Point of No Return

[SeniorSeeker]

Point of No Return

 

[Johnnyanglo]

It's like a man out in the sea who is drowning alone, and somebody throws one life preserver to him. If the man will lay hold of that life preserver, he can be saved,

It is important not to draw unwarranted conclusions from illustrations that are not derived out of Scripture. The underlying falsehood in the drowning illustration, which is often used by some to prove we must perform a personal work to 'receive' salvation, is that the Bible doesn't allow man the option of 'laying a hold' of salvation by his will or choice. This is taught each Sunday in churches everywhere, but it is not in harmony with God's teaching from the Bible.

The ability for anyone to receive the Truth and be saved, that decision, choice, ability, motivation, power is not within man - who is spiritually dead, but belongs solely with God and those He chooses to impart salvation upon.

Joh 1:13 who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God.

but if he refuses to take hold of the only link to the shore, he will perish without hope.

Again, this is error - the unstated assumption is that any man that choses CAN lay hold of salvation. That is what is taught today under the system of theology known as Arminianism (or the Arminian heresy). It is the man-centered teaching that has enveloped the churches wholesale, though in more studious and God-fearing times of the Church was denounced for the heresy it is. It steals the glory from God and empowers man - so that man becomes the King-maker in his salvation while the true King of Heaven can only powerlessly implore and beg His creation to 'choose' life. This scenario is very pleasing to the ear of man - but it is an affront to the Majesty and Power of God, besides being a purposeful distortion of God's word.

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (Rom 3:10-12)


There isn't a single person who ever lived that of their own desire, will, power, or inclination ever sought after God for salvation. All of mankind rejects God in their fallen state - all are of their father Satan and do his will. As unregenerate, we all hate the light and hide from it. All mankind apart from God's grace in salvation is in rebellion to God and possess a carnal mind that is at enmity with God. It fights against God, wants nothing to do with their Creator, and shakes their fist at Him.

We know therefore, that no man will 'grab hold' of the life vest no matter how many times it is thrown. Every man will refuse salvation if left to his own devices. This is important to understand if we are going to truly understand what salvation is (and is not).

In the same way, we are in this world, and the only way God can reach us is by the Holy Spirit. If we turn away from that Spirit and refuse to listen and obey, God will have to let us go and be lost.

Do you see the error in this illustration? If the drowning victim doesn't accept salvation then God gives up and they become lost. They BECOME lost? No, all mankind IS LOST, they don't become lost. There is nothing in man to accept salvation for he is blind, hardened in his heart, stiff-necked, dead to good works, and also without ears to hear and eyes to see spiritually.

For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost. (Mat 18:11)

It is because man is lost that the Lord Jesus Christ had to come to take the punishment that would have been meted out upon God's elect. By being that substitutionary Lamb, those that Christ became the propitiation for, those that He paid the sin-penalty are bought by God with a great price and are then able to be translated out of the dominion of Satan and into God's Kingdom, becoming a child of the Most High.

I am the Good Shepherd! The Good Shepherd lays down His life on behalf of the sheep. (Joh 10:11)

A proper illustration of salvation would be Lazarus - four days dead and stinking. That is mankind's spiritual plight before God - dead and stinking in sin. Then we find Lazarus alive and coming to Jesus, desiring to do His will. What happened? Did Lazarus reach out for God, accept Him and thereby release divine mercy? No! Rather, God reached out to Lazarus as the corpse he is and regenerated him to life - all by the power of God and not the will of Lazarus. Lazarus didn't reach for a life preserver - because he could not.

And you He made alive, being dead in transgressions and sins, in which you once walked according to the age of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit which is now working in the sons of disobedience (Eph 2:1-2)

For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Eph 2:8-10)

Likewise, for every man who God the Father chose to redeem from eternity past, and gave the same to His Son, these WILL be saved (not one will be lost). Each one of God's elect has been numbered - God foreknew and loved each of these sheep, lost as they would be, and in the fullness of time, by the Power of the Holy Spirit, God regenerates their dead spirit to life, enabling their resurrected spirit to believe, hear, see and understand the things of God due to that life, so that henceforth we should walk in the path God had ordained for us to walk. We are therefore His handiwork - a new creation, not of our own works, not out of ourselves, but out of the faithfulness of Christ who covenanted with the Father to save a people for Himself, by which we now share having also now the mind of Christ as His new creation and inherit all the riches of Christ as adopted children into the family of God.

