Permission Denied...

[MarkCZ]

The reason I check first is that some towns in my area do require a permit, some don't. Knowing this, there are some laws specifically restricting metal detecting in some area towns. I just want to be sure before I go there.

I usually check the township websites for rules & regulations, but not all township websites list the park regulations, so I email those that do not, just to be sure. I have also found that some towns do not bother to reply to my emails. For those cases I am unsure what to do, but for now I concentrate on other areas (I have quite a few I have not been to yet).

All of the books say to "Always get permission"...

Just read the signs where the park rules are posted! if your questioned and ask to leave my police or park police tell them that you found the rules for the park sign and read them and you didn't see any restrictions for metal detecting and thank them and leave.
If you crawled under a fence,
broken a lock,
waded past no trespassing signs,
hunted on privet land without permission,
hunted with total disregard to posted rules that prohibit metal detecting,
Then you should be arrested! and somebody should make a bowtie for you out of your metal detector.

They are VERY old laws in the book in all states that were once for one thing but now they no longer apply, so asking about laws about metal detecting and not just looking yourself isn't a good idea. The city I live in has still has laws that state "All Four Wheeled Carriages Are to Be Tied To The Hitching Post" So, if they wanted to be legal!! and you car isn't tied to the parking meter they could fine you and toe your car off.

Here is another one that's pretty cool! (I've not checked for a long time but I believe its still on the books)
On Sunday and ONLY on Sunday its permitted by law to beat your wife on the Court House Lawn! I guess they felt if it was necessary for the husband to give the wife an attitude adjustment then it would legal to do so on Sunday, at the court house.


Mark

 

[mudpuppy]

Dude, it is a good question to post and always makes for great fun dialog, and it helps a whole lot of other readers that may be new to the sport overcome a potential hurdle to their enjoyment of it.....

Never fear asking these kind of questions, this subject is something that comes up a lot, and TIC is the resident expert on it..There will be at least 3 other guys post your same question before years end here...you should stick around and watch that fun, or jump on in with your experience and defend your beliefs... this sport has a guy examining all sorts of what could be perceived as 'moral' issues..from trespassing to returning lost items, digging in graveyards, etc...fun to hear and have a decent dialog in the argument from both sides.......this is an issue we have all dealt with, you asked about our experiences with it and you got them...no biggie, go diggie!
Mud

 

[MarkCZ]

Dude, it is a good question to post and always makes for great fun dialog, and it helps a whole lot of other readers that may be new to the sport overcome a potential hurdle to their enjoyment of it.....

Never fear asking these kind of questions, this subject is something that comes up a lot, and TIC is the resident expert on it..There will be at least 3 other guys post your same question before years end here...you should stick around and watch that fun, or jump on in with your experience and defend your beliefs... this sport has a guy examining all sorts of what could be perceived as 'moral' issues..from trespassing to returning lost items, digging in graveyards, etc...fun to hear and have a decent dialog in the argument from both sides.......this is an issue we have all dealt with, you asked about our experiences with it and you got them...no biggie, go diggie!
Mud

Mud's right, this topic and using shovels or other long handled digging tools in public places comes up pretty often.

Mark

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Good post. Kind of reminds me of the assertion that it's still on the books that it's forbidden to spit on the sidewalks in New York. Not sure if that's true or not, but let's just assume, for the moment, that it is. Ok, so if you go to the city and say "hi, can I please spit on the sidewalk?", what do you think they will be obliged to answer ?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Mark's right: Don't feel attacked or belittled. It was a fair question. Otherwise you wouldn't have asked it or posted of it. And it's a relevant part of md'ing discussions. So too will other md'rs (who are skittish) wonder the same things in the future.

Thus, sorry if I came across strong. Just trying to answer the point-by-point issues with a "let's be real here" attitude woven in.

