Find's Treasure Forums
Welcome to Find's Treasure Forums, Guests!
You are viewing this forums as a guest which limits you to read only status.
Only registered members may post stories, questions, classifieds, reply to other posts, contact other members using built in messaging and use many other features found on these forums.
Why not register and join us today? It's free! (We don't share your email addresses with anyone.) We keep email addresses of our users to protect them and others from bad people posting things they shouldn't.
Click here to register!
Need Support Help?
Cannot log in?, click here to have new password emailed to you
Changed email? Forgot to update your account with new email address? Need assistance with something else?, click here to go to Find's Support Form and fill out the form.
Lipo battery for whites detectors
- Thread starter norbyx
- Start date
Critterhunter
New member
Good video. We already covered all this stuff on cheap lipo conversions and such (some the same sources in fact, heavy in the RC car/plane world) for lipos and aftermarket chargers and such for various detectors in threads in this forum and the Sovereign battery sticky forum a couple of years ago, both a couple of years ago. Same points made in fact, with a few other notes of interest. Were you one of the ones to read our threads? I've got a few things to add to your video that I feel should have been mentioned but don't have the time to do it at the moment. When I get around to it I will.
If anybody wants to dive deeper into lipo care, charging, conversion of various machines, etc...Do a search in this forum for threads me and Kered did on this a couple of years ago complete with pictures and fine details as well. Search for "Kered" user name in this forum, as well as for "lipo" (might not be able to do that short of a search term) or "critterhunter" user name in this forum. Also, visit the battery sticky in the Sovereign forum, as there are links to other threads by us on lipo conversions, setting up chargers, the conversion issues, and so on.
Also, a ton of info on nimh or nicad battery/charging care, how to recovery bad packs you think are dead or won't hold long charge times (nimhs/nicads in this aspect), and so on. We even talk about charging the stock packs for faster charge times (if wanted) for various machines using aftermarket chargers, such as the GT, Etrac, Excalibur, old Sovereign XS, and provide broad but detailed information on how this stuff can be applied to other machines. Even if you don't want to charge a pack faster, just the capacity display and being able to excercise packs is well worth investing in an aftermarket (and cheap, south of $20) charger. These kinds of computer display chargers will also help you to monitor your pack's condition over time (life span), keep it in shape, as well as clearly indicate when the pack is charged where as many stock chargers don't even indicate charge completion or are vague about it with only dimming lights and such. Some stock chargers don't even shut of the current when charged, which can be very bad for the life span of a pack.
Once you understand the charging specifics of various battery types you can pretty much charge or change a battery on anything. Just have to make sure you understand all aspects well as the caring and feeding of ANY battery type can be a life or death issue. Fires, explosions, damage to detectors, all this is possible if you don't know what you are doing. So despite our advice, ALWAYS confirm things yourself from various sources across the net. Many differing opinions on batteries, charging, and care. I only base mine on years of electric RC plane use, where battery care can mean a plane makes it back or not, but by no means am I saying I know I'm right on all aspects, so always confirm and verify on your own and don't assume I'm right.
If anybody wants to dive deeper into lipo care, charging, conversion of various machines, etc...Do a search in this forum for threads me and Kered did on this a couple of years ago complete with pictures and fine details as well. Search for "Kered" user name in this forum, as well as for "lipo" (might not be able to do that short of a search term) or "critterhunter" user name in this forum. Also, visit the battery sticky in the Sovereign forum, as there are links to other threads by us on lipo conversions, setting up chargers, the conversion issues, and so on.
Also, a ton of info on nimh or nicad battery/charging care, how to recovery bad packs you think are dead or won't hold long charge times (nimhs/nicads in this aspect), and so on. We even talk about charging the stock packs for faster charge times (if wanted) for various machines using aftermarket chargers, such as the GT, Etrac, Excalibur, old Sovereign XS, and provide broad but detailed information on how this stuff can be applied to other machines. Even if you don't want to charge a pack faster, just the capacity display and being able to excercise packs is well worth investing in an aftermarket (and cheap, south of $20) charger. These kinds of computer display chargers will also help you to monitor your pack's condition over time (life span), keep it in shape, as well as clearly indicate when the pack is charged where as many stock chargers don't even indicate charge completion or are vague about it with only dimming lights and such. Some stock chargers don't even shut of the current when charged, which can be very bad for the life span of a pack.
Once you understand the charging specifics of various battery types you can pretty much charge or change a battery on anything. Just have to make sure you understand all aspects well as the caring and feeding of ANY battery type can be a life or death issue. Fires, explosions, damage to detectors, all this is possible if you don't know what you are doing. So despite our advice, ALWAYS confirm things yourself from various sources across the net. Many differing opinions on batteries, charging, and care. I only base mine on years of electric RC plane use, where battery care can mean a plane makes it back or not, but by no means am I saying I know I'm right on all aspects, so always confirm and verify on your own and don't assume I'm right.
norbyx said:
LITHIUM-POLY- THE WORLD's MOST DANGEROUS BATTERY
I'm Not Showing You This So You Will Go Out And Buy Our Battery Pack...I'm Showing You This So You Can Draw Your Own Conclusion!
PLEASE Watch The Reason RNB Innovations Will Not Ever Use Lithum-Poly in Our Injection Mold Battery Packs
The Li-ion Batteries we Use in our Products are the Same Used in ALL Cell Phones, Power Tools, Cameras, Laptops
You get the drift....They are used for nearly everything you can possibly think of this day and age.
They are used because they are safe, You can plug them in and walk away because the Inteligent Battery
Charger will auto shut off when fully Charged..
You can Use Lithium-ion Until They Go Dead You Don't Need A BuZZer To Let You Know...What If You Have Your Headphones on and Don't HEAR
The Warning BuZZer, Well you can Throw that Battery in The Trash and Start Over!
The Li-Poly Batteries are Great for the Professional Hobbiest that wants that Edge in their Remote RACECAR, HELICOPTOR PLANE or BOAT
But not in a Metal Detector....... IT's JUST TO DANGEROUS!!!
You can DIY a Battery Pack with much safer Batteries than this to save a Buck......
Whites Uses a Lithium-ion in the TDI Pro that costs $200.00 Just for the Battery..Why Don't They Use Lithium-Poly----Do I Really Have To Tell You? I didn't Think So!
Minelab Just Came Out With Their New Detector The CTX 3030 And That's Right They Are Using Lithium-ion----Again, Do I Have to Tell You Why?
Lithium-ion Batteries Are by Far The Best Battery On the Market For Consumer Products Around The World....It' Been Proven!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DcpANRFrI4&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixIOEPnsgbI&feature=player_embedded
That's Just my Honest Opinion and Many Others if you Want to Search the Internet...
Thank You For Your Time.
RNB Innovations
Critterhunter
New member
ALL battery types are inherently unsafe. Lithium, for example, will explode or catch fire on contact with water. Just search youtube for demonstrations on that. All you have to do is surf youtube to see what happens with lithium ion or just about any other battery type on the market when exposed to water, overcharged, punctured, shorted, and so on. Countless stores on the news of cell phones, computers, laptops, and so on going nuclear due to battery problems.
As for lipos, they got a bad rap early on only because they didn't feature balance plugs and nor did the chargers have balance ports. What would happen is one cell would be at a higher state of charge when put on the charger and then as a result it would over charge a cell in the pack and bad things could happen. Lipo cells are only allowed to be charged to 4.2V per cell.
These days all lipo chargers and packs that I've seen all come with balance plugs so they can monitor and shut off the charge to each cell in the pack individually to avoid overcharging. I've charged these packs countless times for years and hundred of cycles and never had an issue with them. In fact, because many other battery types don't feature a balance plug one could argue that they are even more dangerous than lipos these days during the charging process. I've seen nimh packs go nuclear due to this. The hole pack is being charged as one and various cells can be in different states of charge, resulting in overcharging.
Also, the charging requirements of lipo chargers bases the state of full charge on the voltage and amp draw of the cell along with some very sophisticated software logarithms. With nimhs or nicads to see that the pack is peaked relies on the m/v threshold setting, as the voltage target peak isn't a known quantity to shoot for, and this is far less of a sure bet (based on the subjective m/v setting) to see the peak of the pack than it is with lipos that rely on the target voltage and the amp draw (along with some software monitoring algorithms) to determine when each cell has peaked, and that's done on a per cell basis so as said much safer in that respect to IMO. Changing the amp charging rate on say a nimh or nicad can alter the proper m/v threshold setting. Set too low and the pack false terminates. Set too high and the charger never sees the pack is done and will overcharge the battery, causing a fire risk. Beyond all that, as said, the fact that nimhs, nicads, and some other battery types don't feature individual cell monitoring via a balance plug makes them more of a risk during charging than lipos IMO.