Far more glorious is a true salvation that comes from a Sovereign God in comparison to and over-against a man-centered works based theology widely taught as truth today but is anything but. No surprise then, for God's ways are not man's ways and His thoughts are not man's thoughts - are they?

john

 

[Mike from MI "Iron Brigade"]

Where ya from? Hope you stop by again.

God bless.

Mike

 

[Anonymous]

Unless God calls us to come by His Holy Spirit, through the prayers of loved ones and friends, for our salvation we cannot be saved! He does the calling and we do the answering when we hear, for by the hearing of the Word of God we are saved! No one is predestined to be saved or not saved! We each have that privilege to come or not to come when the Spirit of God urges us to come and be saved! By the confessions of our sins and turning away from sinning, willfully, we are saved by God's grace through the love of His only begotten Son, Jesus, as our Savior and Lord when we truly believe and accept Him for Whom He really is! No other way is there to reach our Heavenly Home of new Jerusalem City than through His mercy and grace by forgiving us of all our sins! John 3:16...For whosoever will may come and etc. and be saved by faith believing and by following the straight and narrow road of God by not sinning willingly again, but if we do we have an Advocate with the Father and He is Jesus! Whosoever will...means anyone and we are all born sinners in need of a Savior! May God Bless! Amen! Ma Betty

 

[Johnnyanglo]

No one is predestined to be saved or not saved!

A popular idea - but not a biblical one.

Consider a verse we've already looked at, and read it again:

And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world (Mat 25:33-34)

The Kingdom we enter is Christ's, and it is composed, as all kingdoms are, of people ruled over by a king. The people are God's elect who, in time, are translated out of Satan's kingdom and are then ruled by their new King Christ. That is salvation - and by this we inherit the kingdom, because we have an inheritance that comes from Christ and His death.

If God chooses us in Christ and seeks us and saves us who are chosen by the Father and given to the Son - then the idea that we chose God falls apart and with it the corollary that no one is predestined to be saved. For clearly, the Kingdom - made up of believers - was prepared by God from the foundation of the world. That is, before we existed God planned out who He would bring into His Kingdom. Salvation is not ad hoc based on our choice, which may be a surprise to many.

Let's be sure that God's election of those to salvation is based on His choice. The verse below teaches that the elect are chosen by God - it is His Kingdom and as Sovereign King it is His decision who will partake in it. Makes sense right?

And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. (Mar 13:20)

Let's be sure that the elect, chosen by the Father before the foundations of the world, are given to Christ for redemption. And the verse below teaches exactly that - which is in harmony with all Scripture, is it not?

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (Joh 6:37)

What the verse above does not say is that "some come to me and those that choose to come, I will not cast out". The verse is not ambiguous. Those given to Christ by the Father WILL come to Him and be saved. Why? Because they are pre (beforehand) destined (ordered) to be saved.

There is a marvelous order to God's salvation plan. God foreknew who He would save, and these same ones He predestined to be conformed to Christ.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom 8:29)

Consider this carefully, for Arminianism, and others, does not accept that God actually predetermines through His divine will (ordains) the exact people who are His chosen or elected ones. The Bible says God predestined to salvation those He foreknew - which implies that to predetermine an outcome renders that outcome certain, does it not? If the future salvation of people is known ahead of time by God, because He KNEW these people, not that God doesn't know the reprobate too, but God intimately KNEW His elect because they are special to Him. The knowing in foreknowing describes a picking out of the mass of humanity; prior to their creation mind you, those that God would show His love to. God does not foreknow the reprobate.

So, clearly we should be able to confess that those to be "conformed to the image of His Son", in being pre-ordained, are therefore absolutely certain to be saved. If it was not a certainty then God could not have predetermined their outcome. The outcome is certain because God's choice is immutable and He will bring it to pass.

...remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,' (Isa 46:9-10)

God foreknew those He choose in eternity past, choosing to show His love toward them and redeem them, and therefore fixed and settled by His will, He predestined them to be saved. But that is not all ...

Those fore-loved by God were then based on God's choice, preordained to salvation, and then called out of the mass of fallen humanity, and by the propitiation in Christ's sacrifice, these same ones are declared just in the Father's eyes. Christ died for these foreknown of God because these were the sheep given to Him to seek and save. And those foreknown of God are carried forward by the will of God until the end - where they are glorified with all the riches of Christ.

And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom he called He also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? (Rom 8:30-31)

All Arminians, and others, would do well to follow the unbreakable chain given by God: God foreknew those He would love. God predestined these to be saved in time. God gave them to the Son to die on their behalf. Then God called them out of the world and declared them just or upright (via the work of Christ) in His sight. And these same ones that began before the foundation of the world in foreknowledge, selected in love in the mind of God, are glorified at the last in the new heavens and new earth. Scripture cannot be broken - God's will cannot be broken, and the chain of salvation cannot be broken.

So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and he hardens whomever He wills. (Rom 9:1

We each have that privilege to come or not to come when the Spirit of God urges us to come and be saved!

If we were the king-makers, as you suppose, then God could not be also - it is either Him or us. If we decide for ourselves to be saved then God's urging for our salvation would often end in futility - since it ultimately the choice is not His. Therefore, God would have foreknown many who would turn to Him, but also many of those that He intimately and personally knew, with an intention to save because He loved them from the foundation of the world, would be lost.

Let's be clear - God is not capricious or arbitrary about anything, much less those that He foreknew with an intention to save. God is not subject to the carnal dictates of fallen man - the Creator of man is not subject to the will of man. This is why Arminianism was declared the heresy it is - it is an affront to the Majesty and Power of God. Yet, the churches teach the lie because the alternative slaps man down - and what prideful person want that? But God does have a remnant that worship Him in humility recognizing His Sovereign rulership over His creation.

The Scriptures speak with one voice - they will not allow man to have a sovereign will and make God bend to our wicked dictates. God patiently endures the wickedness of this world for one reason: To work out the bringing forth of His elect and the eventual saving of all of them, in the fullness of time according to His divine plan. Not one of His will be lost.

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? (Rom 9:22-24)

The vessels of wrath are the reprobate - they are not loved, that is foreknown, by God (though He knows them He does not personally show affection toward them). They are "prepared for destruction" - they are ordained by God for that destruction - no matter how the gospel is presented in their life, they will not believe, for God did not choose them to believe. Therefore, they have no covering for their sins - they are not the sheep but the goats - and the goats were not given to the Son to be saved. That is the reality of our present world - God is in charge, He calls the shots according to His will, and man has no recourse but to submit (which he will not do of his own will) or die in his sins and suffer the second death in the Lake of Fire.

On the vessels of mercy, God "prepared beforehand" that they will be glorified. But we already saw this that those glorified are the same ones God foreknew and predestined to be saved. So, God does not destroy the wicked for the sake of those He has throughout history been saving. He will not destroy the tares lest He damage the wheat - but the tares WILL be burned and thrown into the fire at the end of the world.

So, where is man's free will and his sovereign choice to be saved or not? It's nowhere to be found. Sure from man's perspective he can decide not to believe - but looking at the dynamics from God's perspective we see his rejection is ordained from the beginning. And likewise, a man's receiving the gospel is also ordained from the beginning.

... even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will (Eph 1:4-5)

You will notice that "in love" God predestined us -- the vessels of wrath are ordained for destruction but not predestined. Predestination is reserved for those God loves, whom He chose to save, whom He foreknew intimately and called by name. Because we do not know who will be saved we preach the gospel to all men. There are no visible marks on the vessels prepared for destruction, and so we do as we are commanded and if they reject the gospel, then we move on. God prepares His elect for salvation through regeneration so that they possess a heart of flesh (as opposed to stone).

