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Ni-Mh batteries and Ni-CD charger?

darkmark1967

New member
Hi all, I wanted to know if I can use my sovereign charger, 12 volts, Ni-CD to charge a 10 cell pack of NI-MH batteries. I understand the charge will work out the same, 10 X 1.2 volts = 12 , but wanted to know if the charging is a different rate, or if there was any other compatibility issues?
Thanks for your time, Happy Hunting
Mark
 
The exact same sovereign nicad charger came with my Excalibur 2 that has 10 x 1.2v nimh batteries in the original pod so minelab seem to think its ok. Truth is a ni cad charger should change to trickle charge when it detects a 0.12-0.20mv drop in voltage, for a nimh this drop is 0.03-0.07mv so the charger will keep pumping in current even though they are full waiting for the 0.13-0.2mv volt drop so eventually they may be ruined, having said that the amount of charge the charger puts out is 0.5amp max so its little more than a trickle charge, as long as you don't leave them on for days it should be ok.
When i used mine i used to do a 12 hour/overnight charge(apart from the first ever charge) at most and all is ok although i would suggest you get a proper nimh charger like i did.

Critterhunter is more clued up on batteries than i am,(i'm still learning from him) and i would think he will comment an correct me if i'm not 100% correct.
 
Yep, you're right. Here's how it works- A nimh or nicad charger (not a lipo charger, though....they terminate when the cells rise to a certain voltage level of 4.2V per cell) detects when a pack has "peaked" by monitoring the voltage level. Once voltage starts to fall by a certain level of m/v per cell (called a threshold setting) the charger knows the pack has reached it's peak and is now dropping in voltage slightly with further charging. This drop is slight for nicads but it's even smaller for nimhs.

What that means is that charging a nimh pack on a nicad charger might not terminate the charge when it's reached it's peak because the nimh pack didn't drop enough in voltage to trigger the charger to stop. Truth be known many nicad chargers probably will shut off the charge even with the slighter voltage drop of the nimh pack but this is VERY risky to trust. Overcharging can ruin the pack or worse cause a fire.

Another reason not to trust a nicad charger to charge nimhs is because nicad chargers often switch from a higher amp charging rate to a lower trickle charge (float charge) to maintain the nicad pack at full voltage while it sits. Some people like this feature because they can always have a nicad pack ready to go at full capacity because it won't hurt to keep it on the trickle charge for weeks at a time. This is PROVIDED that the charger and pack are matched correctly providing low enough of an amp rate that is meant to maintain the pack without treating it too harshly by using too much current. Often they provide just barely enough current for that size pack to keep it peaked at full voltage.

This is how a float charger works for a car battery that is designed to remain plugged in all the time to keep the battery peaked. This is very different than doing that with a normal charge rate, which would quickly cook the battery if the charger never shut off. I still wouldn't trust that feature on any charger or nicad pack unless you know specificly what that low amp rate should be. You can set this on computerized chargers but make sure you know what you're doing.

Too high to maintain the pack and you are slowly destroying the pack by overcharging it, even if it's at a lower than normal charge rate. Normaly a charger and pack that are designed to do this (be ready at all times) is closely matched to the proper pack size and charging rate. For example, one of those flashlights you leave plugged into a wall outlet so it's ready at all times in case of a power failure. I'd say most devices that have a battery that's always peaked use nicads. Nicads do not suffer any ill effects from having this low maintenance trickle charge to keep them at a ready state.

Nimhs, on the other hand, most people believe do not like to be put on a trickle charger once they've been fully charged. That may have changed in the last few years with newer battery technology but so far as I know it still holds true. Getting to my point, that's another reason why it's risky to charge a nimh on a nicad charger. Even if the charger detects the smaller voltage drop once the pack is peaked, some of these nicad chargers go into a trickle mode which can be just as harmful to the nimh. It probably won't hurt anything if it sits on this trickle for a few hours or so, but I'd be worried about leaving something like that alone for hours on end in my house. Don't trust it. Don't trust any charger for that matter. Always keep an eye on it while charging and keep the charger and pack in a fire proof place, such as in the middle of a cement floor or inside a metal box.