The reason why many products don't use lipos IMO is mainly due to them lacking a hard outer shell in most production applications. This is also one of the reasons they are pretty much the lightest battery on the market. Despite them not having a hard outer shell, I've crashed RC electric planes at 100mph and still the pack survived with no issues. A few times I've severely dented a pack and it still was fine (after several days of close observation isolated in a fire proof location, they returned to service in my planes). But still, lacking a hard outer shell they tend to be risky for various consumer uses where they might be used and abused more by Joe citizen, so many companies for that reason opt for other battery technologies in devices like say hand tools. In fact, A23 cells and a few others are becoming very popular in various hand tool applications for both their durability (hard shell), but also for their ability to be even "safer" with putting up with potential abuse than other battery types that the average consumer might subject them to.
I do see your point about the low battery alarm with the light being on all the time. If you forget to unplug the battery it might draw it down below 9V (3V per cell) and ruin the battery. That's one of the things I was going to tell him about in the video. If his machine has a low battery alarm that sounds off at 9V or higher then there is no need for the low battery plug in alarm as that's just the potential to forget to unplug and could ruin the battery. On my Sovereign GT the LVC (low voltage cutoff) point for the internal regulator inside the GT will sound the low battery alarm at about 10.2 to 10.5V, so I have no fear of my lipos draining past 9V in total voltage.
For anybody who wishes to judge that on your machine, it's rather easy. Use the machine until the low battery alarm sounds using a normal nimh or alkaline pack. Once the low battery alarm sounds then use a volt meter and measure the voltage of the pack. You now know how low the machine will let the voltage get before it sounds the LVC point. These metal detectors are so low in amp draw that the voltage shouldn't really pop back up much if any at all due to load sag, thus showing what's called "surface voltage" when the load is taken off the battery. In high amp draw applications the load can cause the voltage to sag, where as when the load is removed the voltage will spring back up. I guess there is still slight potential for that even with the very low amp draw of a metal detector, so if you want to play it safe and be sure you are seeing the true LVC cutoff point then hook the battery (that sounded the lvc alarm) back on the machine via alligator jumper wires and turn the machine on and take a voltage reading. You might also want to take the reading while the machine is under it's heaviest load (wave a coin past the coil so it's expending extra current to process and sound off to it) and see if the voltage sags lower to where LVC (the low battery alarm) is set off.
Lipos, handled properly, are no more unsafe than any other battery these days IMO. There are stories of fires being caused by lithium Ion packs in the news all the time too. The truth is no battery is "safe". It's just like filling your car with gasoline. Sure, the gas is not safe, but as long as you follow a few common sense rules (like not smoking) gas is "safe" to handle. As is lipos IMO...
Now, that said, part of those precautions is never to charge above it's max charging C rate (this is different than the C rating of it's amp delivering ability!). Usually most lipos are fine to charge at 1C (the capacity in millamps of the pack). Some can be charged faster these days but who can't wait an hour so why be in such a rush? Also, I only charge my packs (nimh, nicad, or lipo) in the middle of the cement floor in my garage if I can't keep an eye on them, and even then it's a good idea to pop in on them as much as possible to monitor things. Finally, I store all my batteries in a metal box (lined or painted inside to prevent shorts) and that box is stored in my refrigerator, as it's better for the life span of the packs to be stored that way. It makes them age slower.
One final note...If you do get into lipos get a charger that has a sleep voltage storage feature. It will set the pack to the best voltage and capacity level for long term storage to slow down the aging process. Use that to store your pack for months for better capacity down the road. I've got lipos I've been running raged for 5 or 6 years used in very high amp draw applications (40 amps or more) and they are still holding great capacity and running like new because I store them this way when I don't use them for long periods of time.
All the above stuff said, it's up to YOU to confirm and verify ANY advice from ANYBODY, and that includes me. Charging, safety, and care and feeding of batteries varies in opinion on the net any many debates on care have been going on for 20+ years. So research yourself and decide who and what to believe on your own. ANY battery, nimh, nicad, lithium ion, lipos, lead acid (car), etc...They ALL have various danger aspects to them. Consider none safe, just like you do with gas when handling that.
As for lipos, they got a bad rap early on only because they didn't feature balance plugs and nor did the chargers have balance ports. What would happen is one cell would be at a higher state of charge when put on the charger and then as a result it would over charge a cell in the pack and bad things could happen. Lipo cells are only allowed to be charged to 4.2V per cell.
These days all lipo chargers and packs that I've seen all come with balance plugs so they can monitor and shut off the charge to each cell in the pack individually to avoid overcharging. I've charged these packs countless times for years and hundred of cycles and never had an issue with them. In fact, because many other battery types don't feature a balance plug one could argue that they are even more dangerous than lipos these days during the charging process. I've seen nimh packs go nuclear due to this. The hole pack is being charged as one and various cells can be in different states of charge, resulting in overcharging.
Also, the charging requirements of lipo chargers bases the state of full charge on the voltage and amp draw of the cell along with some very sophisticated software logarithms. With nimhs or nicads to see that the pack is peaked relies on the m/v threshold setting, as the voltage target peak isn't a known quantity to shoot for, and this is far less of a sure bet (based on the subjective m/v setting) to see the peak of the pack than it is with lipos that rely on the target voltage and the amp draw (along with some software monitoring algorithms) to determine when each cell has peaked, and that's done on a per cell basis so as said much safer in that respect to IMO. Changing the amp charging rate on say a nimh or nicad can alter the proper m/v threshold setting. Set too low and the pack false terminates. Set too high and the charger never sees the pack is done and will overcharge the battery, causing a fire risk. Beyond all that, as said, the fact that nimhs, nicads, and some other battery types don't feature individual cell monitoring via a balance plug makes them more of a risk during charging than lipos IMO.
The reason why many products don't use lipos IMO is mainly due to them lacking a hard outer shell in most production applications. This is also one of the reasons they are pretty much the lightest battery on the market. Despite them not having a hard outer shell, I've crashed RC electric planes at 100mph and still the pack survived with no issues. A few times I've severely dented a pack and it still was fine (after several days of close observation isolated in a fire proof location, they returned to service in my planes). But still, lacking a hard outer shell they tend to be risky for various consumer uses where they might be used and abused more by Joe citizen, so many companies for that reason opt for other battery technologies in devices like say hand tools. In fact, A23 cells and a few others are becoming very popular in various hand tool applications for both their durability (hard shell), but also for their ability to be even "safer" with putting up with potential abuse than other battery types that the average consumer might subject them to.
I do see your point about the low battery alarm with the light being on all the time. If you forget to unplug the battery it might draw it down below 9V (3V per cell) and ruin the battery. That's one of the things I was going to tell him about in the video. If his machine has a low battery alarm that sounds off at 9V or higher then there is no need for the low battery plug in alarm as that's just the potential to forget to unplug and could ruin the battery. On my Sovereign GT the LVC (low voltage cutoff) point for the internal regulator inside the GT will sound the low battery alarm at about 10.2 to 10.5V, so I have no fear of my lipos draining past 9V in total voltage.
For anybody who wishes to judge that on your machine, it's rather easy. Use the machine until the low battery alarm sounds using a normal nimh or alkaline pack. Once the low battery alarm sounds then use a volt meter and measure the voltage of the pack. You now know how low the machine will let the voltage get before it sounds the LVC point. These metal detectors are so low in amp draw that the voltage shouldn't really pop back up much if any at all due to load sag, thus showing what's called "surface voltage" when the load is taken off the battery. In high amp draw applications the load can cause the voltage to sag, where as when the load is removed the voltage will spring back up. I guess there is still slight potential for that even with the very low amp draw of a metal detector, so if you want to play it safe and be sure you are seeing the true LVC cutoff point then hook the battery (that sounded the lvc alarm) back on the machine via alligator jumper wires and turn the machine on and take a voltage reading. You might also want to take the reading while the machine is under it's heaviest load (wave a coin past the coil so it's expending extra current to process and sound off to it) and see if the voltage sags lower to where LVC (the low battery alarm) is set off.
Lipos, handled properly, are no more unsafe than any other battery these days IMO. There are stories of fires being caused by lithium Ion packs in the news all the time too. The truth is no battery is "safe". It's just like filling your car with gasoline. Sure, the gas is not safe, but as long as you follow a few common sense rules (like not smoking) gas is "safe" to handle. As is lipos IMO...
Now, that said, part of those precautions is never to charge above it's max charging C rate (this is different than the C rating of it's amp delivering ability!). Usually most lipos are fine to charge at 1C (the capacity in millamps of the pack). Some can be charged faster these days but who can't wait an hour so why be in such a rush? Also, I only charge my packs (nimh, nicad, or lipo) in the middle of the cement floor in my garage if I can't keep an eye on them, and even then it's a good idea to pop in on them as much as possible to monitor things. Finally, I store all my batteries in a metal box (lined or painted inside to prevent shorts) and that box is stored in my refrigerator, as it's better for the life span of the packs to be stored that way. It makes them age slower.