Believers are Christ's emissaries going forth on His behalf - but though we plant and water, only those with the soil prepared beforehand by God will growth occur. Again, salvation is from God: His choice, His sacrifice, His Kingdom, His Love showered on who He wills and fallen man is both powerless to stop God from saving and unwilling of his own accord to be saved.

I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. (1Co 3:6-7)

If God left us to respond to the gospel - no one would. If God only 'urged' people to believe we would all die in our sins. We are worthless, unrighteous, evil snakes that despise God - we do not want His salvation, we do not understand our plight, we do not seek for God -- we do no good thing for there is no good thing in us. Yet, while we were wicked sinners hating Christ, Christ died to save His Father's loved ones - and make a people for Himself.

... as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one." (Rom 3:10-12)

Whosoever will...means anyone and we are all born sinners in need of a Savior!

By now, if we've read carefully and absorbed what God is saying, we suspect that "whosoever will" does not mean just 'anyone'. Can just anyone be saved because they will it? We've seen and should know by now that our will is subject to God's will so that apart from God's work upon us we cannot be saved.

Our first birth was not by our will or through our own creative powers - why would the second birth be different?

But as many as received him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (Joh 1:12-13)

Do you see that those that "believe on His name" and have therefore "received Him" are become the "sons of God". You should because that is what the verse is teaching. But also see that it is God that empowered these ones to believe, to receive Him and to become the sons of God. It is by God's power - our second birth is never by our will, for we are dead in trespasses and sins, salvation is "of God".

We did not choose God but rather God chooses us. We do not have compassion on a helpless God and thereby believe but God has compassion on helpless mankind and condescends to save some. This is the mercy of God towards, what else but, the vessels of mercy prepared beforehand for glory. The truth is simple yet divinely intricate - and it all fits together perfectly.

For He saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. (Rom 9:15-16)

I'll ask you: God has mercy on whom? Any one of mankind that wills? No, absolutely not! On whom then? On those that He chose to have mercy upon. Do not believe it simply because I say it - but believe it because God says it is so. Our will, our choice, our receiving, our believing, our faith . . . it is all a gift of God that comes via the work of God upon us. Not because we 'asked Jesus into our heart' or prayed some other prayer. It is not by our effort or works, we are chosen before we were born, before we did anything good or evil. It is because of God's 'work' (not ours) that in our regeneration (new birth) we are able to cry "Abba, Father", and seek the one who saved us.

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. (Rom 9:13-14)

God IS righteous in His judgments. He has the right to save some and not others and God can pass over the wicked, for He is under no obligation to save anyone. It is by His own Sovereign good-pleasure that He shows mercy. It is because He is a God of mercy that He wills to make a people for Himself out of the filth of fallen mankind and thus show forth that very mercy. We are His workmanship - before ordained by God from before the creation that we, who God foreknew with an intent to save, would be saved, and walk in the path of righteousness.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Eph 2:10)

So, clearly, though the gospel goes to all mankind it is only those that God, by His power performed via His regenerative act on their dead spirit, will believe and live. Let's conclude with John 3:16 and see if this teaches something different (can the Scripture be broken?).

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (Joh 3:16)

God loved this world, and then what? He didn't want the people in it to perish but have everlasting life. So what did He do? He gave forth His Son to die on their behalf and pay the sin penalty so they wouldn't have to. Is this verse teaching then, as some would have it, that the Lord Jesus Christ died for everyone in the world so that everyone in the world would not perish and everyone in the world would have everlasting life? No way!

In truth, Jesus prayed for the salvation of not only those currently believing on Him, but on all those who would in the future believe.

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; (Joh 17:20)

Then, was Christ praying for just anyone who might happen to believe out of the world, as some suppose? Was He praying that everyone in the world believe? Or was He praying for a certain select group be saved out of the world?

