Picketwire
Well-known member
What is your opinion? Is it the ultimate test for the best detector in nails? Do you think it has flaws? Defend you opinion.
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Since the Nail Bard Performance Test is my offering based on an actual in-the-field encounter over 27 years ago, and I have used this test ever since in evaluating prototypes detectors and coils as well as a wide-range of detectors I have owned and also used in some very nasty Iron Nail contaminated ghost towns, homesteads, and military forts and camp sites, I think I can offer up some worthy 'opinions' about the NBPT and the results I have seen, made by me and by many others who have used this 'test' in their own detector & coil evaluations.What is your opinion? Is it the ultimate test for the best detector in nails? Do you think it has flaws? Defend you opinion.
There are two positions for the coin. One of the positions is obviously "thought up". Is the test only valid for four sweeps because the second position is not an actual "in the field encounter"?Any change in the samples or in their orientation can, and will, alter the results we might get. However, I believe the best 'test' would be something that is an actual representation of an in-the-field encounter and not simply some thought-up or imagined sample of good and bad targets in a random orientation
Your eyes are the best discriminator. Why didn't you just pick up the coin?Also on top of the ground were other pieces of ferrous and non-ferrous objects, and one of those just happened to be an Indian Head Cent
I see Mr. Southern used a copper penny, not an Indian head one, to test the Vista detectors. Does this cast doubts on the validity of his test? What about the test with the half dime?most of those are people who have acquired a NBPT 'kit' so they have an exact position and orientation of the actual conditions.
In my opinion this is a better test but why the "made up" 1" distance that makes this no longer a test "based on an actual in field encounter"?It is interesting that you asked this particular question about my NBPT because I am trying to learn my new phone to get good photos of my NBPT in the original setting snd in both of my 3-D set-up with a measured 1" between the Nail Board with Nails and the Coin.
They are in the business to sell metal detectors and can see that your influence can help sell and also cause consumers to not buy certain detectors including White's and Tesoro.I also got a NB to Garrett, Nokta / Makro and White's (a few years before they folded up).
• I wouldn't say it was "thought up" for the #2 position. The Indian Head Cent was located (observed) in the #1 position. That made the four Iron Nails and the Indian Head Cent an actual in-the-field encounter.There are two positions for the coin. One of the positions is obviously "thought up". Is the test only valid for four sweeps because the second position is not an actual "in the field encounter"?
• A person COULD use an Indian Head Cent to be close to the actual encounter I had. But ....I see Mr. Southern used a copper penny, not an Indian head one, to test the Vista detectors. Does this cast doubts on the validity of his test? What about the test with the half dime?
• The NBPT is a legitimate 'test' because it is an actual duplication of what was encountered. However, some folks think it isn't 'fair' because it is two-dimensional and not three. So, to make all future 'tests' consistent that I do, I used 1" corks on all four corners to separate two Nail Boards. That way all of the Coins in a #1 position are consistent and it is used to learn, and demonstrate, how that 1" separation with Coin higher and Nails lower, or with Nails higher and Coin lower, can have a dramatic effect on performance. Naturally, some detectors and coils are going to out-perform others in this evaluation, and for me and those who like to take on the challenges of similar old, ferrous-littered sites, it is a good way to know what detectors and coils and settings might work in our favor to help unmask good targets in tougher environments.In my opinion this is a better test but why the "made up" 1" distance that makes this no longer a test "based on an actual in field encounter"?
• Whatever 'influence' I might have on the various detecting Forums might or might not help them sell detectors. I felt it would be good for them to have a uniform, and let me say 'official', Nail Board for their own use. The benefit in my view isn't directly for them to sell more detectors. But indirectly, if those manufacturers could make a detector and coil that performs very well on my NBPT, then it would be a detector and coil that would be of great interest to me, as well as many other avid detectorists who also like to take on the challenge of a very Iron Nail contaminated sites.They are in the business to sell metal detectors and can see that your influence can help sell and also cause consumers to not buy certain detectors including White's and Tesoro.
• Anyone with a NB can put anything over it they would like, except a metal garbage can lid, and walk around it and approach it from any direction. Use multiple detectors and coils and note the exact directions where some units produce a good audio hit and check it with a different model and coil. See how many can match or better the results they might get with a Tesoro using a 6" Concentric or 7" Concentric coil. They won't find many, but it will be 'educational'.Don't get me wrong, I think this test is a useful one and another fun one to try. I would suggest putting a cover over it and circling 360 degrees around it. or using a bent nail or two which is much more likely in the places I hunt with nails.
• Hey, nobody is an 'expert' and ever since I started in thi great sport I have committed myself to always be learning. I want to learn more, always refresh my memory of things I have learned in the past, and do what I can to share my detecting education and experiences with others to try and help them in whatever way I can. It's a really great sport and there are endless challenges out there for us to deal with, and each detector circuitry design can behave different from other makes and models, even if they seem to be similar. Coil changes also make a big difference, both by their size & shape and the type of internal design.That is my opinion but again, I am fairly new to metal detecting and do not claim to be an expert.
However, I believe the best 'test' would be something that is an actual representation of an in-the-field encounter and not simply some thought-up or imagined sample of good and bad targets in a random orientation.
I'll clarify what I am referring to since we are discussing 'testing' as it applies to a lot of people and detectors who are spread out all around the globe. ANY 'test' is simply a way for the user to better understand a detector's adjustment functions, audio tones and visual display with a metal target encounter. We can learn more about a detector's circuitry design to know the weaknesses or strengths it might have for different applications, and we can also learn more about a detector's better-performing sweep speed, and what is functional if it is a little faster or slower than optimum.How would the "best test" be a situation that will never be exactly encountered by another person when every target is found in a random orientations?