 

[MarkCZ]

Good post. Kind of reminds me of the assertion that it's still on the books that it's forbidden to spit on the sidewalks in New York. Not sure if that's true or not, but let's just assume, for the moment, that it is. Ok, so if you go to the city and say "hi, can I please spit on the sidewalk?", what do you think they will be obliged to answer ?

What if any laws vintage or modern that's in books that could be twisted to "mean" or be "applied" to restrictive to metal detecting.

If detecting is or has been band in a public park then the premises should have signs stating so. Our city park has one area that is fenced in including a gate and a lock, if we find it open we hunt it, if we find some people in there working on setting up a show, we ask if we can hunt it. Otherwise we stay out, its not posted, but being fenced in and locked is a "Sign" in itself.

Going from park to park, from town to town and asking for permission slips to hunt the park is another major way to draw more than necessary attention to the hobby.
I've gone detecting in our park and found dug holes and the trash laying on the ground next to it, I don't like to have to waste my time cleaning up after another dead beat, but I do it to help keep a low profile of detecting in public areas.

Mark

 

[Tom_in_CA]

...What if any laws vintage or modern that's in books that could be twisted to "mean" or be "applied" to restrictive to metal detecting.....

You ask what laws (no matter how remote and "grasping for straws") could be apllied to restict metal detecting? Simple answer: Any law you walk in waving (or causing them to stop and think deeply to find), and say: "Does this apply to my metal detecting?". Then whatever law/rule they think applies, THAT is the answer to your question. Otherwise, gee, how ELSE do think they will "connect the dots" to answer your "pressing question" ?

 

[Abraham Zincoln]

I'm sorry I started this conversation.
I'm outta here!

 

[ironsight]

This is not rocket science!
If a park does NOT have 'NO METAL DETECTING' in their park rules OR their are no public rules posted, just pull out your detectors and go for it...no one is gonna get arrested..... possibly booted out of the park but not arrested.
Some of you are making a simple thing as detecting a park more complicated and paranoidal than it should be.

My 2 cents worth. Make those zincoln cents!

 

[Rick(ND)]

Like many say if it is a public area and there is not posted no detecting I will give it a try and I have really no problem other than maybe on a street boulevard in front of someones house as some feel they own it and in some towns they do too, but always explain what I am doing and if ask to leave I do with no problem.
Now a few secrets I have found over the years is do not carry any shovels or any real big tools in parks and school yards as this give a bad image right way. Also never go into a school yard when school is going on and go later in the evening, weekends or in the summer month when school is not going on. In parks and a few other places like some of the older churches is to go when not much going on and when you do start in places where you are not drawing attention to yourself, but you will aways have a few people seeing you. If the ares has a well manicured lawn you want to be extra care full when pinpointing so you can use a thin screwdriver or a brass probe to find the target and work it out of the ground. Now in some cases you will have to dig a plug, but make it as small as you can so it is hard to see where you were at in a day or so. Many of the clips I have seen posted sure dig some big plugs, but if in a park or such you don't want to dig those big ones, so learn to pinpoint good. I have my trash bag on and pickup my trash and others I see and if I notice someone really watching me I will go to the nearest trash can and empty my trash bag, so they can see I am helping clean up the park. I want to be polite to those asking what i am doing and even say this is a fun hobby and if we find a class ring we can trace down we like to return them to the owners as we get a thrill seeing their expressions of seeing something they though they never would see again.
What I find that is ruining this hobby is those that dig big plugs and not covering them back up, leaving the trash on top of the ground and having no respect to the public property and giving smart responds to those asking what you are doing. Also I see where some will argue with the grounds keeper and say they have every right to be there, this can and will get many places with no detecting signs up.
I have good luck detecting public places and don't remember the last time I was told to leave a park or school yard, but you have to use common sense.


Rick

 

[stasys]

So dont ask, just hunt, besides, it makes for a much better post If you ever do get bounced or arrested! Those are always hilarious experiences! Plus, they have internet access in Prison now a days, so you can still log in here and chat!...Good Luck!
Mud

More trouble more fun plus you will never forget new experience!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... Some of you are making a simple thing as detecting a park more complicated and paranoidal than it should be.......