One final note...If you do get into lipos get a charger that has a sleep voltage storage feature. It will set the pack to the best voltage and capacity level for long term storage to slow down the aging process. Use that to store your pack for months for better capacity down the road. I've got lipos I've been running raged for 5 or 6 years used in very high amp draw applications (40 amps or more) and they are still holding great capacity and running like new because I store them this way when I don't use them for long periods of time.
All the above stuff said, it's up to YOU to confirm and verify ANY advice from ANYBODY, and that includes me. Charging, safety, and care and feeding of batteries varies in opinion on the net any many debates on care have been going on for 20+ years. So research yourself and decide who and what to believe on your own. ANY battery, nimh, nicad, lithium ion, lipos, lead acid (car), etc...They ALL have various danger aspects to them. Consider none safe, just like you do with gas when handling that.
Critterhunter,
I have being working with lipos since they came out and have been in rc (planes, cars and boats) since the 1987. Stated that I have never ever had a battery melt or blow in my life, it is obvious that my mod in creating a lipo battery for $50 makes some uncomfortable. I just hope that users realize that there are options to high cost batteries that perform just as well if not better and cost a fraction.
I have being working with lipos since they came out and have been in rc (planes, cars and boats) since the 1987. Stated that I have never ever had a battery melt or blow in my life, it is obvious that my mod in creating a lipo battery for $50 makes some uncomfortable. I just hope that users realize that there are options to high cost batteries that perform just as well if not better and cost a fraction.
If you are an RC guy or you know what you are doing all is well. I worry about the average guy doing the LiPo pack build. I've built packs and all is well if people understand what is involved. The possibility for SCREWUP is there.
The parts prices quoted are lower than I can find. List the parts numbers please.
The parts prices quoted are lower than I can find. List the parts numbers please.
I will be glad to post direct links if this doesn't go against any forum rules.
For now this is the parts that can be found in the web page I state on the video. Doing a small search they can be easily found:
Turnigy nano-tech 2500mAh 3S1P 5~10C Transmitter Lipo Pack $14.99
Hobby King Battery Monitor 3S $3.99
Nylon T-Connectors 10 Pairs (20pc) $3.01
Turnigy balancer & Charger 2S-3S $4.49
For now this is the parts that can be found in the web page I state on the video. Doing a small search they can be easily found:
Turnigy nano-tech 2500mAh 3S1P 5~10C Transmitter Lipo Pack $14.99
Hobby King Battery Monitor 3S $3.99
Nylon T-Connectors 10 Pairs (20pc) $3.01
Turnigy balancer & Charger 2S-3S $4.49
With this Charger the Turnigy nano-tech 2500mAh 3S1P 5~10C Transmitter Lipo Pack will take about 8 to 10 hrs to charge.
Or you can buy a $300.00 Charger like the one NORBYX Uses
These Batteries Are Made For The RC World and not used for anything but the RC World.....BUILD AT YOUR OWN RISK!!!!
Their are plenty of other Batteries that are Much Safer than Using This Type of Litium -Poly for Your Expensive Detector!
If Lithium-Poly Batteries are so Safe to Use Why Doesn't Whites Use Them For The TDI PRO or MINELAB Use Them for The New MINELAB CTX 3030 or Dell Use Them in Their Laptops...
I could go on and on...........
We all use Lithium-ion Because They are More Practical and Much Safer......
Turnigy 2S/3S Lithium Polymer Battery Charger
User Manual
PLEASE READ........
1.1 Before using the Turnigy 2S/3S
Lithium Polymer (LiPO, Li-Po) battery
charger you must read this manual. It is
important to understand its operation and
all safety steps before using it.
2.0 FEATURES
2.1 The charger
Or you can buy a $300.00 Charger like the one NORBYX Uses
These Batteries Are Made For The RC World and not used for anything but the RC World.....BUILD AT YOUR OWN RISK!!!!
Their are plenty of other Batteries that are Much Safer than Using This Type of Litium -Poly for Your Expensive Detector!
If Lithium-Poly Batteries are so Safe to Use Why Doesn't Whites Use Them For The TDI PRO or MINELAB Use Them for The New MINELAB CTX 3030 or Dell Use Them in Their Laptops...
I could go on and on...........
We all use Lithium-ion Because They are More Practical and Much Safer......
Turnigy 2S/3S Lithium Polymer Battery Charger
User Manual
PLEASE READ........
1.1 Before using the Turnigy 2S/3S
Lithium Polymer (LiPO, Li-Po) battery
charger you must read this manual. It is
important to understand its operation and
all safety steps before using it.
2.0 FEATURES
2.1 The charger
Turnigy balancer & Charger 2S-3S
Fits all Zippy 3S or 2S packs and charges at a rate of around 800mAh.
This is an excellent & cheap solution to charging 2 or 3S lipoly. Connect 4-5 chargers at once and charge multiple packs from the same power source!
Input: 12~15v DC
2500mah battery with 800mah charge means about 3 hours charge time....
Can you please tell me how did you come up with 8-10 hours charge time??? Unless your math is different than mine...
Fits all Zippy 3S or 2S packs and charges at a rate of around 800mAh.
This is an excellent & cheap solution to charging 2 or 3S lipoly. Connect 4-5 chargers at once and charge multiple packs from the same power source!
Input: 12~15v DC
2500mah battery with 800mah charge means about 3 hours charge time....
Can you please tell me how did you come up with 8-10 hours charge time??? Unless your math is different than mine...
Critterhunter
New member
Norbyx, yes...same deal here. I've ran lipos for about 7 years or so roughly in my electric RC planes. Never once have I had a problem with them. Even crashed planes numerous times at speeds of around 100mph and even with the soft shell most of the time the pack was fine, although a few times I did dent them so badly it looked like the front end of a car that hit a tree, and yet even those packs, once I observed them closely for a few days in a fire proof box, had no issues when returned to service in my planes. That said, nobody takes unnecessary chances, so I store my packs in metal box (painted on the inside with a heavy coat of paint to prevent potential shorts, and stored in my refrigerator to slow the aging process for years). And, I store ALL my battery types in that box, lipos, nimhs, nicads, and so on. It's also important to drill small (but many of them) vent holes into the top of the box, so if a pack would happen to explode or at least release gas quickly, it will not blow the lid off the box as the pressure can release through the vent holes you drilled. Also, another tip...separate as many of your batteries in the box as you can by using drywall (most won't burn). That way if a pack should go nuclear it won't take all the packs with it. I tend to store 2 or 3 in each compartment that way each, so at the most I'll only loose 2 or 3 if something goes wrong.
All that said, ANY battery type can be dangerous if abused in various ways, and by the same token ANY battery type is just as safe to use as another (IMO), SO LONG AS you know how to charge, care for, and treat the pack. As I said before, gasoline isn't what you'd call "safe" either, but with a few common sense precautions millions of people use it every day and never have a problem. Same deal with lipos. Millions of RC guys using them in cars and planes. Early on, around the time about 7 years or so ago, when lipos were first getting cheap enough (at some sources) for more people to use in RC, there were in fact many fires. But MOST of them were due to the packs and chargers not having balance ports to monitor each cell on it's own, and thus they would overcharge a cell or two and then it's fire city for sure. With the introduction of balance chargers and balance plugs (molex) on lipo packs, the fire problem has mostly gone away. In fact, lipo chargers often have numerous safety features on them, like requiring you to set the cell count manually but then refuses to charge the pack if the voltage doesn't match what that many cells in series should be. That's double walled safety right there for just one aspect of these chargers. Many these days will also shut down the charge if the voltage isn't climbing as fast as it thinks it should and suspects something is wrong with the pack.
That said, yes...lipos still cause fires...but usually it's due to people dead shorting them out, or puncturing them, or over-amping the heck out of them (drawing way more amps than the pack is rated to handle), or charging at a higher amp rate then the pack allows. The norm is usually 1C charging rate (about 1 hour charge time, or capacity of the pack...a 2500ma pack would charge at 2.5 amps for example). Some packs can be charged faster these days but why rush it? 1C, unlike for nimhs or nicads or some other battery types, is not pushing a lipo if it's rated to handle a 1C rate. Won't even get hot, and that is what destroys a battery when charging at too fast a speed. Nimhs or nicads, at least some of them, when pushed at 1C or higher will often get hot, thus giving less life spans. Now, please note that there are still lipos out there that require a charge rate less than 1C, so make sure you know what it is, but most these days are at least 1C. Even if my pack says it can charge a 2C or higher I still do 1C. Only takes an hour, and I'm sure I'm not stressing the life span of the pack that way. Besides, the math is much easier to remember to set the amp rate....2700ma pack, for example, means I can charge at anywhere up to 2.7 amps. But it's perfectly fine to charge the pack at a much lower rate if you want. With most lipos you just don't need to, because it isn't pushing most of them to do 1C while it can for other battery types.
