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LiFePO4 Batteries

Birdseed

Member
I have been reading about the fairly new type LiFEPO4 batteries that have come on the market recently. These batteries are 3.2 V instead of the more usual 1.5 V.. They are available in AA format often with dummy cells included. If one was to put 4 of these cells into the Sovereign plus 4 dummy cells, you end up with a12.8V pack. So far I have not seen these cells in larger than 900mAh AA packages but they will surely come if not already available.
This may be the answer to using rechargables in the alkaline battery pack. I've put a link to a site to show what is available, though these particular ones are low capacity..see here They are so cheap one could carry a couple of sets to insure capacity for a days detecting.

Also have plans to use these to repack NiCd packs in some of my older ham radio handsets to give them a new lease of life, as there is nothing wrong with them other than redundant battery technology.

Anything to keep older stuff working, our world of built in obsolescence is obscene !!!

Interested in others views. Criterhunter you are the battery guru

I have also posted a version of this post in the Safari forum

Peter
 
Fire up the coffee pot, you're going to need it...:biggrin: But hey, don't want to mess with this stuff unless you know what you are doing or risk life, injury, or property or machine...And don't take my advice without finding some on your own to confirm or deny how you might think on various aspects of batteries or chargers...

Good for you in checking into alternative power sources. No reason in the world to use throw away AAs these days. Just a big waste of money and material. And the stock rechargeable pack is a boat anchor with rather low capacity that will sit and self drain being old non-low self discharge nimh technology, where now there are LSD (low self discharge) nimhs at cheap prices in much higher capacity.

Ok...Got some specific info on those LifePo4 cells, but here's the lead up with some info on them and considerations when picking a battery type for your Sovereign or Excalibur thrown in as well...

Ain't going to mention specific cheap potential source of LifePO4 or other cells or chargers...Since they aren't Findmall sponsors, even though they don't dabble in detector circles so I wouldn't think it would be a problem. Just to be sure, I won't provide links or names. But among RC car/plane sources there are a few with ultra dirt cheap prices. Most guys in RC get their lipos and other batteries and chargers along with motors and other parts from these sources as they are dirt stinking cheap. Often about 1/3rd to 1/4th the price on things than other sites. The very hobby of RC means you live and die by your batteries and chargers, especially for electric planes where not knowing these things might cost you a plane, so in RC circles people tend to be fanatical about their batteries/chargers, like me. :biggrin:

You can get computerized charges with screens and settings (not for the faint of heart and shouldn't be used unless you know what you are doing) for $20. I use one for $20 which requires a 12VDC power source like a car battery or one of their cheap invertors, but I run mine off a converted computer power supply I hacked that I garbage picked and yoked out of a computer. One of the reasons why many RC market targeted chargers run on 12VDC, is because often we open the hoods on our cars or trucks we drove to the field in, and charge our packs as we fly others right there in the field.

This charger I mostly use will do LifePo if I remember right (and I bet LifePo4 types will charge on that and it's just a newer battery chemistry, but read up on it and don't take my word for it). I think it also does A123 and a number of other battery types, besides the Lipos and nimhs and Nicads I use mine for. I haven't paid much attention to what various types mine will do since I stick with the cell types I like, but one mode is for lipos, another for sure lithium ion based cells, another for A123, another mode on it for lead based batteries, two other modes for nimhs or nicads, and a final one for I think another for LifePo.

If you don't care to research and learn how to set up a computer based charger, then for sure buy a simple plug-n-play meant for that battery type and it's capacity size (IE: so it doesn't charge it too fast based on cell size).

Far as LifePo goes, been a while since I read up on those and haven't on these LifePo4 ones yet. I'm completely happy at running a 3 cell series lipo in my GT for extra weight savings over hard shelled batteries and less weight due to other battery factors to. I run a 750ma lipo pack (about $7 from them) in my GT. I could have stuck a much bigger lipo in the alkaline holder but I was shooting for max weight savings on my light weight build. I get at least two very long hunts out of them, and because lipos hold their voltage very high during discharge I seem to get at least as long if not longer run times than the stock 1000ma nimh pack. Besides, my charger displays the capacity put back into the pack and when near dead (just above 9V) when I charge it I get around 1000ma if memory serves.

The GT sounds hit's low battery alarm at around 9.8V or so, so no worries with over draining the lipo past the limit of 3V per cell (9V total for a 3 cell series pack) that could damage it. The other perk to lipos, which I suspect those LifePo4 cells have, is they have about zero self discharge on the shelf, so months later in storage they are ready to rock and roll. There are now low self discharge nimhs too that will do almost as good of job of holding their voltage while in storage.

Now, getting more specifics of your question....A lipo 3 cell series pack at full charge is 12.6V (4.2V per cell)....So you are only pushing an extra .2 (point two) volts with using 4 dummy cells, so I *suspect* you'll be fine. Or, if you are worried about it, often computerized charges can be set to cut off the charge at a set voltage level you pick. Set it for say 12 or 12.5V if you get a charger like that and then you're good.

But either way, voltage regulators in things like detectors that are designed to run off batteries often have a rather wide tolerance of input source voltage range. Say if the regulator outputs a fixed 8V to the circuit board (I would suspect it's either than or 9V...probably 9V...on the GT), the input voltage to the regulator has to be higher than the static output voltage to function, but often they'll accept a rather high input voltage. *perhaps* as high as say 14 or 16 volts maybe, depending on the regulator specs.

