes but you can't dig", or "digger shall not exceed 3" in length" or "no within 30 ft. of any tree" and so forth. Do you really want additional rules like that , coupled with a bunch more "no's" everywhere else ?

Please understand that I'm on your side if it were do-able. Who WOULDN'T want "express permission" and red carpets rolled out for us?

So your best tactic is to run into as few of those potential gripers as possible. Why swat hornet's nests ?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Arpa only applies to federal. Not city, county, state, etc.... So just curious what made you think that Mud-puppy was talking about a federal beach ?

 

[BootyHunter]

Whatever Tom, you always chime in on this subject and your answer is always the same " don't ask and don't draw attention and HOPE no one says anything". Well look around the country Tom, how's that tactic working out?? More and more places being closed to detecting and NO, it's not because people are asking for permission as you always say, beaches and other public places are being put off limits even with no one asking for permission. I don't think we NEED permission to metal detect anymore than a permit is NEEDED to fly a kite. But if we don't join together and get it clarified that it is an ALLOWED activity then it is going to be prohibited more and more places and once it is off limits it's a hell of a lot harder to get it back than it would have been to prevent the prohibition in the first place. So you really think only people interested in metal detecting watch diggers?? Wake up, so only people interested in singing watch The Voice? Only people interested in selling stuff at a pawn shop watch Pawn Stars? Only people interested in doing criminal investigations watch CSI?? I think not, wake up and smell the coffee. Metal detecting is no longer "our little secret" so trying to fly under the radar is not going to work. Why should we feel the need to tippy toe on egg shells to begin with? That's a lot of the problem, acting as if we are doing something wrong in the first place, and the other problem is complacency. This's issue directly effects every single person that swings a detector but there are like 4 of us interested enough to post in this thread. There's your problem right there. And the fact mud was talking about "rangers" was why I warned him of ARPA. Didn't know or care if it was federal property, better to warn him about it and if it was he could heed it, if not no harm no foul, any sneaking around detecting where it is off limits is bound to not turn out well for A. The person involved and/or B. The hobby as a whole.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

" ....your answer is always the same " don't ask and don't draw attention and HOPE no one says anything". Well look around the country Tom, how's that tactic working out?? More and more places being closed to detecting and NO, it's not because people are asking for permission as you always say, beaches and other public places are being put off limits even with no one asking for permission."

Something's wrong with this logic train here Booty-hunter. First off, how do you know that a place that became off-limits never had anyone going in and asking "can I?". Maybe YOU didn't, but .... others might have, eh ?

And aren't we talking about places that are open to detecting now, yet BECAME closed to detecting at a later point, right? So you think/say that unless we went and got that same park or school beforehand to give an express "metal detecting allowed here" rule (something on the books, written, saying something like that) got set up, that ........ presto they'll see md'rs, and figure "let's make a rule". But think about it Booty-hunter: If someone's mind-set was THAT anti-metal-detecting (the mere fact of seeing an md'r on the beach or park), then how in the h*ck do you think pre-empting it and going and asking that SAME person to "please give all us yahoos a green light to metal detect, by specific language saying we can". I mean, if he was inclined to "make a rule" simply because he saw an md'r, then how do you think that that same type person is going to make an express allowance? Seems the only thing you'd be doing is ACCELERATING the institution of the very rule you don't want, by making him think front-&-center about your "pressing issue".

" But if we don't join together and get it clarified that it is an ALLOWED activity then it is going to be prohibited more and more places"

This isn't making any sense either. It ALREADY is "allowed", if there were no rules saying you can't. An activity need-not have an express "allowance", for one to be able to do it.

 

[BootyHunter]

I know that it wasn't because someone asked for permission the same way that you know it was. Neither of us know, and why did you CHOOSE to IGNORE completely my example of Myrtle Beach SC?? They expressly give consent on their city website for beach detecting, so it is cut and dried, people can piss and moan if they want while your detecting there but there's absolutely no question it is allowed. My point, and read this very very closely, is simply to approach the places in question, explain that this hobby is already allowed and permitted and taking place on said property but due to the very nature of the hobby, and all the folks that want to question if it's allowed, it needs to be expressed that yes this is a welcome hobby at that given place. To prevent the confusing scene I described a few posts ago with someone calling or asking an "authority" questioning the activity.
Now I don't mean 1 guy should approach the powers that be in these locations and "ask permission" because yes that will be met with a resounding NO, I mean what the OP suggested was a good idea for all of the niche hobbies that he described to ban together to get a LOUD VOICE with some weight behind it that can protect these hobbies that folks enjoy but are always questioned about participating in. Using the Myrtle Beach model as an example of simply stating that yes you are welcome to do that here. Everyone knows MB is a popular tourist destination so if this hobby was so damaging or intrusive why would they allow it there? Bandwagon is a popular advertising scheme for a reason. No one ever questions if it's OK to throw a football on the beach, common sense says it is, but swinging a metal detector doesn't enjoy that same common sense, it's something that people for whatever reason have a problem with and even if no one ever asks if it's ok to do it, some tree hugging whiny type that can't mind their own business will see someone detecting and work to get it banned, and if those powers that be are only hearing a one sided argument with false accusations of course they will make the "easy" choice and draft up a law or rule to ban it.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... and why did you CHOOSE to IGNORE completely my example of Myrtle Beach SC?? They expressly give consent on their city website for beach detecting, so it is cut and dried, ....

I don't doubt that some places have express allowances for certain activities (metal detecting, in the case of Myrtle Beach). And I don't doubt that that is great! Who can argue with an express allowance, right? And you're right: It will deflect busy-bodies. But the devil is in the details. You got it right when you said:

..... Now I don't mean 1 guy should approach the powers that be in these locations and "ask permission" because yes that will be met with a resounding NO,.....

This tells me you too realize the very psychology that I'm alluding on. The "no one cared TILL you asked" routine. Aka.: the "safe answer" blah blah And even though you agree that this is a risk of asking "can I?", you say:

..... My point, and read this very very closely, is simply to approach the places in question, explain that this hobby is already allowed and permitted and taking place on said property but due to the very nature of the hobby, and all the folks that want to question if it's allowed, it needs to be expressed that yes this is a welcome hobby at that given place. To prevent the confusing scene I described a few posts ago with someone calling or asking an "authority" questioning the activity. ....... I mean what the OP suggested was a good idea for all of the niche hobbies that he described to ban together to get a LOUD VOICE with some weight behind it that can protect these hobbies that folks enjoy but are always questioned about participating in.....

The trouble is, I can see the SAME psychology happening there too. Whether it's a slow trickle of people coming in, or a single person seeking legal format for 100's of others "make a express allowance", etc.... it all still amounts to the same. Do you realize what it takes to get laws and such changed? Text added? Panels and committees need to "vote" on it, blah blah blah. All the desks that must pass through ? And sure as sh*t, one of the desks that your "pressing request" would have to pass through for wording change approval, is the state's archaeologist. And we all know what his vote's gonna be, right ?

 

[BootyHunter]

Well the simple fact is that the way things are going with the country in general this hobby will be banned to all public property by 50 years from now.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Well the simple fact is that the way things are going with the country in general this hobby will be banned to all public property by 50 years from now.

perhaps. But in the meantime, we're going to keep it from happening as long as possible. And resisting the urge to be the "squeeky wheel" is one way to keep their attention from doing those very things.

 

[johno]

I feel if we pay any taxes for any use at all of said property to rebuild or refurbish we should be able the use of said property .