All that being said it's probably (but don't take my word for it!) safer to charge a nicad pack on a nimh charger, since the nicad pack will drop a lot in voltage once peaked and so the charger would for sure see this. The only precaution that is always the rule when charging for that matter is to make sure your not charging any pack at a higher amp rate than what's healthy for the pack. A general nimh or nicad healthy charge would take about ten hours or so. One or two hour charging times or less are less healthy but OK here and there. Charging packs at anything less than an hour is for sure pushing the limits of abuse. Some batteries are said to be designed to do this and often sell with quick chargers, but they often won't get near as many cycles before going bad as charging them slowly at something in the 10 to 14 hour range. A good way to see if you are pushing a pack too hard with a higher charge rate is to put your hand on it off and on through the charging cycle. If that pack is getting more than luke warm then you are shortening it's life by charging it so fast. It should never be very warm or hot.

To confuse you even more here's one more thing...I'm pretty sure the wall charger for my Sovereign GT is just providing a DC voltage at a low amp rate. The actual charging circuit is I believe all inside the rechargable battery holder where the wall unit plugs in. For that reason different packs (nimhs or nicads) might have different charge circuits inside the pack it's self. Meaning, even if the wall "charger" says it's for Nicads it's really just a DC power source. The real nicad or nimh charger is inside the pack it's self.

All the above is just my opinion so don't take my word for it and end up burning your house down. Use at your own risk!
 
One other note: During the charge cycle a nimh or nicad pack will often dip a little (go backwards) in voltage, but then begin steadily climbing once again. This tends to happen more often in the first hour or so of the charge. That's the trick with chargers that allow you to set the m/v threshold setting. It needs to be just high enough to keep the charger from being falsley tricked into thinking the charge is done, but not set so high that the charge won't trigger it's self to shut off once the pack drops a bit in voltage when it's peak is reached.

This voltage drop isn't constantly falling once peaked. In other words, the pack will in general just drop so much in voltage and then stay right around that level regardless of the charger constantly pumping amps into it. You're charger has missed it's shut off trigger because the m/v setting was too high, and now you've got a potential fire on your hands or will at least destroy the pack if it is charged too long.

This is less of a risk with a low and slow charge rate, because even if the charger doesn't shut off the amp rate is so low (close to a trickle rate) that it probably won't overheat the battery even if it's still charging it for hours. That's another reason why a low and slow charge rate is better- it's less risky should the charger not shut off and it's sitting on it for a long time.

If the m/v threshold setting is set too low then now you've got a different problem. The charger will set terminate several times during the charge even though the pack hasn't peaked, due to the random slight drop in pack voltage as it goes through the charge process. I tend to set the m/v on my chargers low enough to put up with that, and just check the charger within the first few hours or so to make sure it hasn't shut off early. An easy way to tell is just to put the pack back on the charger. If it's already peaked then within an hour the charger will shut off again. If you still aren't sure stick it back on the charger a second time. It's rare for it to false peak a few times in a row. On the other hand, if the pack is hot it probably has peaked and you are overcharging it. It's only likely to get hot from overcharging if the amp rate is higher than say a 10 hour charge rate, though.

Normaly I set my threshold at 5 m/v per cell for a nimh and maybe 10 to 12 for a nicad. Most chargers consider this a "per cell" setting, meaning you put in 5m/v and they'll do the math for you for the total pack voltage drop that has to occur to terminate the charge. I've also found that a real slow charge rate (like 10 to 14 hours) might require me to adjust the m/v setting down a digit or two, or also might require me to raise it by a digit or two if I'm charging extremely fast like less than an hour. Higher charge rates will cause the per cell voltage drop to be increased and real low ones to decrease.