I have no idea what the highest input tolerance the regulator in the Sovereign is designed for, so for sure don't take my word on that. All your own risk. But, if I were a betting man, since I've ran 12.6V lipos in my GT for several years now without issue, I doubt anything .2V is going to hurt anything *maybe*. I never really checked, but I suspect off the shelf non-rechargeable AAs might come brand new with a bit higher voltage than 1.5V per cell.

The very reason for regulators is to keep the output voltage static and unchanged for the stability of the device as the battery drains, and also I would suspect many regulators that are meant for some kind of battery input source voltage have a pretty wide tolerance of voltage limits. But the only way to know for sure is to take the GT apart and read the part # on the regulator and look it up on the net to see the voltage window specs on it.

I've dabbled with linear regulators for various projects. One example would be the video system on some of my RC planes. Rather than run the camera or it's live video feed to the ground off it's own power source, I used a regulator with a 3V output to power the camera's required voltage. The plane's power source is a 12.6V lipo. The regulator's upper input voltage limit is rated at 9V. Obviously I'm pushing things here...:biggrin: But I was given a handfull of these 3V regulators for free, so I figured what's the harm in trying? Specs are meant to be "bent" a little anyway. :biggrin:

Anyway, turns out the regulator, even with a heat sink that was added to it to bleed of the excessive source voltage, still gets rather hot. On the ground it'll shut down on thermal overload in about 4 or 5 minutes if I dink around, but once I get it in the air with the plane the wind blowing by the heat sink, which I've mounted to the side of the plane for air flow, keeps it cool enough to avoid thermal shutdown. When it does shut down, once cooled off it'll work again, but thermal overloads are meant to be a safety and not to be relied on, so often they have a very limited life span of trips. Point being, *IF* your lucky and you over load the regulator being it's ability to bleed off heat, it might have a thermal overload and once cool work again. Big risk though.

Not even sure if these detectors have linear regulators. They might be switching types, which don't bleed off excessive voltage as heat, but rather they pulse the output to keep the output voltage static. Only reason I doubt such types would be used in a detector is the pulsing nature makes them generate a ton of on board circuit noise. You can get around that with the proper added components to quiet them down, but even then I would have to think it would still do some serious damage to the stability (or ability to raise the sensitivity, meaning gain, of the received signal) and cost you a good bit of performance.

Here, dug this up on LifePO4 cells...

"Most LiFePO4 cells
operate within a normal or 'nominal' voltage of 3.0 to 3.3 volts, have a maximum operating voltage of around 4.1 to 4.2 volts and a minimum operating voltage of 2.1 to 2.5 volts. Typically a LiFePO4 cell is fully charged at 3.65 - 3.7 volts. In order to get the proper voltage to charge your LiFePO4 battery pack you would multiply 3.65 x the number cells in series. So a 12V nominal pack (3.0V x 4 cells) would have a charging voltage of 14.6V."

For sure I'd wont a charger with the ability to set the max charge voltage per cell. And also, if I'm reading this right...at the minimum of say 9.8 volts (roughly) for the low battery alarm on the Sovereign/Excalibur, then that's 2.45V per cell they'll be drained to (meaning 4 cells with 4 dummies) in the machine when it hits LVC (low voltage cut off of the regulator). Since they are stating minimum operating range of 2.1 to 2.5V per cell, I would suspect you'd have no issues with over draining them and hurting their life span. Seems spot on as a match with the low battery alarm for the GT.

Hope this helps. Good luck, and also keep us informed on the results if you should decide to go with these cells. While shopping around, I'd also look into other new lithium based cell types. Various types have various perks. I just use lipos in my RC planes, so I figure what the heck, I'll use them in my GT light weight shaft build to drop a few more ounces. My alkaline holder with the 750ma 3 cell sitting inside, which just plugs into a small plug I soldered into the holder, so I can still uses 8AAs if I ever want to for some insane reason by just moving the tiny plug out of the way. The alkaline holder with the lipo in it weighs exactly half the weight of the stock rechargeable pack that came with my GT. And that thing is heavy, so there is a big weight savings there.

[size=x-large]Important Reminder: Charging or using any battery type is a risk.[/size] But just like handling gasoline to pump into your car or fill a law mower, the risk can be greatly limited by proper respect and knowledge. Only charge a battery in a fire proof location such as in the middle of a cement floor far away from things that could catch on fire incase it ignites or explodes. Some people clay flower pots over their batteries while charging. The drain hole on the bottom (and now top with it flipped upside down) of the flower pot will allow air to escape without blowing the pot off in the event of something bad.

Make sure you read up and know how to use a charger if it's not a simple plug-n-play design meant to work with those particular cells at that particular capacity (which means proper charge rate for proper cell size is not exceeded).

Lipos back in the day several years back when they first became popular, lacked a balance plug on them and so did the chargers, which meant one cell would overcharge the limit of 4.2V per cell. The result was often a fire. These days all lipos and lipo chargers have balance ports, so each cell is watched in parallel to the battery circuit (pack) and can be terminated from the charge when it peaks 4.2V. As far as over draining a lipo, I have done so by accident (planes stuck in a tree or such).

The only real risk that I know of is destroying the chemistry, but not a fire risk I have never heard anyway. In fact, the last time I read up on the proper way to dispose of them you were to drain them dead with a car tail light bulb or something and then cut the two battery leads (one at a time so as not to short them!) and then throw it into a bucket of salt water for several days to insure it's drained completely before disposal.