There are plenty of simple plug-n-charge very cheap lipo chargers these days. Just set the charge rate to anything 1C or below if it can handle 1C by a simple switch to select the amp rate, then plug the pack's balance plug (molex) into the proper molex plug (they are different size for 1, 2, 3, 4, and so on packs. A 3 cell series pack goes into the port that is the same size of it. Simple as that. Just make sure it's charged where you can keep an eye on it, or at least in the middle of a cement floor away from anything that could burn, but even then it's a good idea to watch it. AND, this is for ANY battery type out there. Any of them it's a good idea to do with.
[size=large]I've got a few more points on battery safety and such, but I need a smoke so I'll just post this for now and then type some more later. Most important thing is safety, and like I said don't follow my advice or anybody else's for that matter without confirming things on your own from several sources. There is great debate on various aspects of all types of batteries and their proper care that has been going on for years. Some believe one thing, while others believe another, so it's up to you to learn and educate yourself and decide just what you think is the safest way to care for a battery and also the best way to take good care of it.[/size]
[size=large]Once again, great video...
There's just a few minor points I want to make IMO on aspects of the video concerning safety and other things, but not trying to knock your video. Makes it much easier for people who might be interested in running a cheap, light, lipo or some other battery type in their machine. But people out there, just DON'T mess with ANY battery packs of ANY type unless you know exactly what you are doing! Just not worth losing a life, a hand, or an eye over, or burning your house down. Once you know what you are doing, though, it's just as safe as say handling gasoline. Do you fear doing that? No, most people don't. You don't need to fear things, but you do need to know how to respect and handle them. So don't do it if you don't.[/size]
All that said, ANY battery type can be dangerous if abused in various ways, and by the same token ANY battery type is just as safe to use as another (IMO), SO LONG AS you know how to charge, care for, and treat the pack. As I said before, gasoline isn't what you'd call "safe" either, but with a few common sense precautions millions of people use it every day and never have a problem. Same deal with lipos. Millions of RC guys using them in cars and planes. Early on, around the time about 7 years or so ago, when lipos were first getting cheap enough (at some sources) for more people to use in RC, there were in fact many fires. But MOST of them were due to the packs and chargers not having balance ports to monitor each cell on it's own, and thus they would overcharge a cell or two and then it's fire city for sure. With the introduction of balance chargers and balance plugs (molex) on lipo packs, the fire problem has mostly gone away. In fact, lipo chargers often have numerous safety features on them, like requiring you to set the cell count manually but then refuses to charge the pack if the voltage doesn't match what that many cells in series should be. That's double walled safety right there for just one aspect of these chargers. Many these days will also shut down the charge if the voltage isn't climbing as fast as it thinks it should and suspects something is wrong with the pack.
That said, yes...lipos still cause fires...but usually it's due to people dead shorting them out, or puncturing them, or over-amping the heck out of them (drawing way more amps than the pack is rated to handle), or charging at a higher amp rate then the pack allows. The norm is usually 1C charging rate (about 1 hour charge time, or capacity of the pack...a 2500ma pack would charge at 2.5 amps for example). Some packs can be charged faster these days but why rush it? 1C, unlike for nimhs or nicads or some other battery types, is not pushing a lipo if it's rated to handle a 1C rate. Won't even get hot, and that is what destroys a battery when charging at too fast a speed. Nimhs or nicads, at least some of them, when pushed at 1C or higher will often get hot, thus giving less life spans. Now, please note that there are still lipos out there that require a charge rate less than 1C, so make sure you know what it is, but most these days are at least 1C. Even if my pack says it can charge a 2C or higher I still do 1C. Only takes an hour, and I'm sure I'm not stressing the life span of the pack that way. Besides, the math is much easier to remember to set the amp rate....2700ma pack, for example, means I can charge at anywhere up to 2.7 amps. But it's perfectly fine to charge the pack at a much lower rate if you want. With most lipos you just don't need to, because it isn't pushing most of them to do 1C while it can for other battery types.
There are plenty of simple plug-n-charge very cheap lipo chargers these days. Just set the charge rate to anything 1C or below if it can handle 1C by a simple switch to select the amp rate, then plug the pack's balance plug (molex) into the proper molex plug (they are different size for 1, 2, 3, 4, and so on packs. A 3 cell series pack goes into the port that is the same size of it. Simple as that. Just make sure it's charged where you can keep an eye on it, or at least in the middle of a cement floor away from anything that could burn, but even then it's a good idea to watch it. AND, this is for ANY battery type out there. Any of them it's a good idea to do with.
[size=large]I've got a few more points on battery safety and such, but I need a smoke so I'll just post this for now and then type some more later. Most important thing is safety, and like I said don't follow my advice or anybody else's for that matter without confirming things on your own from several sources. There is great debate on various aspects of all types of batteries and their proper care that has been going on for years. Some believe one thing, while others believe another, so it's up to you to learn and educate yourself and decide just what you think is the safest way to care for a battery and also the best way to take good care of it.[/size]
[size=large]Once again, great video...
There's just a few minor points I want to make IMO on aspects of the video concerning safety and other things, but not trying to knock your video. Makes it much easier for people who might be interested in running a cheap, light, lipo or some other battery type in their machine. But people out there, just DON'T mess with ANY battery packs of ANY type unless you know exactly what you are doing! Just not worth losing a life, a hand, or an eye over, or burning your house down. Once you know what you are doing, though, it's just as safe as say handling gasoline. Do you fear doing that? No, most people don't. You don't need to fear things, but you do need to know how to respect and handle them. So don't do it if you don't.[/size]That was 2009 and it was a flaw in the Battery itself..
Even AA Batteries can catch on fire when used wrong!
My point is Lithium-Poly have a higher chance of given you problems because you must be educated on charging and discharging procedures..
Where Lithium-ion are pretty much Plug and Play Idiot Proof Batteries for the Consumer......
Even AA Batteries can catch on fire when used wrong!
My point is Lithium-Poly have a higher chance of given you problems because you must be educated on charging and discharging procedures..
Where Lithium-ion are pretty much Plug and Play Idiot Proof Batteries for the Consumer......
Main reason is size, in the case of the whites detector the battery case is designed to hold AA size batteries, li-ion just won't fit since they are cilindrical but have a bigger diameter than the AA . Or if you find something that will fit than capacity is less than the lipo. Also I always worked with lipos so that was my first choice.Rob (IL) said:
Critterhunter
New member
A few more points for now....
I'm not talking to anybody specific here because I don't feel like figuring out which name to respond to and the posting this name, then that name, and keep doing that back and fourth to direct my points to those that brought a point up, so you can figure out what questions were asked or points raised that I'm giving my opinion on. Must be at least 4 people who all brought up points I thought were good conversation that I wanted to throw my two bits in on, and I don't feel like going back and seeing who's name is what and posting each name to each point, so you can figure out on your own if I'm sharing my two cents on a point you raised or not. Too much work to figure out who said what in this excellent conservation on batteries in this thread...
To anybody out there who is thinking of making their own pack or buying their own charger to charge one. For sure do NOT mess with this stuff unless you are well versed and educated in it! You are FAR better off to buy a ready made pack for a device with a matching charger. Then you don't have to know proper amp charging rates, risk shorting a pack if you need to install a different plug on it, risk burning out a device because you used a pack with too much voltage (too many cells), and so on. Just not playing with that risk if you don't know exactly what you are doing, how to solder, and so on. But, even if you are using the stock pack and charger for your machine, don't treat it like it's perfectly safe. In fact, while I've never had a problem with lipos, I have had problems with nimhs or nicads when charging them. I've had them go nuclear on me and be a major fire risk due to one issue or another, but these issues are ones that lipo chargers protect against (like individual cell monitoring against overcharge) that nimhs or nicad packs don't. ALL battery types, I don't care what kind, have various risk factor variables depending on type of chemistry. None should be considered safe IMO, but just like gasoline with common sense and a few precautions the risk can be held to a minimum. Even if you do everything right, with any battery type, ALWAYS charge in a fire proof place like in the middle of a cement floor away from anything that a spark could jump to or an explosion (or venting) could travel to and catch on fire.
A few minor points about the video and such...I see you went to Deans plugs. While I use those in my high amp RC applications, they are needlessly robust (and large) for the low amp draw of metal detectors (my GT is well south of 1 amp and in the 50 to 60ma range). There is good reason why tiny JST plugs like the one you removed from that pack are used. It's not just about saving weight in say an RC plane or something (that has low amp requirements well within the ability of that smaller plug), but also because there is less risk for a potential short. Deans, as good as they are, still have bigger openings for the contacts, and thus I have heard of them being shorted by accident when carried in a pocket or something where say your keys are, which is never a good idea for any type of plug anyway, Deans or not.