Iron-sight, have you ever asked yourself why this is? I have. I have wondered where this "must grovel at city hall" notion ever got started. Because I came from the generation (mid 1970s), where no one ever even wondered that sort of thing. The thought never crossed our minds that we "needed permission". Oh sure, we had the "presence of mind" to not be in the middle of deep retrievals when busy-bodies were present, blah blah. And had the presence of mind to avoid "obvious historic sensitive monuments". But when it came to run-of-the-mill parks, schools, beaches, etc.... these worries never even occured to us. No one worried: "is there a permit ?" or "might it be illegal?", etc... So ask yourself: what changed ?

My theory is this: The human psyche of observing the following: Someone (especially a person hard-wired to be more skittish and cautious type) ...... reads or hears of a booting or ticket or hassles from someplace else. And in this internet age of lightening fast communication, it's not hard to find some story like this, etc... Eg.: such & such state parks require a permit", or "so & so got busted and ticketed at such & such city park in Ohio", blah blah. So no matter HOW FAR AWAY, or HOW REMOTE and isolated that may be, yet .......... human psychology kicks in. The skittish person says to himself, "gee, I don't want any hassles. I better to ask to make sure". Lo & behold, he gets himself a "no", where .... no one ever cared before. Hmmm, so he puts out that info for other md'rs (afterall, you want to alert your friends and buddies). Hence another "off-limits place" enters the rumor mill info jet-age. Others read of that, simply fueling their desire to "go ask in their particular locale" (afterall, you "can't be too safe", right?).

So you see the vicious circle ? It's the very fear itself, which merely becomes a self-fulfilling vicious loop! Rarely is it "others who left holes", or "cultural heritage", blah blah blah. OH SURE, those are the "go-to" answers that the desk-jockey gives, to justify the "no" he just gave you. But that fails to ask "what put it on his radar as something needing a decision/rule.... TO BEGIN WITH!?" It was the person there grovelling for his princely say-so. Thus eliciting the "safe answer". Aaarrggh, it's as if we md'rs can be our own worst enemy, eh ?

 

[MarkCZ]

.... Some of you are making a simple thing as detecting a park more complicated and paranoidal than it should be.......

Iron-sight, have you ever asked yourself why this is? I have. I have wondered where this "must grovel at city hall" notion ever got started. Because I came from the generation (mid 1970s), where no one ever even wondered that sort of thing. The thought never crossed our minds that we "needed permission". Oh sure, we had the "presence of mind" to not be in the middle of deep retrievals when busy-bodies were present, blah blah. And had the presence of mind to avoid "obvious historic sensitive monuments". But when it came to run-of-the-mill parks, schools, beaches, etc.... these worries never even occured to us. No one worried: "is there a permit ?" or "might it be illegal?", etc... So ask yourself: what changed ?

My theory is this: The human psyche of observing the following: Someone (especially a person hard-wired to be more skittish and cautious type) ...... reads or hears of a booting or ticket or hassles from someplace else. And in this internet age of lightening fast communication, it's not hard to find some story like this, etc... Eg.: such & such state parks require a permit", or "so & so got busted and ticketed at such & such city park in Ohio", blah blah. So no matter HOW FAR AWAY, or HOW REMOTE and isolated that may be, yet .......... human psychology kicks in. The skittish person says to himself, "gee, I don't want any hassles. I better to ask to make sure". Lo & behold, he gets himself a "no", where .... no one ever cared before. Hmmm, so he puts out that info for other md'rs (afterall, you want to alert your friends and buddies). Hence another "off-limits place" enters the rumor mill info jet-age. Others read of that, simply fueling their desire to "go ask in their particular locale" (afterall, you "can't be too safe", right?).