But again, don't take my word for it. I don't claim to be right so confirm any advice I give on your own. There are very differing opinions on the care of rechargeables out there. I just go by what I've read, been told, and have learned for myself from years of personal use. Any death, destruction, fire, ruining your detector, or ripping a hole in the universe and changing life as we know it is all on you. :biggrin:

Battery Care For Long Life- Don't charge higher than rated to handle, and even slower insures long life better. Store batteries in a fire proof box. I prefer a metal box with the inside painted with non-metalic paint to avoid a short. The lid should be vented a bit with small drill holes to let any air escape should a battery suddenly vent rapidly fast, which might otherwise blow off the lid. I store my batteries in individual compartments via drywall (non-flamable) that I cut up to make chambers in the box. This way should one go nuclear, it might not take the others with it.

The box is then stored in the refrigerator along with any batteries inside it I don't plan to use for months. This is to help retain their capacity over time (not the current charge, but rather the amount of charge the battery can hold over time with use). My charger will put my lipos to a "sleep charge" that is also meant for long term storage. This voltage level has been determined to best best for retaining capacity over a long storage for a longer lifespan of use. Not sure if those LifePo4 cells have a desired sleep charge so look that up for yourself if you intend to store for long periods of time.

Yea, I may sound overly cautious, but just like you don't smoke or burn "love candles" around you when handling gasoline, some simple steps of common sense that have made handling gasoline for a car or yard equipment makes it not "safe", but rather not all that much "risk", if you know what I mean. Same deal with rechargeables.

So OK then, if that novel of a post don't help some, then better buy a book on the subject. :biggrin: Good luck...
 
Pete,your information is appreciated.I'm old school with batteries,they are a lot cheaper than a fried board.At this point I use 10 AAA rechargeable batteries inside my stock alkaline pack,inexpensive and have worked well. HH Ron
 
Critterhunter and Ron

Thanks for your great input.

I have had my Sov GT for 6 years now, I am still using the original NiMH pack and have a couple of alkaline packs as spares. The original NiMH pack is still giving excellent service. I always try to drain it well down before recharging. I have mostly used the Minelab supplied wall wart. Minelab have actually put their own name on the charger here in Australia and although an 18 hour charger it seems to operate sympathetically with my battery pack at least. So far I have not had to use the alkaline packs as the NiMH pack has never let me down.

Critterhunter ------------

Getting to the LIFePO4 chemistry. These are said to be much, much safer than the LiPo chemistry (they LiPo sound a bit scary in the wrong hands). I did not realise the terminal full charge voltage was so high, will need to look into that a little more. I am aware of voltage regulator limitations and the need for adequate heat sinking. It would not take much to install a voltage regulator inside one of the dummy cells and therefore ensuring that voltages never rise to dangerous levels at the input to the Sov GT, also as the regulator would be only be operating at a volt or less above its input heating should not be a problem. All food for thought. It is great to knock ideas about with someone else to get the brain clunking over.

I have had extensive experience with lead acid and NiCd chemistry through my occupation in the power industry, retired for a bit over five years now.
But that experience was all associated with bigger batteries. 200 Ampere hours at 133Volts average, with some banks paralleled up to give in excess of 500 Ampere hour capacity. These large NiCd battery banks were housed in their own dedicated rooms and gave almost flawless service, some were over twenty years old and on carrying out discharge tests were still above original designated capacity. But typical of government and big industry, because these batteries required fortnightly or monthly servicing and yearly boost charging, on paper it was cheaper to toss them out and replace them with maintenance free lead acid, thus saving the man hours required for servicing. These batteries were in beautiful condition and the cost of environmentally acceptable disposal cost more than the original purchase price. Also the were sent away to be destroyed. Any of these banks would have given years of service to people living off the grid, or they could have been given as aid to less fortunate countries than ours. Sorry I'm getting on the bandwagon, I just hate waste

The above off my chest, back to the discussion at hand.

I have a smart charger (I think it may be the same as one you spoke about a couple of years ago ( AccXXXXXXcll 6) I have not had a need to use it yet but it is on the bench beside me. It will handle LiPo, LiFe, NiMH, NiCd and lead acid. I have previously downloaded the spec sheets and operating manuals so it should be easy enough to program charging characteristics for LiFePO4 if I decide to go that way. As I said I have quite a few old Ham Radio hand held sets these sets operate from a wide range if input Voltages, typically 7.2 to 16Volts so the LiFePO4 chemistry is ideally suited to these units and will give them a new lease of life. Will probably do them up and use them as incentives for youngsters to get licenced. A lot of teenagers and others have the intelligence to pass the entry level licence test but do not have the cash to buy a radio to talk on, so end up getting into mischief on the CB bands.

I love my Sovereign, and though they are still on the market here, I guess the writing is on the wall regarding their demise. I would like to look at alternatives to extend the life of mine as far as possible.

I promise not to do anything rash, I always think twice before acting. Comes from 30 plus years working in 110KV and 220KV substations and switch-yards.

Keep up the good work

Peter
 
Pete, then you are well on your way with a background like that. I read over your post with interest, but very tired at the moment so I'll just hit on a few things and then go for now...

Real quick off hand, a bit confused about your idea to use a regulator in series with one of the dummy cells. It would be far more easy to just buy a charger that allows you to set the target voltage for the cells to an acceptable level of risk for the GT. Or no risk I should say. Not sure if "our" charger has that particular ability as I set it up a while ago with saved programs for my particular cell types I charge. Would have to roam through the settings to refresh my memory on that.