For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. (Joh 17:8-10)

So, did you get that (I've highlighted it for you). Everyone in the world is not the object of God's salvation. God loved the world in this manner: that whosoever believes would be saved. And who will believe? Those that the Father gave to Christ. Those are the ones that Christ prayed would come into His Kingdom. Not just 'whosoever' without regard to their persons, but whosoever believes, which are ONLY those that are ordained to eternal life.

Read the verse above again: Those given to Christ received the words and have believed - these Christ has prayed for, but not the entire mass of humanity, only for "those which Thou has given Me". The elect are the Fathers beloved, those that He foreknew, given to the Son, and these are the ones that by the power of God will believe.

Returning to John 3:16, "For God so loved the world" is not to be translated "so much" loved the world, but "in this manner" God loved the world. The word "so" denotes "in this manner or fashion" - and what manner or fashion did God manifest His love? By sending His Son to die for the elect - for these Christ came to save, and redeem out of the world and no other.

Recall, we've learned that God the Father chose a people, and gave that people to the Son. Thus, we who believe are those that were chosen. Not by our merit or good works but by God's good pleasure before we were even conceived, God chose us and ordained us to be saved. There is no room for a teaching that makes "whosoever" into an arbitrary indistinct group that just happens of their own accord to choose to believe.

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. (Joh 15:16)

In case someone is still resisting the word of God: Christ the Good Shepherd knows His sheep personally - they are those given to Christ by the Father and to these and these alone is eternal life given. So who will believe? None other than the sheep that hear and respond to the voice of their Master. And which sheep are these? Those that the Father chose, foreknew, predestined, called, and glorifies. The Scripture is in perfect harmony with itself, is it not?

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. (Joh 10:27-29)

and

I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. (Joh 10:14-16)

One Shepherd with one flock - both Jew and Gentile - all numbered together as one. The sheep "will listen to my voice" because they have been given spiritual ears to hear and regenerated so they can respond, believe, and join the flock of God. Christ does not call the goats or wolves in sheep's clothing. He calls those He personally knows, these that He knows by NAME, and these He leads into salvation.

To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. (Joh 10:3)

Can the Scripture be any clearer? Can God say it any more profoundly and plainly? Salvation is not our choice, it is not our belief that saves us, and it is not our decision for Christ or penitent prayer that saves - not even a little, no not at all. Salvation is not just a thing that happens when we do something, it is not applied willy-nilly to just anyone.

It is for the elect - His sheep, those Christ came to save, not the Jew only but all those the Father desired in eternity past. The mind of God is far different and more glorious than the works salvation designed by men. No doubt the man-centered view is appealing to many - but for those given ears to hear and eyes to see the gospel of Christ is a precious stone that one would sell all to obtain. The false gospel created by men to shield themselves from the truth of their helplessness before God is of no value. It is wood, hay, stubble fit for burning.

john

 

[Anonymous]

I disagree with you on that God did foreknow who would accept Jesus as our own personal Savior when drawn to Him by the Holy Spirit of God! None can come unless they are called, so when God's Spirit is calling to those who at the time are hearing the Word of God for salvation come by heering, hearing of the Word! The Spiriitual truth of God moves into our hearts and opens are deaf ears and blinded eyes to Spiritually hear and Spiritually hear the truth of God by His Holy Spirit drawing us unto Him! We have been given the will to accept or reject Jesus as Savior and are not predestinated to be special chosen ones of God before we confess our sins in full and accept Jesus as our own personal Savior, totally serving Him with love and gladness of who we are in HIm! Then after we truly are saved in Jesus by the sincere repentance of our sins and walk continually on His straight and narrow path of live then and only then we are His and are the called to do His works according to His purpose! By saying certain ones are predestined would leave many to keep on sinning and believing they aren't chosen by God to be saved!

Whosoever will may come and be saved but only by the urging and calling of God's Holy Spirit to do so and fully repenting of their sins and walking in Jesus' righteousness by being made holy as He is holy through our obedience and good works by His Holy Spirit!! You also err in your faith and reading of the Bible, the same as each of us err in some way or the other of the Scriptures for none of us have come into the full knowledge of God nor in Jesus' perfectness! We each see different areas of the Scriptures as looking through a glass darkly and only clears up for each of us as we draw closer and closer to God, Who then draws nearer to us by His Holy Spirit's teaching us as He indwells our souls! If we aren't Spiritually changed anew we are not saved....for 'tis Jesus' virgin birth, death and resurrection Who give us eternal life and not predestination.....which only means God knew before the World began, who would believe in His only begotten Son, as their Savior and Lord and who wouldn't!