So you see the vicious circle ? It's the very fear itself, which merely becomes a self-fulfilling vicious loop! Rarely is it "others who left holes", or "cultural heritage", blah blah blah. OH SURE, those are the "go-to" answers that the desk-jockey gives, to justify the "no" he just gave you. But that fails to ask "what put it on his radar as something needing a decision/rule.... TO BEGIN WITH!?" It was the person there grovelling for his princely say-so. Thus eliciting the "safe answer". Aaarrggh, it's as if we md'rs can be our own worst enemy, eh ?

You know "Tom" I can remember in the mid 80's when the detector boom swept through our area, they're detecting clubs around and the monthly meeting place was the city park. They had club hunts regularly there and Nobody cared!!! the park board or otherwise!!! I have drove by the park back then on those warm falls days and they would be so many people detecting the park that at a distance it looked like bee's in a clover field, and Nobody cared! on one of those nice days you could drive by the Court House and see people swarming the lawn swinging detectors, same went for the larger High School grounds.
Nobody had a problem with it!
Nobody got permission!
Police were never called!
Nobody was ever ask to leave!

These properties are still owned and funded by the tax payers! they are public property!!
Now if drive by the same park on any given day its a rarity to see someone with a detector, I have but never more than two people!
There is NO detecting clubs around any longer and there hasn't been for a couple of decades now!

It seems as though some people in some places don't metal detect so why should anybody else? its this mindset that wants to find some excuse or some reason that other people shouldn't be allowed to detect! Its almost like the country's issue with guns, they are so many people that don't own guns, that don't see any need for them, so nobody should have them, so they deem them "EVIL" "Gun's Kill People"
I say be smart!
Read the posted signs!
Don't leave a mess!
Be Friendly!
Keep a low profile!

Just the other day I went to detect a local practice ball field and when I got there this guy was mowing the grass, so while he was on the mower I starting walking around and picking up the SPECTOR's left trash from the evening before, cups, cans, paper items, half eaten junk.. He started packing up so I struck up a little conversation with him, about how bad people are to just trash up a place and he said yea, its amazing! and most of all the cleanup is done via volunteers, I told him I metal detect and I see this all the time and that I always try to pickup after myself and even others if I need to. Now, what do you think his reply was to me detecting the area?? (I only spent maybe 20 minutes picking up) (No the property isn't posted)

I'll post back after while with that outcome.

Mark

 

[mudpuppy]

I'm assuming Metaldetective1975 was born in 1975...most of us came up in a different age than he did...We roamed wild and free, fought, carried knives to school, smoked, made fires, were out all night pursueing various fish, girls and critters, working and making our own money, running heavy equipment, killing people in far off lands at 18...This represents a societal shift, the attempted domestification of Men...to feel the need to live within the constraints of rules written and unwritten...its been pounded into them...as if thats the whole purpose and goal of their Life...

Anyway, I was saddened by his post, "Sorry I asked, I'm outta here"...If a few comments from anonymous electronic advisors like us who had HIS best interests at heart, and gave him the true dope on how we roll so easily dissuaded him from enjoying a hunt without permission or a permit that he felt compelled to instead of saying "Thanks Guys, for your wonderful freedom you have given me to enjoy my sport"...Or at the very least, "&%$# You guys!"

No,..it was incomprehensible to him for us to advise such, and we were written off as trespassers and reprobates....a fellow would think asking a question and getting an answer from some fellows that have 40+yrs of doing this would be enough to make a guy evaluate the slavery mindset of asking for 'permission' to hunt a public park, and then thank the elders and leave it at that...we missed this one somehow..Oh well, one more park for me I guess....If your still reading this thread, MD1975, just chill a bit and think some...then go hunt somewhere public you dont have written permission...you will feel really great I can assure you! It will have an added layer of excitement for you, and finding even a zinc penny will make your heart race!...then, come back here and post your finds, we are your biggest fans and only wish you the best...
Mud

 

[Goldstrike]