I just caught a blurb somewhere that off the shelf "throw out" AAs in an 8 series pack can have a source voltage when new of around 12.5V. If true, like I suspected, then that alone would buffer things, since then it means the regulator in the detector is designed to handle more than straight 12V. I fully expected that to be so, since even nimh rechargeables rated at 1.2V per cell will charge higher than that when using quality cells in good health. A lot of these "nomimal" numbers of cells are more along the lines of "most average" or minimum design specs. Point is that most regulators I played with had a rather high input limit for the source voltage. But again, without knowing the actual specs of any regulator in a Sovereign/Excalibur, just where that upper limit lies is the risk factor, as little as it may be in potential.

I can say this, that in one friend's Etrac he used those Energizer lithium AAs that are not rechargeable. They are pricey, but worth the extra run time and less weight in place of regular AAs. Anyway, point is...When he turned on his Etrac is said voltage overload error and shut down. The regulator in that machine will tell you if it's exceeding specs and shut off to prevent damage. Those cells I believe are rated at 1.7V in specs, but perhaps a good bit higher than that (more than probably) when new. To take the edge off them, he now runs them a few minutes in a flash light or some other device to take that initial surface voltage spike off of them, and then his Etrac no longer complains.

Now, could be the regulator used in those machines has a much lower upper voltage range limit. On the other hand, could be the Sovereign uses one with the same upper limit. Too tired to do the math in my head right now for that total voltage, so I'll leave it at that for now and go to bed. More tomorrow if other obligations don't keep me away.

You are onto something here that should pan out just fine, provided you use a charger that limits the target voltage when charging, or you could perhaps hook the pack up to a car tail light buld with a volt meter and let it drain to the desired voltage before putting it in the GT. Risky though, as the voltage will jump back up some when the load (bulb) is removed. You'd have to overshoot your target voltage below it a bit, and then let the pack sit for say 10 minutes and then check it with a volt meter again to make sure it's still sitting low enough. The amp draw of the Sovereign off hand I think is around 50 to 70ma if I rmember right (real sleepy here), so it's not going to do much to sag any surface voltage off to get the voltage down again to where it should be. Far easier to just use a charger with ability to set target voltage and that will do LifePo4 cells.

By the way, that same charger we both have...Yes, it has those features of cell types, but I also think it does LifePo cells too. Even if it doesn't, there is a setting for the individual cell voltage of lithium cell type. You can fudge things with *some* types of cells by selecting the right matching or *very* near matching cell type, if it didn't have a per say LifePo setting. But again, *very* risky if you don't know what you are messing with to be sure. The differences in charge logerythems alone for certain cell chemsitry might make that a no go. Bet you could find out if you google just what other types of lithium charge modes are compatible. Guys always figuring that kind of stuff out for something to do.

And, even if there is a LifePo mode, you'd have to read up on LifePo4 to make sure the charge parameters and methods are the same for both. I suspect they are, and that LifePo4 is just an enhanced chemistry that is more tolerant of abuse, but don't take my word on that.

OK, off to bed for me....Good luck....
 
Pete, with your background some or much of what I've said or about to say is not meant for you necessarily but for others who may be trying to explore possibilites...

The specs on LifePo4 and others can be confusing.
The higher voltage they are talking about could also be taken as the output voltage needed to charge the cell to the "nominal" voltage. All depends on what the charger thinks is proper voltage peak. Or, as said, if you use one that can set the target voltage (maybe ours has that function? been a while since I played with settings on it) then you're good. Or, if ours doesn't offer that function, I know there is a way to do it in a sense, by setting the per cell voltage based on lithium type.

Even if ours doesn't do Lifepo, or even if it does Lifepo but not this new Lifepo4, if you pick a cell voltage type that is close (under shoot it in that case for per cell voltage), you *might* be able to do it that way. Would have to read into it to be sure the various charging styles of lithium modes match what the LifePo4 wants though. Different types have different ways to monitor and tell a pack is peaked. That would require surfing various RC forums on the web for threads on the topic, which I'm sure are raging right now on such stuff. For instance, I think A123 can be charged via certain other battery type modes if I remember right.

But regardless of all this, far better to just use a charger meant for Lifepo4 (or if that's Lifepo compatible too also and you can use that mode), and one that can set the target voltage. No regulator risk then. No need for a second regulator in a dummy cell to tame down the voltage. No need to drain the pack to a comfortable level for use. Just set the voltage peak target. Charge. Done!

On lipo safety. As said, no battery is really "safe", but lipos got a bad rap due to early ones without balance ports and one or two cells would over charge. Since various other cells don't have balance ports, in a way you could say lipos are much safer to charge than other types. I've seen nimh packs go nuclear due to one or two cells at a higher rate of charge (or in this case overcharge) while the others tried to catch up when the pack was being charged at real fast rate.

I've charged, used, crashed, dented, drained too far (and recovered, by the way...trick to that) lipos for years, and have yet to have one go nuclear on me. So long as they are not punctured, shorted, over chargerd, or too many amps are asked from them during discharge than they can handle, they are just as safe as anything else. And, any of those things could cause other battery types to go nuclear too. Truth is for one that any lithium based pack, far as I know, is at danger to fire with a puncture, because it's the lithium that ignites with moisture in the air. Water is very bad for lithium reaction, but I've even got a lipo wet with no issues, because the pack is sealed. If it has a breach then you would have long since known about that before it was dropped by accident in water. Moisture in the air can ignite it.