By using the stock JST plug on my lipos in my GT's 8AA alkaline holder, not only am I not risking a short when changing the plug (and 1 wire should ONLY be done at a time for that for people out there to avoid such a short...attach it to the new plug first, shrink wrap the wire, and only then cut the next wire to change to the new plug. If you cut both wires at once for one thing they causes a split second short between them, and also you risk them shorting together while you are soldering them to the new plug)...Anyway, what I was saying...By using the stock tiny JST plug I'm also able to tuck that plug out of the way should I ever want to run 8AA cells in the alkaline holder again too, so that's another bonus IMO.
Just like you, I opted for lipos for my detectors over nimhs or nicads. Not only to save weight (and yet with much higher capacity) because lipos are about the lightest battery on the planet, but also because they can be found far cheaper than many other battery types these days. I've had more problems with nimhs and nicads over the years but zero problems with lipos, only because I know how to handle them. Despite proper care for nimhs/nicads, I still had a few packs go nuclear on me.
On the point of lipo applications, the reason why they aren't used in certain devices (much) is due to a few things. First, they don't have a hard outer protective shell to stand up to severe abuse, and also thus are easier to cut or puncture by accident as well. Second, lipos should never be drained below 3V per cell (or 9V in a 3 cell series pack) or it may ruin the battery. Now, that doesn't mean it's necessarily a fire risk if it is drained lower, because I've read the proper disposal of lipos is to drain them dead completely by way of a car taillight buld or something (be careful not to hook it up to something that drains more amps than the pack is rated to handle) until it is completely dead. Then, you are supposed to cut the leads (one at a time and don't short them!) and then put it in a bucket of salt water for about a week to insure it's completely dead. After that I *think* they are not considered toxic so they can be thrown in the trash, [size=large]BUT confirm all this on your own because I've only researched that once when I had to dispose of a few packs, so I MIGHT HAVE IT WRONG...Don't trust any of what I'm telling you. Seek out advice to confirm on the web![/size] Anyway, so my point is that if that is true...IF it is true...Then draining a lipo below 9V is probably not dangerous, it just means you probably destroyed the pack. I have had lipos drain below 9V when I had a plane stuck in a tree for a few days on a couple of occassions. I recovered those packs and they worked fine, but this I KNOW some say is RISKY, so once again don't follow my advice on that either! Even if it's not dangerous (?) to drain a pack below 9V, it for sure will probably ruin the pack.
You're right about the charge rate. It's not that many hours by the looks of the capacity of the pack and the amp rate you set the charger to. Charge times all depend on your amp rate. Find out what your pack will handle and do not go above that or you risk a fire or worse. I normaly charge at 1C (if the pack will handle that), even if the pack will allow 2 or 3C charge rates. Not only to be safer, but also because I feel it's easier on the pack. At 1C (about an hour's charge), a pack will take about that long when it's been drained down to say just above 9V. However, the charge time will be shorter if the pack hasn't been drained all the way to 9V. Somebody said the pack will charge less than an hour at 1C because the pack is never drained past 9V (shouldn't be ever if you are watching your voltage or have a high enough low battery alarm built into your detector (meaning from the factory it came that way) on your detector to sound off before 9V is hit. If your machine doesn't sound the low battery alarm before it hits 9V then either use the low battery buzzer he shows in the video or watch your voltage some other way (such as on the screen where some detectors will display it). Anyway, a pack drained to 9V will still take around an hour to charge if you charge it at 1C (and make sure you can charge at 1C). The capacity the pack is rated for is not based on what is below that 9V. It's rated for what is above it, so a 2500ma pack when drained to around 9V will still charge to around 2500ma if the pack is good. In fact, often they charge much higher capacity than the label on the pack says, just like nimhs or nicads, if the cells are in good condition.
You mentioned a 3 cell lipo is 11.1 volts or something. In reality a 3 cell series lipo is 12.6V at full charge. Perfect for most metal detectors if they run on an 8AA series battery pack. Lipos also hold their voltage higher than nimhs or nicads during discharge, so in fact a smaller capacity lipo can potentially run a detector longer than a stock nimh or nicad pack of a somewhat higher capacity. For instance, I seem to get longer run times out of my 3 cell 750ma pack than my stock 1000ma nimh pack. Now, if lipos are so small and light why didn't I shoot for a higher capacity than the stock pack, like say 2250ma (very popular in the RC plane crowd) and still save some weight? Well, because I customized my GT with a light weight shaft and such to save as much weight as possible. I saved about 1 and a half pounds on the stock weight, and never did I even touch the control box. The only mod to "box" was the 8AA battery holder that comes out of the machine. And for that I just installed the JST plug in it to plug the lipo in, and should I want to sell the machine down the road I can easily cut that plug right out of the holder, and should I ever want to use 8AAs in it again I can just move that tiny plug out of the way. I was shooting for max weight savings, trying to shave every single ounce, so that's why I opted for a 750ma pack. Who really needs more than 20+ hours of run time anyway between charges?
Some of the perks of lipos...Fast 1 hour charge rate (if they are rated for that) without pushing the pack and shortening it's life span. Lipos have almost zero discharge sitting on the shelf, unlike other rechargeables, so months later a pack is still ready to go at pretty much full capacity. The less weight, smaller size, and various sizes and shapes you can get them in is also a bonus.
I wouldn't use that low battery buzzer you had in the video if the machine's own low battery alarm will sound off above 9V for a 3 cell pack (if that's what is right to use on a machine, some detectors run on something other than an 8AA series pack voltage...running a 3 cell in a detector that is not meant to take that much voltage (8AAs) will probably burn it up, so make sure you guys out there know that part too of what you need to know, and if you didn't know that then don't take on a project like this, because you need to learn MUCH more than that to do things as safe as possible). But anyway, if the low battery alarm on a detector sounds off above the 9V for a 3 cell (if used) on a machine, then the low battery buzzer you used is needless. You might forget it's plugged in and drain the pack below 9V and ruin the battery.
OK, that's all I got to say for now. More than I should probably , but I'm just making sure people are aware of the risks of messing with customizing a detector by making your own battery pack for it and using your own charger. And, as said, [size=large]don't trust my advice on anything. Always get your knowledge from numerous trusted sources and then decide what to believe from there. And even if you do everything right and know what you are doing, you can still have a pack blow up or catch on fire or something even worse! And I'm talking about even stock nimh or nicad packs for detectors, cell phone batteries, laptops, and so on. No battery technology is what you would call "safe". It's more of a "managed risk" type of thing[/size]. Just like putting gas in your car. Even when you do everything right, that gasoline has been known to catch fire while pumping gas. Same deal with any type of rechargeable battery, stock or not. Nothing is safe in this world, but by arming yourself with knowledge and skill you can make things "safer"...
I'm not talking to anybody specific here because I don't feel like figuring out which name to respond to and the posting this name, then that name, and keep doing that back and fourth to direct my points to those that brought a point up, so you can figure out what questions were asked or points raised that I'm giving my opinion on. Must be at least 4 people who all brought up points I thought were good conversation that I wanted to throw my two bits in on, and I don't feel like going back and seeing who's name is what and posting each name to each point, so you can figure out on your own if I'm sharing my two cents on a point you raised or not. Too much work to figure out who said what in this excellent conservation on batteries in this thread...
To anybody out there who is thinking of making their own pack or buying their own charger to charge one. For sure do NOT mess with this stuff unless you are well versed and educated in it! You are FAR better off to buy a ready made pack for a device with a matching charger. Then you don't have to know proper amp charging rates, risk shorting a pack if you need to install a different plug on it, risk burning out a device because you used a pack with too much voltage (too many cells), and so on. Just not playing with that risk if you don't know exactly what you are doing, how to solder, and so on. But, even if you are using the stock pack and charger for your machine, don't treat it like it's perfectly safe. In fact, while I've never had a problem with lipos, I have had problems with nimhs or nicads when charging them. I've had them go nuclear on me and be a major fire risk due to one issue or another, but these issues are ones that lipo chargers protect against (like individual cell monitoring against overcharge) that nimhs or nicad packs don't. ALL battery types, I don't care what kind, have various risk factor variables depending on type of chemistry. None should be considered safe IMO, but just like gasoline with common sense and a few precautions the risk can be held to a minimum. Even if you do everything right, with any battery type, ALWAYS charge in a fire proof place like in the middle of a cement floor away from anything that a spark could jump to or an explosion (or venting) could travel to and catch on fire.
A few minor points about the video and such...I see you went to Deans plugs. While I use those in my high amp RC applications, they are needlessly robust (and large) for the low amp draw of metal detectors (my GT is well south of 1 amp and in the 50 to 60ma range). There is good reason why tiny JST plugs like the one you removed from that pack are used. It's not just about saving weight in say an RC plane or something (that has low amp requirements well within the ability of that smaller plug), but also because there is less risk for a potential short. Deans, as good as they are, still have bigger openings for the contacts, and thus I have heard of them being shorted by accident when carried in a pocket or something where say your keys are, which is never a good idea for any type of plug anyway, Deans or not.