God is a loving and fair God and Savior of our souls Who gives each of us a chance to choose or not choose! I won't argue with you and anyone else about certain Biblical Scriptures but I will argue if anyone says that Jesus doesn't exist and does not save through the calling of God's Holy Spirit by the washing of His Word and the shedding of His pure and precious blood that we MIGHT be saved and it is each one's choice to accept by faith or not! Faith comes by hearing, hearing the Word of God and when we hear and believe the truth of God, we are His elect and sealed by the Holy Spirit which only a human can break, for God will never leave nor forsake us but we can leave Him, but I believe if we truly are saved and have tasted the goodness of our Heavenly Father then we will not leave and be foolish sinners, again, in doing so! Writing in error of the Word will cause many to not believe that they, too, can be saved and then their blood will be on your hands! I pray for each of us to grow in the knowledge and wisdom of God's Word and where either of us err that His Holy Spirit will reveal the truth, plainly, to each of us and help us grow more wisely, day by day! We have a choice and I chose Jesus by the calling of God's Holy Spirit to me and to others, who were sinners, until coming to the light and accepting the truth of God's Word! I am very ill and sorry I am not quoting scriptures but I know of what I speak in the knowledge that I have for my good and for God's purpose! Amen! Ma Betty

 

[Johnnyanglo]

None can come unless they are called, so when God's Spirit is calling to those who at the time are hearing the Word of God for salvation come by heering, hearing of the Word!

The general call goes forth to all men - but who will hear and respond? And why do some hear and respond but others never do? The answer from God's word is that God must make the hearer's heart and ears circumcised - which is a way of saying they have applied the covenant promise to be redeemed. Apart from regeneration, the new birth, which is to be born from above - that is by God, their spirit cannot attend to spiritual things.

To whom shall I speak, and give warning, that they may hear? Behold, their ears are not circumcised, and they cannot listen. Behold, the Word of Jehovah is to them a reproach; they have no delight in it. (Jer 6:10)

Apart from God's work through the Holy Spirit in regeneration we'd in our uncircumcised fallen state, as heathens, reject the commandments of God. There is no one able to respond, because like Lazarus in the tomb, they are dead. No one seeks after God or desires Him - we can call all day but no dead man will ever come forth unless they are made a living being first. And to be sure, no one but God alone can resurrect the dead - both physically (which is the type) or spiritually (which is the reality).

O stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so you do. (Act 7:51)

But we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit from God, so that we might know the things that are freely given to us by God.(1Co 2:12)

But, as we remember from God's word - those that the Father foreknew in love, these were predestined for salvation. The Son will not lose one that He came to save - not one. Thus, God has numbered His sheep - each being regenerated according to God's timing. Each one WILL then hear the call to repentance, each one coming forth to live in sanctification, and eventually to be glorified.

God chose each of those He intended to save - these He WILL save and none other. We are predestined - that is, beforehand determined that it will happen, to become the children of God. Why? Because God is a God of mercy and it therefore was His good pleasure to do so. Our hearing does not save us or cause God to suddenly act, as some have supposed. Our hearing is the by-product of God's Sovereign act in regeneration that began in foreknowledge before the foundation of the world whence He chose us for salvation. If we hear it is because God has given us ears to hear and a heart to believe - and then we believe, not the other way around.

. . . according as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, in which He has made us accepted in the One having been loved. (Eph 1:4-6)

We have been given the will to accept or reject Jesus as Savior and are not predestinated to be special chosen ones of God before we confess our sins

You say we are not predestined to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself according to the good pleasure of His will. You say we are adopted to Christ when we chose to be saved by our own good pleasure by our own will after we have decided on our own to 'hear'. God says He chose us, you say we chose God. God says He makes the dead to live to eternal life, you say we make ourselves alive to hear and respond. God says we are specially chosen by Him from before the foundations of the world, you say He chooses those that have chosen Him, thus God chooses nothing and man alone does the choosing. God says we are spiritually dead and do not seek, hear, know, or want the gospel, you say we have a will ready to accept or reject Jesus as Savior.