Heck, one time I was re-soldering the balance wired on a lipo pack, and by accident dropped a huge blob of solder right on the wire traces on the little circuit board some have at one end of the pack. It shorted completely out between two cells with that huge blob of solder. I picked it up and ran out of the house and threw it into the backyard like a hand gernade. :biggrin: Never went nuclear, because over time as the dead short got super hot, it melted the trace lines between the two cells. Pack worked fine for years after that once I fixed things. Still a big risk to short them, and also to puncture or to overcharge, which is hard to do provided you use a charger meant for lipos which is set to the proper cell count. They have very good safeties these days.

God man on draining your nimh stock pack down when you can. People seem to think that nicads only suffered memory problems if you didn't. Well, that's true, but for one modern nicads from I've been told don't seem to suffer these memory problems anymore, or at least certain quality ones don't seem to. But, nimhs...Yea, maybe not per say a memory problem, but they still benefit greatly from the occassional complete drain down and re-charge. Doing this say 3 to 5 times in a row to cycle them about 1 or 2 times a year will greatly increase their capacity by excercising their muscles.

Using a charger that displays the capacity put back in is a great way to watch the increase in performance. Just to measure it though and excercise them properly I always drain completely dead. My charger will cycle packs but due to the limits of it's wattage won't do it very fast, so I prefer a car tail light bulb. Once the light goes out (roughly 10 to 30 minutes or so), I'll let the pack sit for about 10 to 20 minutes more to insure all cells are at equal discharge. This also helps to balance the cells, since nimhs or nicads don't have parallel charging plugs like lipos do.

I hear you about nicads or nimhs having long lifes. Heck, I've even recovered old cordless drill packs for people that have sat dead in their garage for years and years. Their stock charger that came with the drill wouldn't recognize the pack to charge it. Some people will shock them by using a much higher voltage for an instant.

I have just as much luck by blast charging them via a much higher amp rate. My chargers will force it to wake up by just doing the normal charge routine on it even. If they still won't take a charge or hold very little capacity, I'll shock blast them at say 3 to 5 times the typical charge rate, but that can be very risky as the amp rate gets higher, so I'm sure to feel the pack for excessive heat, or with real high amp rates I'll just blast it 5 minutes or so and then go back to a normal charge rate.

This also helps to break down crystals formed in the pack over time to recover lost capacity. If I do that, then I go back to the regular wake up and excercise routine- I keep draining and charging the pack until I no longer see gains in capacity put back in. If the next 2 or 3 cycles don't show any gains after that, then I know it's reached it's max capacity. Even packs in normal use benefit from this a few times a year, until you stop seeing gains.

Some of these "chargers", such as the GT wall transformer or on cordless drills, are needlessly slow for battery health. It's more about being cheap than it is being good for the battery. Typical for any nimh or nicad to handle up to 1C of charge rate (meaning amp rate equal to size of pack 1000ma pack= 1 amp), and some can even handle much higher amp rates so long as they aren't getting hot. Just to be cautious though, with most nimhs/nicads, I'll shoot for about 1/3rd to 1/2 the amp rate of capacity. For the stock pack, that means around 300ma to 500ma or so. In a hurry around 750 to 1000ma, which should take around an hour to charge for a completely dead pack.

Some cells state high charge rate abilities. Very fast ones, at say 4 amps or so for a 1000ma pack. The truth is that often if you look at the specs, the cycle life is much lower than typical "slow" charge cells, which tells me those being sold as fast rate are probably nothing special in some cases. Just regular sells sold with a fast charger, but there are some cells truly built for extremely high charge rates. Many RC car guys use nicads or nimhs meant for this. Some will stick packs on a ice pack while charging to keep them cool. Heat destroys rechargeable batteries.

Much of these cordless drill or detector "chargers" that come with them are just simple wall transformers as a way to save money not needing a charge termination circuit since the trickle charge lessons the risk from overcharging. Lacking a way to tell when the pack is charged, by using a slow trickle charge transformer no real risk to fire or damage by them being continued to charge after they have peaked.

Nicads don't mind this trickle after the charge is done. Nimhs from what I always heard don't care for that and will shorten their life over time. For that reason, always turn off the trickle mode on a charger for a nimh after it's fully charged with the normal/faster charge rate. Some chargers allow you to set this on or off. I've seen universal plug-n-charge chargers that don't allow you to, and will trickle nimhs or nicads after they peak. Don't care for that at all myself. A trickle is needless anyway unless you plan to let it sit for weeks on end, and even then far better for health of the pack to just re-peak it when you use it again, rather than let it sit their on trickle all that time to avoid self discharge.

Summary for LifePo4: I'd check into the settings for our charge, see if you can set the target voltage or at least fudge that with lithium cell type setting if one is compatible with the method to charge LifePo4. Research that. Or just buy a cheap LifePo4 compatible charger that allows you to adjust target voltage to say 12 to 12.5V just to be safe regulator wise. I'm betting even if you have to buy another charger, that you can put together a Lifepo4/charger setup for the range of about $30 to $40. I'd shoot for highest cell capacity, but as said even my 750ma lipo holds more than the label says, and being that lithium based cells hold their voltage very high during discharge, a smaller capacity pack than stock will probably still out run it in run time a good bit.