Yes, all of the Nails and Indian Head Cent were, and on my NBPT are, in the exact orientation and Yes, they were all flat of the ground surface.Even you think the test is valid when held one inch above the coin which is not an "actual representation of an in-the-field encounter". Weren't the nails and Indian head penny in a random orientation when you found them. Weren't you standing in a random location when you found them and decided to position the lines on the test? Why is this test better than one "thought up" or "imagined"?
If I know I am going to work a dense bed of closely-positioned Iron Nails, I will want to have one of the my favorite detectors in-hand. Often, through the many years since July of '83, I tackled such conditions with one of my favorite Tesoro's. Because they had proven to me their abilities in tough ferrous conditions, aka 'best performance afield' , and i was confident how they would perform based on that from the summer of '83 until summer of '94, and confirmed their abilities with my NBPT from then to the present which is a 'best test' .Aren't scientific tests "thought up"? I am pretty sure that anyone can find an actual "in the field encounter" in the nail beds they detect and I am also pretty sure they will see the Tesoros shine in this situation if they have one.
That's what ALL 'testing' does, to help any individual learn what they have and how to get the most out of it ... while also learning any short-comings.I guess I see the "best tests" are ones that pertain to the person detecting and how to do better with what they have than telling them this is the best because my test says so.
In any 'test' we might do, if we alter the orientation or size or shap4 or position of the good or bad targets we are also going to alter to potential results. Especially if you change the size or shape or position of a ferrous target because that metal hs a greater effect on the EMF than does a similar-size non-ferrous object.I don't see how using a bent nail or moving a nail to a different position makes your test less valid. I think raising the test above the coin is a great idea, especially if you raise it incrementally, not just arbitrarily setting it at one inch.
Okay, enough or this topic!! Time to move on to something different. I wish you were close to me here in Mid-West Texas and could attend one of my day-long classroom Metal Detecting Seminars. Attendees and I always learn something new or understand some things better.Thank you for disagreeing agreeably and taking the time to respond. I pray that your health improves so you can enjoy this great hobby like you used to. God bless
Thank you for moving on. I am here to learn and I don't believe that you have said anything on this thread that I haven't read from you before. What I want is for another expert or if you are not one, an expert to explain why they use different ones than you do in iron, kind of a trust but verify thing. If this is the ultimate test why don't all experts use the same thing in nails? That is what I am looking for. You made your case long ago. I want more information, thank you.Okay, enough or this topic!! Time to move on to something different.
I am sure you can get another experience, avid detectorist to join in with their suggestions or recommendations for testing in iron nails. That is what you hope for, someone with experience.What I want is for another expert or if you are not one, an expert to explain why they use different ones than you do in iron, kind of a trust but verify thing.
There is no "ultimate" test, but to have any 'test' be useful and comparable, it must be consistent. My NBPT is. There are other 'tests' that use nails and I have tried many of them.If this is the ultimate test why don't all experts use the same thing in nails? That is what I am looking for.
Well I'm glad I could help in any way I could and I also look for other people too offer up their suggestions of how to do tests that would help an individual select the better detector and coil and settings to handle similar challenging sites. As I've mentioned, I have five different detector models with the coils I find work best on them, and they serve me well in the challenging sites I hunt. I hope you can also select detectors that handle your needs to bring you satisfying results.You made your case long ago. I want more information, thank you.
My personal opinion is that just about everyone in this great sport ought to own at least one good, reliable Tesoro model. Biased, yes, but that because they work so well for so many applications for 38+ years now. Oh, I have other detectors that I really enjoy using, and they have some3 of that nifty 'mod3ern' stuff like visual TID eith VDI read-outs and Audio Tone ID ... but for all these many years I have made sure I had at lest a couple of favorite Tesoro's at-hand. Six? That's a nice number. I'm down to only three of my favorites. A pristine Bandido II µMAX and Silver Sabre µMAX that are at the ready for any adventure, and a very clean Silver Sabre µMAX that is a constant-carry companion in my vehicle for any opportunity that shows its face. All three wear a 6" Concentric coil.Monte, at your advice long ago i purchased a Tesoro. Today I have 6 of them.
Those who have attended one of the Welcome-to-Hunt Outings I've hosted in Northern Nevada and Eastern Oregon ghost towns know what we are discussing when I related the very dense ferrous debris in many parts or them, and quite a few learned that what they used, detector & coil, fell a bit short on performance so they grabbed something different from their vehicle, or made sure they attended the next WTHO with better-performing equipment for tough Iron Nail and other touch conditions.If I was hunting for my life in heavy iron nail situations, it would probably be what I would use. I have seen other people with lots of experience that use different detectors, which I do not have, say that their detector, which you have passed by is better than the one you recommend. It is like doctors, I want a second opinion and then decide which is more valid for me.
Just remember that when I make most forum posts they are to answer an individual's particular question or comment, but they are really directed to any and all readers who have the same ponderings but often remain silent. And yes, some of my comments were to 'defend' my NBPT, but were really to point out that any or all 'tests' we want to use for comparison purpose need to be duplicates rather than random suggestions. Remember, we should select detectors to handle the task-at-hand because not all detectors to all things well. Of the 5 models I use, they are all very good for the Iron nails and similar challenges I typically encounter. However, if I set out to hunt an old house or structure site where I might encounter a small, hidden stash of coins (which I have dons several times this past half-century) I would not use some of the models that fail to hit on a shot-stack of silver coins I use as a 'test' sample. That is 5 Walking Liberty Halves stacked on top of a Silver Dollar, with bare metal contact. Many are surprised how some of our 'modern' detectors can't do that in their Discriminate mode .... or know why they can't.I truly am thankful for your replies and am sorry for taking so much of your time which would be better used helping others than defending your test. If someone else responds why their's is better, I will quote you to let you know there was a response. Once again, sir, thank you for your time.