By using the stock JST plug on my lipos in my GT's 8AA alkaline holder, not only am I not risking a short when changing the plug (and 1 wire should ONLY be done at a time for that for people out there to avoid such a short...attach it to the new plug first, shrink wrap the wire, and only then cut the next wire to change to the new plug. If you cut both wires at once for one thing they causes a split second short between them, and also you risk them shorting together while you are soldering them to the new plug)...Anyway, what I was saying...By using the stock tiny JST plug I'm also able to tuck that plug out of the way should I ever want to run 8AA cells in the alkaline holder again too, so that's another bonus IMO.
Just like you, I opted for lipos for my detectors over nimhs or nicads. Not only to save weight (and yet with much higher capacity) because lipos are about the lightest battery on the planet, but also because they can be found far cheaper than many other battery types these days. I've had more problems with nimhs and nicads over the years but zero problems with lipos, only because I know how to handle them. Despite proper care for nimhs/nicads, I still had a few packs go nuclear on me.
On the point of lipo applications, the reason why they aren't used in certain devices (much) is due to a few things. First, they don't have a hard outer protective shell to stand up to severe abuse, and also thus are easier to cut or puncture by accident as well. Second, lipos should never be drained below 3V per cell (or 9V in a 3 cell series pack) or it may ruin the battery. Now, that doesn't mean it's necessarily a fire risk if it is drained lower, because I've read the proper disposal of lipos is to drain them dead completely by way of a car taillight buld or something (be careful not to hook it up to something that drains more amps than the pack is rated to handle) until it is completely dead. Then, you are supposed to cut the leads (one at a time and don't short them!) and then put it in a bucket of salt water for about a week to insure it's completely dead. After that I *think* they are not considered toxic so they can be thrown in the trash, [size=large]BUT confirm all this on your own because I've only researched that once when I had to dispose of a few packs, so I MIGHT HAVE IT WRONG...Don't trust any of what I'm telling you. Seek out advice to confirm on the web![/size] Anyway, so my point is that if that is true...IF it is true...Then draining a lipo below 9V is probably not dangerous, it just means you probably destroyed the pack. I have had lipos drain below 9V when I had a plane stuck in a tree for a few days on a couple of occassions. I recovered those packs and they worked fine, but this I KNOW some say is RISKY, so once again don't follow my advice on that either!
Even if it's not dangerous (?) to drain a pack below 9V, it for sure will probably ruin the pack.You're right about the charge rate. It's not that many hours by the looks of the capacity of the pack and the amp rate you set the charger to. Charge times all depend on your amp rate. Find out what your pack will handle and do not go above that or you risk a fire or worse. I normaly charge at 1C (if the pack will handle that), even if the pack will allow 2 or 3C charge rates. Not only to be safer, but also because I feel it's easier on the pack. At 1C (about an hour's charge), a pack will take about that long when it's been drained down to say just above 9V. However, the charge time will be shorter if the pack hasn't been drained all the way to 9V. Somebody said the pack will charge less than an hour at 1C because the pack is never drained past 9V (shouldn't be ever if you are watching your voltage or have a high enough low battery alarm built into your detector (meaning from the factory it came that way) on your detector to sound off before 9V is hit. If your machine doesn't sound the low battery alarm before it hits 9V then either use the low battery buzzer he shows in the video or watch your voltage some other way (such as on the screen where some detectors will display it). Anyway, a pack drained to 9V will still take around an hour to charge if you charge it at 1C (and make sure you can charge at 1C). The capacity the pack is rated for is not based on what is below that 9V. It's rated for what is above it, so a 2500ma pack when drained to around 9V will still charge to around 2500ma if the pack is good. In fact, often they charge much higher capacity than the label on the pack says, just like nimhs or nicads, if the cells are in good condition.
You mentioned a 3 cell lipo is 11.1 volts or something. In reality a 3 cell series lipo is 12.6V at full charge. Perfect for most metal detectors if they run on an 8AA series battery pack. Lipos also hold their voltage higher than nimhs or nicads during discharge, so in fact a smaller capacity lipo can potentially run a detector longer than a stock nimh or nicad pack of a somewhat higher capacity. For instance, I seem to get longer run times out of my 3 cell 750ma pack than my stock 1000ma nimh pack. Now, if lipos are so small and light why didn't I shoot for a higher capacity than the stock pack, like say 2250ma (very popular in the RC plane crowd) and still save some weight? Well, because I customized my GT with a light weight shaft and such to save as much weight as possible. I saved about 1 and a half pounds on the stock weight, and never did I even touch the control box. The only mod to "box" was the 8AA battery holder that comes out of the machine. And for that I just installed the JST plug in it to plug the lipo in, and should I want to sell the machine down the road I can easily cut that plug right out of the holder, and should I ever want to use 8AAs in it again I can just move that tiny plug out of the way. I was shooting for max weight savings, trying to shave every single ounce, so that's why I opted for a 750ma pack. Who really needs more than 20+ hours of run time anyway between charges?
Some of the perks of lipos...Fast 1 hour charge rate (if they are rated for that) without pushing the pack and shortening it's life span. Lipos have almost zero discharge sitting on the shelf, unlike other rechargeables, so months later a pack is still ready to go at pretty much full capacity. The less weight, smaller size, and various sizes and shapes you can get them in is also a bonus.
I wouldn't use that low battery buzzer you had in the video if the machine's own low battery alarm will sound off above 9V for a 3 cell pack (if that's what is right to use on a machine, some detectors run on something other than an 8AA series pack voltage...running a 3 cell in a detector that is not meant to take that much voltage (8AAs) will probably burn it up, so make sure you guys out there know that part too of what you need to know, and if you didn't know that then don't take on a project like this, because you need to learn MUCH more than that to do things as safe as possible). But anyway, if the low battery alarm on a detector sounds off above the 9V for a 3 cell (if used) on a machine, then the low battery buzzer you used is needless. You might forget it's plugged in and drain the pack below 9V and ruin the battery.
OK, that's all I got to say for now. More than I should probably
, but I'm just making sure people are aware of the risks of messing with customizing a detector by making your own battery pack for it and using your own charger. And, as said, [size=large]don't trust my advice on anything. Always get your knowledge from numerous trusted sources and then decide what to believe from there. And even if you do everything right and know what you are doing, you can still have a pack blow up or catch on fire or something even worse! And I'm talking about even stock nimh or nicad packs for detectors, cell phone batteries, laptops, and so on. No battery technology is what you would call "safe". It's more of a "managed risk" type of thing[/size]. Just like putting gas in your car. Even when you do everything right, that gasoline has been known to catch fire while pumping gas. Same deal with any type of rechargeable battery, stock or not. Nothing is safe in this world, but by arming yourself with knowledge and skill you can make things "safer"...Actually the buzzer sets of at 9.9V so 3.3 V per cell...
Also the only power the buzzer will drain is from the led and I can asure you that you could actually have it hooked up for 1 year and still it wouldn't drown the battery. Anyway whites detectors have a low voltage advise at 8V that means that you don't want to wait for it to go off otherwise some serious damage may occur.
I am no long writer, but I can tell you that I have never seen a Dean short, not once. Now obviously the smaller plugs would have worked since the detector doesn't draw much current at all but I don't like the smaller plugs and there was enough room to install the deans and that is what I did.
Anyhow I did this video just to show that it is not hard to make your own battery pack for the whites detector, it just a matter of taking some time to do it ( I made it in about 35 min) and once you have it done you have a great performance for a great price, but most important you are helping preserve this planet by not using Alkaline batteries.
Also the only power the buzzer will drain is from the led and I can asure you that you could actually have it hooked up for 1 year and still it wouldn't drown the battery. Anyway whites detectors have a low voltage advise at 8V that means that you don't want to wait for it to go off otherwise some serious damage may occur.
I am no long writer, but I can tell you that I have never seen a Dean short, not once. Now obviously the smaller plugs would have worked since the detector doesn't draw much current at all but I don't like the smaller plugs and there was enough room to install the deans and that is what I did.
Anyhow I did this video just to show that it is not hard to make your own battery pack for the whites detector, it just a matter of taking some time to do it ( I made it in about 35 min) and once you have it done you have a great performance for a great price, but most important you are helping preserve this planet by not using Alkaline batteries.
Critterhunter
New member
This should be my last novel, as I think I covered it all already more than once...
Again, some of these points are only for people looking into this and not addressed to you're video or anything. Obviously you know what you are doing.
Couldn't agree more. Rechageables are a great money saver and also better for the planet and such.
As low of the amp draw of that led is, there is still an amp draw there. If the pack gets down to near 9V and you put the machine away in storage somewhere for a long time, eventually that led is going to dip the voltage below 9V. The amp draw of an RX and servos is pretty low in RC too, (but higher of course), but if a plane is near LVC and sits in a tree for a few days it will drop the voltage below 9V. I've had it happened more than once, and on RXs that shut off the motor for sure so there is no falsing when they lose TX contact with your remote control. Same deal with the servos. Blocks out jitter with lost TX contact, so the amp draw is pretty low...But not as low as that led of course. But very low in respect to the capacity of a good lipo pack. Just saying if that buzzer is left plugged in and the detector put in storage, sooner or later the buzzer comes on, which means more amp draw, and that pack will go below 9V. How long that will take? Who knows without measuring the amp draw, but sooner or later it will happen if nobody noticed the thing sounding off in storage or something. Not saying it's not a good idea to use. Just saying people better make sure they remember to unplug it just to lesson draining the lipo too far which could ruin it.