Some of these simple chargers that don't allow you to set target voltage might even have a static voltage target for LifePo4 well below the specs of max voltage ability. You'd have to look at the specs and see. If it's within say 12.6V or lower for total 4 cell/4 dummy series voltage, you should be good to go. Lacking a charger to keep the peak voltage down to safe levels, you could throw the charged pack on a load light a car tail light bulb and monitor it with a volt meter for a few minutes until it dips to acceptable levels. Be careful of bounce back once the load is removed though. Might have to drain a bit lower than your target to compensate for any bounce back.

The regulator in one of the dummy cells route- Yes, good idea too...But seems I'd opt for that as a last approach if it were me. One reason being the possibilites of any EMI or circuit board noise that might be generated and find it's way into the Sovereign to where stability might suffer, resulting in lower sensitivity levels being allowed. For my RC plane deal, I used a few noise cancelling components with the regulator to insure any noise generated didn't make it's way to the plane's electronics, and say maybe cause RX issues or even on screen static for my video feed. I also needed to do that for the reverse reason- so that the plane's ESC or the motor didn't create EMI that might find it's way back in the circuit to my camera and cause video static for that reason too.

With a battery as the source voltage in my plane's case, and with yours in the case of using a regulator with your battery as source voltage, batteries do tend to damper or buffer any circuit noise. They act much like a capacitor in snuffing stuff like that out in certain respects. Electronics can get funny or even lock up with circuit noise.

One dirty little trick as an example- I needed a 12V source one day and didn't want to pop the hood on my car. The amps I needed was well beyond my hacked computer power supply's ability. So I figured- I'll use a car battery charger. Plenty of 12VDC voltage ability there with endless current delivering ability in a respect. Only problem is using this as my source voltage is a very noisy ordeal which would cause issues with what I was powering. So, I had two little 6V lead acid emergency Exit sign rechargeables laying around. I connected those in series to each other to create a 12VDC battery, and then used that as my buffer or choke between the car battery charger and the project I was powering it with.

IE: Battery charger hooked to the now 12VDC battery in normal "charging" fashion, and then my device hooked to the battery in normal "powering" fashion to run it. Handly little way in a pinch to generate an endless 12VDC power source with some high amp delivering abilities, depending on what you set the charger to charge at. The battery did an excellent job of cleaning up the noise in the voltage. Not something you'd want to run for a long time like that, as the battery will eventually get overcharged, or the charger will know it's peaked and shut off, but it works for testing things out fast.

Did I mention possible perks for LifePo4? Probably almost zero storage drain. Light. Many cycles in life. Fast charge times without stressing them. Ain't looked into the specifics of these for LifePo4 but I bet on all accounts they are true due to being lithium based.

Always love to see people hack, modify, or improve a device via modifications or exploration of ideas. Please keep us informed on your project and how it pans out. Good luck...
 
Critterhunter

Thanks for your extensive reply, Have a bit on today but to clarify "Regulator in dummy cell"

May not be quite as simple as I first thought, but I hunted up my alkaline pack and dismantled the two halves and there is a small pocket that will physically house the regulator components, and even allow for some heat sinking

I'm guessing the regulator would need to shunt 14.5V down to 12V worst case, that is with 4 brand new LiFePO4s straight off the charger.

Not a proposition for a novice, but done correctly should protect against the unit seeing more than 12 volts at the battery pack terminals. ALL AT ONES OWN RISK OF COURSE

Have put up a couple of photos to make things clearer

Components shown are correct size but incorrect values, just what I had on hand to let you visualise the concept. The small circuit diagram is for a standard 3 terminal regulator. and would use a 7812 version chip for 12 V

Not sure this is the correct forum for this topic, hope nobody minds

Peter
 
No time at the moment to read/reply, but I'm printing this out for reading later. Have to leave now. Also, anybody who's sent me the emails of the last day or so, got no time to read/reply either right now, but I'll get back to ya. Thanks.
 
Got a few minutes to respond on thoughts here- First, yes...that little empty chamber you can see by popping off the lid is the "charging circuit" that is used for the rechargeable pack. Still not sure if it's an actual current cutoff or rather just a reverse polarity circuit. I'd guess it's a charging circuit, since I've heard people say the light either dims or goes out at full charge. When I have charged the stock pack, I'ved use an aftermarket charger via the main battery leads that contact the GT, so I never looked into what that little circuit does. I just know that I can't charge via that tiny plug with aftermarket charges, due to the stock wall "charger" just being a transformer. Never really looked at that tiny circuit in the rechargable pack to see just what it does though.

But in the Alkaline holder- yea, it's obviously an empy little chamber. For my 3 cell lipo, removing the lid, I slit the insulation on the red and black wires behind that chamber where a wire channel is. Didn't cut them, just spliced off insulation, then soldered a plug to them for my lipo. Space the slits far enough apart, since that wire don't have much room to move, and you won't have to worry about heat shrink to isolate them. Use a tiny screwdriver to lift them out of the channel, Just enough length to do that without having to cut them.

Now, here's some options- Worst first- Wiring a regulator in series with those wires means you can no longer use 8AAs in a pinch, because then the 12V to 12.5V roughly of regular 8AAs won't be enough to fire the regulator you are talking about (a 12V output one), because typical that regulators I think need roughly 1V about static output of input source voltage to work. But with this method you'd use 4 LifePo4 cells and 4 dummies in regular 8AA slots.

What I did with my 3 cell, is a wired a tiny JST plug to the two wires in the channel behind the empty chamber in parallel to them, so I could either plug in a 3 cell lipo, or stick the tiny plug in the empty chamber in a pinch and run 8AAs. Melt a wire channel from that empty chamber and the wire channels to the 8AA area. Using 8AAs? Sticky tiny plug in the empty chamber.