I would think that trying to charge a nicad pack on a nimh charger might cause this false termination without the pack being peaked, since I'd think nicads will drop more in voltage during the charge process as well like they do when peaked than a nimh. Putting the pack back on the charger two or three more times to make sure it isn't false peaking should correct that. Once it gets over that "hump" or dead spot in battery chemistry that is causing it to drop a bit in voltage it should continue to the end of the charge. Just be sure you are watching the thing and checking it's temperture with your hand. Again, keep it in a fire proof place and use this information at your own risk. Injury or fire could result and I don't have that kind of money. :biggrin:

That's most of what I know about nimh/nicad charging. Charge it slow most of the time. Once in a while a fast charge (about an hour or less) is healthy for it to break down resistance caused by crystals that form. Drain the pack completely dead two or three times a year with a car light bulb or something. Don't let a completely dead pack sit for weeks because the cell polarity can switch and now negative becomes positive and vise versa. If the pack seems bad drain it dead and then charge it fast (hour or less). Drain it again and then slow charge it for 10 hours. Sometimes that will recover bad cells or balance them if they are in different states of charge. Excercising a pack by draining it dead once in a while was the old tool used on nicads to prevent memory problems. Newer nicads don't suffer that fate from what I hear and neither do nimhs, but excercising a pack still helps it to flex it's muscles and thus hold more capacity which equals longer run times. In fact, it's a good idea to cycle a pack about 3 to 5 times when it's new. Charge it/drain it 3 to 5 times at a slow easy discharge and charge rate. If you have a charger that shows capacity you'll be surprised to see how much more it holds after this.

One more time...Use any of the above at your own serious risk of death, disaster, or other things most people find to be a negative. :bouncy:
 
Why does Minelab include the new excal2 with a nicad charger ? They do have nimh batterys. I just got mine and thought that was odd.
 
Read above....If the Excal has it's charging circuit inside the battery like the GT then that is what makes it a nimh charger and not the wall box which is just a DC power source, so far as I know.
 
I made a slight mistake above in terminology. There is a difference between say a car battery float charger and a car battery trickle charger. Both are designed to be used all the time to keep a battery at peak charge. Float chargers will monitor the voltage level of the battery and turn on to peak it back to top charge when the voltage drops a certain amount sitting. Trickle chargers will never shut off but rather keep putting a very low but constant current into the battery to keep it peaked. Both types use a very low amp rate.

Some nicad chargers have a trickle charge mode they go into after the pack has been normaly charged to keep it peaked constantly. Most devices that do this (like the wall flashlight) use nicads because they don't suffer from this low but constant flow of current to keep them topped off. Something like a cordless phone may have nimhs in it but they are more likely to use a float charger, in that once the battery is peaked it will monitor the voltage level and turn the charger on here and there to peak the battery back to full.

There might be devices these days using nimhs that only have a constant trickle charge on them instead of a float but I haven't heard of that. The old rule of thumb that nimhs don't like to have a constant trickle charge put into them might have changed in the last few years with newer battery chemistry but I don't know.

A trickle charger is using less parts than a float charger since it doesn't have to monitor the battery voltage to decide when to turn it's self on and off. For that reason I bet most cheap devices will use nicads or at least a trickle charge and not a float. Nicads are also a bit cheaper than nimhs these days since they are "older" technology, but from what I hear the adjustments in battery chemistry no longer makes nicads prone to memory problems.

Nicads (at least they used to) also have the ability to handle a real fast and hard charge rate more than nimhs, say when people want to charge them in maybe 30 minutes or less. That's why they are still popular among the RC crowd when people want to blast charge a pack real quick. Newer nimh technology might make them able to do this just as well these days. Fast charges of less than 30 minutes are possible with many nimhs and nicads but it's not very healthy to do all the time. Doing something like this once in a great while can be healthy though because it will break down crystals that form resistance in the battery chemistry which cause lower voltage output. Nimhs of the same capacity tend to be lighter than nicads as well.

One of the constant myths about rechargables is that they won't work well in devices because they only have an average full charge voltage of 1.2 volts per cell versus 1.5v for a normal store shelf battery. There's a few reasons why this isn't really true. For one, a fully charged pack will often show a much higher voltage than 1.2V per cell, often even higher than a store shelf battery. This is more common with larger capacity rechargable cells, like say 2000ma or higher AA batteries.

Secondly, many DC devices are designed to run at a fairly wide voltage input range. For example, if the device is designed to run on a 9V battery it more than likely will still work fine on anything in the 7 to 14v range with no problems. That's an average, though. For that reason even if a rechargable pack is outputting less voltage than normal batteries would the device probably will be just fine.