Didn't mean to come across at knocking your video if I did. Not my intent. Just offering a few of my own views on stuff. Of course others may differ. Most of the content of my messages wasn't even intended for you, but rather people exploring the idea of doing stuff like this themselves. That's why I'm trying to make it very clear to them that it can be very dangerous if you don't know exactly what you are doing. But so is driving a car or pumping gas like I said. Nothing is ever safe, but risk can be limited by knowledge and skill, so it's up to people to learn on their own from many sources before they even think of a project like this.
Yes, as I said...it's up to people to know the low battery alarm point of their machine. If it's above 9V then no need for a buzzer add on. Or, if the machine doesn't have a low battery alarm but does have a voltage display (such as some analog detectors that use the meter to show voltage, or a computerized detector that might only sound low battery below 9V but will show the actual voltage of the pack)...Then if you are careful to check your voltage often there shouldn't be a need for the buzzer, but if you think you'll forget or you can't read the voltage on the meter/screen of the detector, then for sure use that buzzer. Or, you could time your usage and figure out how long you can run the pack without hitting 9V by knowing the amp draw of the machine. Or, you could just check the voltage after say 10 hours of hunting time and see if it's still high. Use it another 5 and check it again. Perhaps risk another 5 hours to make it 20 hours total and check again. I wouldn't push it too far though because you risk going below 9V, but then you'd have an idea of how many hours roughly you can hunt between charging. That's still risky though, so I'd undershoot it a good bit. Even though my GT will sound off at 10.2 volts or so, I still charge my lipo about every 10 hours just so I don't run out of power on a hunt. Gives me piece of mind that way, but I also have another lipo handy should the first die on me.
Lipos are just as idiot proof as lithium ion for the most part. Pleny of plug-n-charge simple chargers for lipos out there. Many don't even have a switch to set the amp rate, because they already have a built in super low one. Just have to make sure the pack can be charged at that high of set rate. But, just as simple, many simple lipo chargers will say have a switch on them that says (for instance)...".250 amps (that's POINT 250 amps), .500 amps (thats POINT 500 amps), 750amps (point again), and say 1.2 amps. Or, they might be listed as 250ma (meaning without the point in front of the number), which is the same thing as above...250 millamps, instead of saying ".250 amps" (POINT 250 amps)....Both mean the same thing. Now let's take the pack. Say a 1000ma 3 cell lipo that has a charge rating of 1C. What do you set the amp charge rate at? Well, since the pack is rated 1C charge ability, that means you can charge it as high a 1 amp (or 1000ma). So you would not use the highest 1.2 amp setting of the charger. The fastest rate you could charge it at on that charger is the 750ma setting. At that setting it will take about 1 hour and 15 minutes to a half hour or so. Simple as that. Plug it into the 3 cell balance socket (called a Molex plug) on the charger and off it goes. Some chargers want you to press a start button, while some will just auto start once the pack is plugged in. Some know the cell count because you plugged it into the 3 cell plug, but still others want you to set a switch to 1, 2, 3, 4 cells, or so on. Many these days use that switch setting as double insurance, and then will refuse to charge the lipo if the switch cell setting doesn't match the voltage the charger is reading from the pack as an added saftey feature.
I use a computerized charger myself that will handle nimhs, nicads, lead acid, lipos, life, A123 cells, lithium ion, and a few other types I think. I can also set the amp charge rate at 100ma increments, so I can set it to exactly what I want for a given pack. But to charge all these various battery types, this charger is computerized with a screen, and so you have to know how to set various things to adapt to various battery types. NOT for the novice, as setting this stuff without understand what it does and how it should be set could be a fire hazard or worse. Cheap charger though. Dirt cheap in fact, but I won't name brands here because I don't feel it's appropiate for me to do so in this particular thread.
Now, many of these lipo chargers are only meant to run off around a 9 to 15V DC power source or so. For that reason many in RC run them off their car or truck they drove to the flying field. You can charge packs many times before risking causing the car battery to go dead, but many start the car after a few charges just to be safe, as a weak car battery could drain fast. Many of us fly one plane while we have 2 or 3 lipos charging off the car battery at the same time, so we can always be flying with one pack while the next one in line is charging, and the one behind that is charging too, and so on.
If you don't have a 12V car battery to run one off of, there are cheap DC invertors you plug into your wall at home. You just have to be sure the inverter is in the right voltage range that charger wants, and also to be sure the invertor can handle the amp draw of the charger in it's specs.
One other note of importance and then I'm done. Too much typing today even for me. Do NOT confuse the C ratings of a pack. There is a C rating for it's charging rate (max rate you can charge it), and there is a C rating for the max amp draw the pack can supply to whatever it's powering. For example, a typical 2000ma 3 cell lipo might say 1C charge rate, 20C amp ability. That means you can charge it at 2 amps (1C, or 1X capacity), and you can power say your plane with 20C ability of the pack. 20 X the capacity of the pack (which is 2000ma) = 40,000ma, or in other words 40 amps is what the pack is able to deliver in amps. Well beyond the amp needs of a detector. Most detectors only need less than an amp that I've ever checked the amp draw on.
Now, one more thing...Don't confuse the capacity of the pack as it's amp delivering ability. That's just the # used to figure out the amp delivering ability and the charge rate ability. The capacity's true meaning is how long the pack will run something. I hear people get confused about this all the time and think a 2000ma pack will burn up their detector because it only came with a 1000ma pack. No, the capacity of the pack is just how long it will allow you to hunt between charges. It doesn't supply more amps to the detector, as the detector (like any device) will only draw the current it needs and nothing more. You could have a battery the size of a house in capacity and it won't blow up the thing it's powering...SO LONG as the voltage is the same. Meaning, the main thing you need to worry about in using your own packs is that the voltage is not above the voltage the device you are going to power it with wants. For instance, a 3 cell series lipo is 12.6V when fully charged. Well within the tolerance of most detectors that run on 8AA batteries in series. Now, if you were to run a 4 cell lipo (16.8V) in that device then you have a very good chance of burning it up due to over voltage. Using too high a voltage will eventually burn a device up if it's way out of the window it wants to see in DC voltage.
One minor other point concerning nimhs and nicads. I've seen many worry using them in a detector will give it less performance, because nimhs and nicads are 1.2V per cell versus 1.5V for regular batteries. Nope, truth is most detectors these days (if not all of them) use a voltage regulator in them to keep the voltage constant to the circuit board so they run stable. So, it doesn't matter if the voltage is 10V or it's 12V, if the voltage regulator is an 8V regulator then 8V is all the circuit board ever sees. They do this to stabilize the circuit board otherwise your machine would constantly drift out of tune while the battery drains. For that reason nimhs or nicads (say 8 of them to replace your regular 8AA non-rechargeables) will NOT give you less performance. And, in fact, a good 2500ma or higher nimh AA these days will give you more run time than most store bought non-rechargeable batteries. Just doesn't make sense to not use rechargeables these days IMO. Saves you a bunch of money. If you don't want to mess around with a complex charger just but the one that often comes with 4AA rechargeables at walmart or such. Then you don't have to worry about amp rates or anything because the charger is meant for those batteries sold with it. But, that still doesn't mean it's safe. Always charge in a fire proof place, regardless of if the charger came with it or not. Any battery poses a risk.
One more tiny tip- Nimhs and nicads self discharge when sitting on the shelf, so if you haven't charged the pack in weeks or months it might be too low to power your detector for very long. Either top off the charge right before you hunt if the pack has sat for a while, or there are now low self-discharge nimhs on the market that claim to hold their charge near full for months without needing re-peaked. Some are better than others at that, so research and find out which ones passed the tests done on them.
OK, that's all I got to say. [size=large]I know these were long posts but I feel battery safety is of PRIMARY importance at ALL TIMES. Don't muck with this stuff if you don't know what you are doing. Just use packs and chargers meant for your machine specifically. And once again don't trust my advice. Always seek confirmation from numerous sources you can trust, because you could very well burn your house down, get injured, or start a fire or worse. Hope this helps...[/size]
Hey, once again excellent video. Nicely done!
Again, some of these points are only for people looking into this and not addressed to you're video or anything. Obviously you know what you are doing.
Couldn't agree more. Rechageables are a great money saver and also better for the planet and such.