So your options from here- Either a regulator in parallel to those two wires (and with noise cancel compenents I'd strongly suggest), and then a tiny plug out of there to the main 8AA chamber to plug, and then you'd use a low provile *FOUR* AA holder to sit your LifePo4 cells in, or....don't wire the regulator and noise components (capacitors) behind the plug, but rather just wire them to the 4 AA holder. The advantage of this is that now that tiny plug is straight to the power to the GT, and so you could down the road use a 3 cell lipo like I do or whatever. I like this option the best- just wire in a tiny plug, and then the 4AA holder has a regulator/capacitors, or you could plug 3 cell lipo in without regulator, or you could run 8AAs in regular holder...which you can still do with regulator/capacitors wired behind the plug in little chamber, but that excluded an alternative source such as 3 cell lipo.

Moving on, by the looks of it you are playing with a 12V output regulator? If so, consider...That seems rather high of a static output for the drain variance of the LifePo4 cells. The LVC of the GT regulator is around 9.8 to 10V (when low battery alarm sounds). You seem like you are shooting for the upper end of a fresh 4 LifePo4 cells. Might shorten run time a bunch. I would try to find a voltage regulator of around 10.5 to 11V static output, which will put you at around 12V probably of minimum source voltage? If so, that will run things longer. In other words, shoot for the lowest static output, because input source is at least (I think?) about a volt higher. If you bias the minimum input too high (with say a 12V static output), you are cutting down run time. Try for 10.5V to 11V...Lowest output static from regulator you can find above say 10V. My readings of the GT at LVC are 9.8V, so I'm assuming it's a static 10V static output due to tolerances variables, so that means a minimum of probably 11V input maybe? Maybe it's only a required half volt above output? Don't remember off hand but I thought every linear regulator I ever played with had a 1V differential between minimum input and static output?

So your options- wire a regulator in series in little chamber, which means 4 dummies, 4 LifePo4 cells in regular 8AA holders, and never be able to run 8AA regulars in holder in a pinch, or the better way- regulator in parallel to two wires behind chamber, and that regulator either before or after a tiny plug to hook up to a 4AA low profile holder to thrown in there without the need of dummy cells. As said, I'd opt for the regulator/capacitors on the 4AA holder, and not behind the plug, so you could run a 12V source (such as a 12.6V 3 cell series lipo) at that plug, by taking the regulator out of the equation since it's staying with the 4AA holder meant for LifePo4 cells. Either of these two ways (regulator before or after the plug), because the regulator is in parallel to the two main battery wires, you can still run 8AAs in the holder and bypass the regulator.

Yea, probably could have condensed this, but I'm in a rush so it is what it is....I still say I'd ditch any regulator, regardless of how you go, and just get a charger that can set the target voltage. With that, even with a tiny plug, or using 4 dummy AAs, there will be no need for a regulator. As said though, if you do go regulator route....Shoot for minimum static output above say 10V, because that will lower your minimum input to the regulator, and so give longer run times.

Hope this makes sense....Wish I had more time to sort my thoughts/condense them/etc, but it is what it is...

Please keep us informed. You are doing a service to people blazing new trails. Nimh or nicad Sovereign stock packs should last for years with proper care, but we all know people don't often do that. Without proper excercise capaticies can very restrictive and soon the stock pack will be considered "junk", although with a proper wake up/excercise call I bet most would recover long run times. Either way, the stock rechargeable is a boat anchor using 10 sub-A heavy cells. Really don't care for those. That's wagon wheel stuff in this day and age, but detector battery technology seems to lag about 15 years about what RC is blazing, at least...Maybe even 20 years, and the prices too are about 20 years behind. Stuff is way cheaper these days in batteries/chargers if you know where to look....
 
Sorry Pete, left out the best part- If I were you I'd forget the regulator and just use a charger that lets you set target voltage for various cell types. With a A LifePo4 mode (which I bet is Life or LifePo compatible?) and a target voltage setting, no need to dink around with regualtors. And, then you can either go 4 dummies/4 LifePo4 in the holder, or just wire a tiny plug for 4 of them in a 4 AA holder, and still run 8AAs that way too in regular fashion. Of course though, just as easy to run 4 dummies/4 reals in regular AA slots I guess, so not much point in wiring in a plug then I guess. Also, as said, if a simple plug n charge LifePo4 charger doesn't allow you to change the target voltage, still might work. See if the specs say what the voltage peak is for the cells. If it's say around 12.6V or less for 4 cells then you are in business.

And, even if the Life mode on "our" charger won't do LifePo4, and even if it can but it won't let you set target voltage and it's too high above 12.6 or whatever you suspect is the max range for the interal Sovereign regulator, then might be a way to do it by changing the lithium cell type setting on this charger, which then adjusts the per cell nominal (and thus peak) voltage. Know what I mean? Just make sure if you can fudge it that way that the charging method for that particular lithium chemistry is compatible with LifePo4. Different lithium types use different ways to tell peak I'm pretty sure. Good luck.
 
Critterhunter

Lots of info there, will need some time to digest. As I said I have a bit on at the moment. In the middle of selling my Subaru Forester car. A much loved possession since 2004 more or less (used to be my work vehicle and I bought it when I retired in 2007. I always get stressed when selling stuff, especially when it is larger amounts. Always worry that there may be unknown faults or dramas to follow.