Many things such as detectors also have a voltage regulator that keeps the voltage constant. These are usualy what's called linear regulators and will take say a 12V power input and drop it to a constant 9V output to the device. For that reason trying to juice up the power of the device by feeding it more voltage than normal (I've heard many people think this would increase a detector's depth) won't do a darn thing because the machine is still only being fed a constant lower voltage. In fact, if you juice up the voltage input to something like this too high you're very likely to burn out the regulator.

These linear regulators usualy have a large heat sink of them that they use to expell heat caused by the excess voltage since that's the only way they get rid of it unless they are switching regulators, which are more expensive and a whole other story. They also will only work so long as the voltage is higher than what they are trying to output. If the voltage input falls to say just above 9V and it is trying to put out 9V the regulator will stop working. Switching regulators are vastly more efficient than linear because they don't waste the extra voltage by turning it into heat.

The other myth that always pops up is that rechargables will not give as long of run time as regular batteries. That used to be true back in the day but with the advent of higher capacity nimhs and nicads they often will give much longer run times than a regular store shelf battery. For instance, a 2500 Energizer AA nimh I use in my digital camera will give me about two to three times longer run time than a regular battery. This is also another reason why the lower averaged per cell voltage of rechargables isn't a big issue. The larger capacity of the nimh or nicad will tend to sag in voltage less than a regular battery so hold their voltage higher through the entire discharge cycle than a shelf battery. What this means is that at a certain point during the normal discharge of the battery the store battery is more than likely going to end up being much lower in voltage than the rechargable.

Nicads and nimhs will lose charge as they sit over time but nicads tend to hold their charge better than nimhs over extended periods of time. That may no longer be true about nimhs with newer chemistry make up. Either way, this is why it's important to top of a pack that has been sitting for days before using it. One of the big advantages of lipo batteries is they don't lose any charge on the shelf. Peak a lipo and a year later is should be just as fully charged for the most part.

One other thing about chargers- Many chargers will shut off current to the pack for a few seconds at a time about every few minutes during the charge cycle. They do this to allow the battery voltage to settle and offer a more true reading when the charge is turned back on. This can be confusing to some people if watching a display on the charger because you'll see the current go to zero and the voltage of the pack drop while the current is shut off for a few seconds.
 
I think GraveDigger already posted this link but check out this other thread. I just covered a good cheap charger and how to use it properly with your Sovereign...

http://www.findmall.com/read.php?21,1116497,page=1
 
Found a battery charger at onlybatterypacks.com that looks like it would be the one to charge up the nimh batteries on the Excal II. It's ID 11862 at this site. Anyone have any info on this or if this is the right charger? Good hunting. Thanks, John
 
If you mean it's specificly the one used from the factory on the Excal I can't say since I didn't look. If you are trying to go that route then fine, but if you do decide to buy an aftermarket charger just trust me and buy that Accucel 6. You'll never look back and you won't need another charger for years. This thing has the ability to charge various battery types that are so new that they aren't even known by most people yet. Keep your eye out for A123 cells because that chemistry will be the next wave in rechargables. They aren't as light as lipos but they are safer with a metal casing like a normal battery. A lot of power tools are starting to use them. They are basically lipos but with some finer adjustments in chemistry to make them real safe and able to stand up to more abuse such as faster charging or overdraining. I'd personaly rather use a lipo for several reasons but they'll make the average joe happy who doesn't know much about the care and feeding of batteries.
 
Thanks for all your help guys. The reasoning behind the circuitry being in the pack not the charger makes a lot of sense, and I think it was what I was struggling with. My intention was to slip 10 X 1.2 volt Ni-mh pencells in a 10 cell battery pack to get it up to 12 volts, but without the circuitry in the pack I doubt it would be safe. Looks like I'll look for a charging unit over here in the UK. Thanks again all,
Happy Hunting,
Mark
 
@ Joe(tx) yes i have one, got it for the excal batts i bought at he same place, charges the excalibur batteries in about 2 hours, i also got the Acucell 6 recomended by Critterhunter and its a far better choice at only $2 more(you get a $5 instant refund of your 24.99) very versitile and can charge almost any type of battery including lead acid
 