As low of the amp draw of that led is, there is still an amp draw there. If the pack gets down to near 9V and you put the machine away in storage somewhere for a long time, eventually that led is going to dip the voltage below 9V. The amp draw of an RX and servos is pretty low in RC too, (but higher of course), but if a plane is near LVC and sits in a tree for a few days it will drop the voltage below 9V. I've had it happened more than once, and on RXs that shut off the motor for sure so there is no falsing when they lose TX contact with your remote control. Same deal with the servos. Blocks out jitter with lost TX contact, so the amp draw is pretty low...But not as low as that led of course. But very low in respect to the capacity of a good lipo pack. Just saying if that buzzer is left plugged in and the detector put in storage, sooner or later the buzzer comes on, which means more amp draw, and that pack will go below 9V. How long that will take? Who knows without measuring the amp draw, but sooner or later it will happen if nobody noticed the thing sounding off in storage or something. Not saying it's not a good idea to use. Just saying people better make sure they remember to unplug it just to lesson draining the lipo too far which could ruin it.
Didn't mean to come across at knocking your video if I did. Not my intent. Just offering a few of my own views on stuff. Of course others may differ. Most of the content of my messages wasn't even intended for you, but rather people exploring the idea of doing stuff like this themselves. That's why I'm trying to make it very clear to them that it can be very dangerous if you don't know exactly what you are doing. But so is driving a car or pumping gas like I said. Nothing is ever safe, but risk can be limited by knowledge and skill, so it's up to people to learn on their own from many sources before they even think of a project like this.
Yes, as I said...it's up to people to know the low battery alarm point of their machine. If it's above 9V then no need for a buzzer add on. Or, if the machine doesn't have a low battery alarm but does have a voltage display (such as some analog detectors that use the meter to show voltage, or a computerized detector that might only sound low battery below 9V but will show the actual voltage of the pack)...Then if you are careful to check your voltage often there shouldn't be a need for the buzzer, but if you think you'll forget or you can't read the voltage on the meter/screen of the detector, then for sure use that buzzer. Or, you could time your usage and figure out how long you can run the pack without hitting 9V by knowing the amp draw of the machine. Or, you could just check the voltage after say 10 hours of hunting time and see if it's still high. Use it another 5 and check it again. Perhaps risk another 5 hours to make it 20 hours total and check again. I wouldn't push it too far though because you risk going below 9V, but then you'd have an idea of how many hours roughly you can hunt between charging. That's still risky though, so I'd undershoot it a good bit. Even though my GT will sound off at 10.2 volts or so, I still charge my lipo about every 10 hours just so I don't run out of power on a hunt. Gives me piece of mind that way, but I also have another lipo handy should the first die on me.
Lipos are just as idiot proof as lithium ion for the most part. Pleny of plug-n-charge simple chargers for lipos out there. Many don't even have a switch to set the amp rate, because they already have a built in super low one. Just have to make sure the pack can be charged at that high of set rate. But, just as simple, many simple lipo chargers will say have a switch on them that says (for instance)...".250 amps (that's POINT 250 amps), .500 amps (thats POINT 500 amps), 750amps (point again), and say 1.2 amps. Or, they might be listed as 250ma (meaning without the point in front of the number), which is the same thing as above...250 millamps, instead of saying ".250 amps" (POINT 250 amps)....Both mean the same thing. Now let's take the pack. Say a 1000ma 3 cell lipo that has a charge rating of 1C. What do you set the amp charge rate at? Well, since the pack is rated 1C charge ability, that means you can charge it as high a 1 amp (or 1000ma). So you would not use the highest 1.2 amp setting of the charger. The fastest rate you could charge it at on that charger is the 750ma setting. At that setting it will take about 1 hour and 15 minutes to a half hour or so. Simple as that. Plug it into the 3 cell balance socket (called a Molex plug) on the charger and off it goes. Some chargers want you to press a start button, while some will just auto start once the pack is plugged in. Some know the cell count because you plugged it into the 3 cell plug, but still others want you to set a switch to 1, 2, 3, 4 cells, or so on. Many these days use that switch setting as double insurance, and then will refuse to charge the lipo if the switch cell setting doesn't match the voltage the charger is reading from the pack as an added saftey feature.
I use a computerized charger myself that will handle nimhs, nicads, lead acid, lipos, life, A123 cells, lithium ion, and a few other types I think. I can also set the amp charge rate at 100ma increments, so I can set it to exactly what I want for a given pack. But to charge all these various battery types, this charger is computerized with a screen, and so you have to know how to set various things to adapt to various battery types. NOT for the novice, as setting this stuff without understand what it does and how it should be set could be a fire hazard or worse. Cheap charger though. Dirt cheap in fact, but I won't name brands here because I don't feel it's appropiate for me to do so in this particular thread.
Now, many of these lipo chargers are only meant to run off around a 9 to 15V DC power source or so. For that reason many in RC run them off their car or truck they drove to the flying field. You can charge packs many times before risking causing the car battery to go dead, but many start the car after a few charges just to be safe, as a weak car battery could drain fast. Many of us fly one plane while we have 2 or 3 lipos charging off the car battery at the same time, so we can always be flying with one pack while the next one in line is charging, and the one behind that is charging too, and so on.
If you don't have a 12V car battery to run one off of, there are cheap DC invertors you plug into your wall at home. You just have to be sure the inverter is in the right voltage range that charger wants, and also to be sure the invertor can handle the amp draw of the charger in it's specs.
One other note of importance and then I'm done. Too much typing today even for me.
Do NOT confuse the C ratings of a pack. There is a C rating for it's charging rate (max rate you can charge it), and there is a C rating for the max amp draw the pack can supply to whatever it's powering. For example, a typical 2000ma 3 cell lipo might say 1C charge rate, 20C amp ability. That means you can charge it at 2 amps (1C, or 1X capacity), and you can power say your plane with 20C ability of the pack. 20 X the capacity of the pack (which is 2000ma) = 40,000ma, or in other words 40 amps is what the pack is able to deliver in amps. Well beyond the amp needs of a detector. Most detectors only need less than an amp that I've ever checked the amp draw on.Now, one more thing...Don't confuse the capacity of the pack as it's amp delivering ability. That's just the # used to figure out the amp delivering ability and the charge rate ability. The capacity's true meaning is how long the pack will run something. I hear people get confused about this all the time and think a 2000ma pack will burn up their detector because it only came with a 1000ma pack. No, the capacity of the pack is just how long it will allow you to hunt between charges. It doesn't supply more amps to the detector, as the detector (like any device) will only draw the current it needs and nothing more. You could have a battery the size of a house in capacity and it won't blow up the thing it's powering...SO LONG as the voltage is the same. Meaning, the main thing you need to worry about in using your own packs is that the voltage is not above the voltage the device you are going to power it with wants. For instance, a 3 cell series lipo is 12.6V when fully charged. Well within the tolerance of most detectors that run on 8AA batteries in series. Now, if you were to run a 4 cell lipo (16.8V) in that device then you have a very good chance of burning it up due to over voltage. Using too high a voltage will eventually burn a device up if it's way out of the window it wants to see in DC voltage.
One minor other point concerning nimhs and nicads. I've seen many worry using them in a detector will give it less performance, because nimhs and nicads are 1.2V per cell versus 1.5V for regular batteries. Nope, truth is most detectors these days (if not all of them) use a voltage regulator in them to keep the voltage constant to the circuit board so they run stable. So, it doesn't matter if the voltage is 10V or it's 12V, if the voltage regulator is an 8V regulator then 8V is all the circuit board ever sees. They do this to stabilize the circuit board otherwise your machine would constantly drift out of tune while the battery drains. For that reason nimhs or nicads (say 8 of them to replace your regular 8AA non-rechargeables) will NOT give you less performance. And, in fact, a good 2500ma or higher nimh AA these days will give you more run time than most store bought non-rechargeable batteries. Just doesn't make sense to not use rechargeables these days IMO. Saves you a bunch of money. If you don't want to mess around with a complex charger just but the one that often comes with 4AA rechargeables at walmart or such. Then you don't have to worry about amp rates or anything because the charger is meant for those batteries sold with it. But, that still doesn't mean it's safe. Always charge in a fire proof place, regardless of if the charger came with it or not. Any battery poses a risk.
One more tiny tip- Nimhs and nicads self discharge when sitting on the shelf, so if you haven't charged the pack in weeks or months it might be too low to power your detector for very long. Either top off the charge right before you hunt if the pack has sat for a while, or there are now low self-discharge nimhs on the market that claim to hold their charge near full for months without needing re-peaked. Some are better than others at that, so research and find out which ones passed the tests done on them.
OK, that's all I got to say. [size=large]I know these were long posts but I feel battery safety is of PRIMARY importance at ALL TIMES. Don't muck with this stuff if you don't know what you are doing. Just use packs and chargers meant for your machine specifically. And once again don't trust my advice. Always seek confirmation from numerous sources you can trust, because you could very well burn your house down, get injured, or start a fire or worse. Hope this helps...
[/size]Hey, once again excellent video. Nicely done!