My little dog Chooky has been in the wars a bit lately also, ant/wasp bites and for some reason a very swollen right eye with a pinprick sized pupil. Vet prescribed Atropine and the pupil dilated so there was no iris left at all for several days. Getting back to normal now but the various other medications have put her off her tucker a bit and she is not her normal self. Getting better every day though.

I do have a couple of Sovereign alkaline packs as well as the rechargeable NiMH pack so I have plenty of scope. Yes the little green LED dims considerably when my NiMH pack is fully charged.

Love your posts and have followed your exploits for what must be a couple of years now. Have looked at some of your videos and video links to do with RC planes. Would love to give it a go, but too many interests on the go already.

I have spent more time here already than I can afford today, will come back before bed tonight and read your post again

Cheers from Tassie

Pete
 
Pete, sorry to hear about the dog. Hope it's on the mend. And hey, once again, you've got the background so much if not all of my thoughts might be needless to you, but just the same perhaps of use to some others.

Anyway, pretty much covered it all in potential angles of using LifePo4, but was thinking that this is the meat on the bone here below...

Been a while since I dabbled with linear regulators building projects, but if memory serves I think the ones I have experience with have a lowest source voltage input level of perhaps 1V above set static output that never changed. Be that the case, then here's the thing...

GT's internal regulator has a LVC cut off (low battery alarm) point of about 9.8V when I've checked it, so probably it's 10V minimum rated due to variances from one regulator to another in production. If that's the case, then I'd shoot for a linear regulator of say 10.5 to 11V static output. Just high enough to avoid the low battery alarm of the Sovereign.

By doing that, you are lowering the minimum allowed input voltage of your regulator from the battery as much as possible to avoid shorter run times. Probably in best case scenerio, with say a +1V needed above the static output of your regulator, that means the lowest allowed input to it is proably going to be 11 or 12V depending on it's specs.

That's probably still cutting it close in terms of run time for the 4 LifePo4 cells. You are biasing the discharge range of them in that case from full potential charge (14+V?) to only being able to drain down to 12V per cycle before your regulator no longer functions. That might give some rather short run times. I haven't really delved into the true charged voltage peak of LifePo4, so it might not even be over 14V?

And that voltage peak might be very dependent on the charger used, where some will keep charging to a higher level for LifePo4 than others. Know what I mean? Your run time might be pretty small, even with a 14+V peak when fully charged. If most of LifePo4's discharge range is say in the 10 to 12V range, then the meat of it's capacity is below your minimum of say 12V input for your regulator. Might be the initial voltage charged to drops rapidly from say over 14V, and then once it gets down around sub 12V it begins to flat line for the rest of the discharge?

The other negative about using a regulator, is now you can't rely on the low battery alarm of the GT. When the cells drop to below the minimum input of your regulator, chances are the GT will just stop working because the regulator is no longer feeding the internal GT regulator. It'll just bomb out all of a sudden with no warning. Not a big deal, just that without hearing a low battery alarm every time the pack hits the LVC for your regulator, to me that might every time have me thinking "I hope something didn't go wrong with my GT" every time it just dies on my all of a sudden. :biggrin:

The beauty of not using a regulator is that the 10V LVC point of the GT's internal regulator is right in line with the minimum discharge allowed on your LifePo4 cells, so you are getting true range of capacity in run time by just waiting for the low voltage alarm to sound off. I bet even by limiting the peak voltage when charging the LifePo4 cells to say around 12.6 or so V, you aren't missing much capacity not being put back into the cells for the charge maybe. Much more might be lost perhaps if you are using a regulator with say a 12V minimum input.

Plus by using a charger that limits peak voltage (either in it's static setting or by adjustment), you are eliminating a need for a regulator all together, or a mini plug to use, and just can go straight to 4 cells and 4 dummies in the regular holder, or say a 4 cell holder in there so you can ditch the 4 dummies, using a tiny plug. Easy enough to do. I grinded down the battery channels in my Alkaline so my lipo would fit easier. I can still use 8AAs in there. The channels are needless, or a piece of tape over them will hold them in proper alignment if need be.

If you do go the regulator route, wire a plug in parallel to the two battery wires in that channel behind the little empty compartment. Keep your regulator and capacitors on a low profile 4AA holder. That way that plug can be used for other 12V sources in the future, and also 8AAs could still be used due to the regulator not being wired in parallel in the circuit. Even if the regulator is wired behind the tiny plug you use and kept in that empty chamber, if it's in parallel you can still run regular 8AAs since the regulator is out of the picture. With it wired in series back there, 8AAs will not be able to run the regulator very long if at all since chances are your regulator will have a minimum of say 12V input voltage neeeded to output say 10.5 to 11V or whatever you pick.

Far better approach after considering all this to just not use an regulator at all and just use a charger that won't peak the cells beyond about 12.6V.

As a side note, I have run those Energizer Lithium non-rechargeable AAs in my GT in the past. At 1.7V per cell when new that would be a source voltage of 13.6V at first, until it drops down and runs at the 1.5V typical voltage applications they are meant for. I didn't have issues with them but still without knowing the max input the Sovereign regulator is designed to handle that could be playing with fire. If it has a thermal overload, then if lucky once the regulator cools down it should work again. Just saying I have used a higher source voltage than 12.6V of my 3 cell lipo.

That should just about cover any possibilities so that'll do it for me here. Please keep us informed on your progress...
 
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