Critterhunter...Your knowledge of batteries is super. Might want to warn folks about the Lipos. I use them in radio control helicopters to power the electric motors. There's lots of warnings and even a video on the tube showing one being improperly charged and the resulting explosion and fire. One member of a RC forum admitted he had burned down his garage when a Lipo exploded. When I charge my Lipos, they are in a metal box. They even sell special fire proof bags for folks to use to charge their Lipos as you probably know. And...unless they get a good charger like you have and don't have a 'balancer', they also have a good chance of ruining the Lipo. Jim
 
Yea, lipos can catch on fire if overdrained, overcharged, or punctured. But other batteries can also catch on fire if mistreated in a certain way such as overcharging or shorting out. A lipo is really no more a risk than any other battery so long as it's treated the way a lipo should be treated. I also keep mine in a metal box and put that in my refrigerator so they "sleep" well when not in use for months. But, I also keep my nimh and nicad packs in a metal box as well. I don't trust them any more than other batteries. Most lipo chargers these days including the one I listed are balance chargers where they can monitor all cells seperately to avoid overcharging.

I've wrecked some planes pretty bad and bent the tar out of lipos and never had them go nuclear on me. In fact, they are still working fine. But, when something like that happens I always put it in a metal box or in the middle of a cement floor for a day or two to make sure it isn't going to do something. I've had nimh packs go nuclear on me from shorting out but never had a lipo give me a problem that I can think of.

They have such a high power densitity that they are roughly half the weight and twice the capacity of other batteries. That's why they are so popular in the RC plane world. It's almost like nobody outside of that hobby knows anything about lipos. Lack of experience or knowledge of how to use them keeps other fields from even knowing what a lipo is, let alone all the benefits they have. Things like they hold their voltage high to the very end of discharge, unlike other batteries. High amp ability (a little pack smaller than a pack of smokes can easily deliver 50 or 60 amps....Heck, I jump started my car with one!), fast 1 hour charge time or less, not draining while sitting on the shelf, and a few other advantages that are unheard of in other battery technology.

They are really pretty easy to use and very safe so long as you know a few simple rules and follow them. Just like gasoline. How many times a week are you pumping that stuff into your car? It'll kill you if you light a match, cause a spark, or pour it over something hot. So long as you follow a few basic rules with gas you'll never have a problem. Same deal with lipos.
 
darkmark1967 said:
Thanks for all your help guys. The reasoning behind the circuitry being in the pack not the charger makes a lot of sense, and I think it was what I was struggling with. My intention was to slip 10 X 1.2 volt Ni-mh pencells in a 10 cell battery pack to get it up to 12 volts, but without the circuitry in the pack I doubt it would be safe. Looks like I'll look for a charging unit over here in the UK. Thanks again all,
Happy Hunting,
Mark

It's fine to stick those in a battery holder with no circuit. It's only needed if using the stock wall "charger". It's better to just clip alligator clips to the battery leads on the outside of the pack you build and then charge with a good charger. I do that with the stock rechargable pack because I want to use my Turnigy charger and it can't bypass the charge circuit if just plugged into the normal charge port. Really if you are using 8AA nimhs or nicads in the regular holder (which should be fine so long as you get good high capacity cells like 2000 to 2500 or above) you can charge them that way too, but it's better to remove those once in a while so no carbon builds up on the battery tabs causing a short. I put spark plug boot grease (99 cents at Auto Zone) on the ends of my batteries and holder contacts. It keeps them from getting carbon build up and is meant for this sort of thing. It's dialectric grease, which I probably spelled wrong. Rather than solder up a pack for my plane transmitter I just installed 8AA nimhs into a holder that would fit inside the regular battery compartment. Since they aren't soldered together like the normal pack I used the grease there too because loss of power in the air would not be a fun thing. :yikes:
 
Well I have been following this thread. I see you can get the Turnigy 6 here for around 40 quid. That works out about 65-70 bucks. I may get one if I dont get my SunRay Supercharger sorted out, especially seeing that you can charge lots of different size packs/options.
 
Yea, you just buy some battery holders at Radio Shack (cheap) and use those to hold whatever battery type you want to charge. Much more versatile than buying a charger that's only meant to hold certain batteries.
 
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