I think he 'quit' in my opinion, because of one overly critical posting. No names mentioned but yes Mud....I don't know how long he has been detecting and is still in the learning mode like all of us were and still are. If a newbie gets on here and gets what I think he perceived as 'shredded' for posting a question or observation, even though the responses may have been legit and correct, they will be more reluctant to post similar stuff. We ALL need to be a little more civil in how we respond to any question or observation, myself included.
What he posted has always been a red hot topic because it affects the hobby of metal detecting everywhere for all of us.
Now I await for my few comments to maybe get dissected, analyzed and criticized but I have thicker skin and have been around the metal detecting block a few times so I don't care but I do care for those just getting into this great hobby (including my grandkids now) and maybe not knowing what we know who have been in this hobby a long time.

 

[Goldstrike]

P.s. BTW Mud I was agreeing not disagreeing with your comments! It was not your posts I was referring to, it was someone else's posts

 

[MarkCZ]

.... Some of you are making a simple thing as detecting a park more complicated and paranoidal than it should be.......

Iron-sight, have you ever asked yourself why this is? I have. I have wondered where this "must grovel at city hall" notion ever got started. Because I came from the generation (mid 1970s), where no one ever even wondered that sort of thing. The thought never crossed our minds that we "needed permission". Oh sure, we had the "presence of mind" to not be in the middle of deep retrievals when busy-bodies were present, blah blah. And had the presence of mind to avoid "obvious historic sensitive monuments". But when it came to run-of-the-mill parks, schools, beaches, etc.... these worries never even occured to us. No one worried: "is there a permit ?" or "might it be illegal?", etc... So ask yourself: what changed ?

My theory is this: The human psyche of observing the following: Someone (especially a person hard-wired to be more skittish and cautious type) ...... reads or hears of a booting or ticket or hassles from someplace else. And in this internet age of lightening fast communication, it's not hard to find some story like this, etc... Eg.: such & such state parks require a permit", or "so & so got busted and ticketed at such & such city park in Ohio", blah blah. So no matter HOW FAR AWAY, or HOW REMOTE and isolated that may be, yet .......... human psychology kicks in. The skittish person says to himself, "gee, I don't want any hassles. I better to ask to make sure". Lo & behold, he gets himself a "no", where .... no one ever cared before. Hmmm, so he puts out that info for other md'rs (afterall, you want to alert your friends and buddies). Hence another "off-limits place" enters the rumor mill info jet-age. Others read of that, simply fueling their desire to "go ask in their particular locale" (afterall, you "can't be too safe", right?).

So you see the vicious circle ? It's the very fear itself, which merely becomes a self-fulfilling vicious loop! Rarely is it "others who left holes", or "cultural heritage", blah blah blah. OH SURE, those are the "go-to" answers that the desk-jockey gives, to justify the "no" he just gave you. But that fails to ask "what put it on his radar as something needing a decision/rule.... TO BEGIN WITH!?" It was the person there grovelling for his princely say-so. Thus eliciting the "safe answer". Aaarrggh, it's as if we md'rs can be our own worst enemy, eh ?

You know "Tom" I can remember in the mid 80's when the detector boom swept through our area, they're detecting clubs around and the monthly meeting place was the city park. They had club hunts regularly there and Nobody cared!!! the park board or otherwise!!! I have drove by the park back then on those warm falls days and they would be so many people detecting the park that at a distance it looked like bee's in a clover field, and Nobody cared! on one of those nice days you could drive by the Court House and see people swarming the lawn swinging detectors, same went for the larger High School grounds.
Nobody had a problem with it!
Nobody got permission!
Police were never called!
Nobody was ever ask to leave!

These properties are still owned and funded by the tax payers! they are public property!!
Now if drive by the same park on any given day its a rarity to see someone with a detector, I have but never more than two people!
There is NO detecting clubs around any longer and there hasn't been for a couple of decades now!

It seems as though some people in some places don't metal detect so why should anybody else? its this mindset that wants to find some excuse or some reason that other people shouldn't be allowed to detect! Its almost like the country's issue with guns, they are so many people that don't own guns, that don't see any need for them, so nobody should have them, so they deem them "EVIL" "Gun's Kill People"
I say be smart!
Read the posted signs!
Don't leave a mess!
Be Friendly!
Keep a low profile!

Just the other day I went to detect a local practice ball field and when I got there this guy was mowing the grass, so while he was on the mower I starting walking around and picking up the SPECTOR's left trash from the evening before, cups, cans, paper items, half eaten junk.. He started packing up so I struck up a little conversation with him, about how bad people are to just trash up a place and he said yea, its amazing! and most of all the cleanup is done via volunteers, I told him I metal detect and I see this all the time and that I always try to pickup after myself and even others if I need to. Now, what do you think his reply was to me detecting the area?? (I only spent maybe 20 minutes picking up) (No the property isn't posted)

I'll post back after while with that outcome.

Mark

The guy as he was leaving say's well helping to cleanup, there isn't going to be anybody say anything to you for metal detecting.
I went on over the next three days to find, over 300 coins, for a total of just over $30.00

Mark

 

[robez509]

Mud needs his own syndicated column. Always a good read!!

 

[ironsight]

I started detecting in the late '70s, a time of pure detecting heaven with abundant silver and very few detectorists.
I think whats going on these days with some and our hobby in general is a combination of things in no specific order:

1. Regulation crazy politicians justifying their phony baloney jobs by reacting to some vocal minority.

2. Political Correctness gone wild is/has destroyed the country. Some may think its not politically correct to dig in public areas reverting to no. 1 above.

3. The younger among us were brought up in a time of strictly enforced ever increasing laws. As mudpuppy succinctly put it, we were brought up in a time of more freedom and liberty. Very few NO TRESPASSING signs back then compared to now. Just about all the areas we used to 4-wheel in are now off limits. If i did the things today i did back when i was 18 i'd be making license plates in some State facility. lol

4. Way too many lawyers and law suits these days. People greedily look for free money with lawyers more than willing to accompany them. This country needs to reform the entire perverted law suit system we have today. How about loser pay Court costs and the defendant's lawyer fees for example.

5. Crime. Politicians don't know how to cope with increasing crime so they pass even more laws some un-related to crime just to show they're doing something. This might also have an effect on people seeing complete strangers in their neighborhood park yielding large digging knives.

6. For some reason people today are losing their tolerance to others. Every little thing seems to bother some people to the point they contact their politicians or police.

7. Lets be honest here, the popularity of detecting these days via goofy detecting TVshows has increased the number of detector sales thus increasing the visibility to the public some of which are not tolerant of seeing people digging in their precious little neighborhood parks.

8. As someone mentioned the internet has a way of blowing things out of proportion. Someone getting arrested for detecting somewhere is sure to raise some eyebrows.

Having said all that, none of the above will deter me from detecting a park with no publicly posted rules regarding 'no metal detecting'.
Even today with all the crap going on i can say safely say i've never been kicked out of a park or in some cases denied permission.
The OP'er left... out of here, his or her loss is all i'll say.

.... Some of you are making a simple thing as detecting a park more complicated and paranoidal than it should be.......

Iron-sight, have you ever asked yourself why this is? I have. I have wondered where this "must grovel at city hall" notion ever got started. Because I came from the generation (mid 1970s), where no one ever even wondered that sort of thing. The thought never crossed our minds that we "needed permission". something needing a decision/rule.... TO BEGIN WITH!?" It was the person there grovelling for his princely say-so. Thus eliciting the "safe answer". Aaarrggh, it's as if we md'rs can be our own worst enemy, eh ?

 

[chuck ky]

when the easy silver disappeared so did the hunters. between 1971 and the 1980's every time I went to or by a park there were 5 or 6 people hunting. today I rarely see anybody and then its only one. they think its no fun to find clad. I have seen a few more new people lately but its still only one at a time.