Which shall we believe? The mind and teaching of man - a man centered and carnal doctrine or the mind of God that glorifies God and Christ? For those who care little for the mind of God, you can follow the dictates of your heart and do whatever seems reasonable in your sight, and I will follow the words of Life from the Lord.

There is a way that seems right to a man, but the end of it is the ways of death. (Pro 14:12)

Why the clamor amongst the churched today to declare that salvation is a decision made by them, that they have a free will to chose, that God does not interfere with the will of man, that man is not dead but only sick? Well, consider the heart of fallen man. Though we write 10,000 books and the churched read each one - it would avail nothing. The unregenerate do not have eyes to see the truth. They do not posses a spirit/heart that will receive it, nor do they want it. They will not repent and turn and live and so they will not be healed of their sin. Why? Because God does not save those that believe He saves those that He chose and predestined to salvation, which in-turn become the ones that believe. Do you understand the difference? These and ONLY these are the ones that God's love is showered upon. He opens their spiritual eyes and ears and takes from them their heart of stone and gives them a heart of flesh that believes readily with all eagerness.

Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said, "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them." (Joh 12:39-40)

What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened (Rom 11:7)

The churched can design their own salvation program (with the cart pulling the horse) and pretend that it is biblical. But, it is an illusion - a fantasy, for God is not mocked because men scheme and plot thinking to glorify themselves. The churches can teach that you have a free will, a spark of goodness, the ability to chose, but the lie does not stand when the Bible is opened and the Scriptures read that declare none does good, no not one. The churches can teach that God saves those that 'accept His free gift', and can make unbiblical scenarios where we must reach and take the gift first before we can be saved, etc. Rather, eternal life is a gift of God, and we do not reach for it. If we could obtain it apart from Christ then there would be no need for Christ to die. The dead reach for nothing.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (Eph 2:8-9)

Did you read the verse above where it says salvation is "the gift of God, not of works", and then in your head add "...to those who first chose God of their freewill"? What does it actually say? God says that our works, anything we do, is not how we are saved - our will, bloodline, how we live - none of it amounts to anything before God. Our works are like filthy rags. God says that it is by His grace, His unmerited favor toward us, while we were yet sinners and estranged from God, that He then saved us. How did He save us? He washed our sins away and renewed our spirit with the rebirth from heaven through the power of the Holy Spirit (regeneration), so that we are a new creation. There is nothing from man in any of this - no, nothing!

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost (Tit 3:5)

If we aren't Spiritually changed anew we are not saved....for 'tis Jesus' virgin birth, death and resurrection Who give us eternal life and not predestination..

There are only two streams of people throughout history - those that are chosen by God and those that aren't. The entire Bible is the story of those two groups and a Savior that came to pay the ransom for those whom God had chosen and given to Him. On the cross we see these two groups represented by two thieves - one died cursing God and the other turned to God for salvation. The one who believed was appointed to eternal life - and so behind the scenes God regenerated His spirit and that particular thief, being loved by God, heard Jesus (with ears to hear) and believed. The thief did nothing - his faith was the result of hearing and believing, his hearing and believing was the result of his regenerated spirit; his living spirit was the result of the Holy Spirit's work. And finally, the application of salvation was permitted only by the result of the death of the Son to redeem the Father's election. Lest we forget, the Father's election was determined before the world began based upon His good pleasure alone - not due to our belief, faith, acceptance of gifts, our prayers, or any other work you can dream up to steal the glory from God.

The Bible is clear - so let's be clear. The chain of salvation begins with God the Father and ends with God the Father. In between is God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. All these works are from God toward His sheep - never toward the goats, and not because of, or due to, our will, work, effort, faith, belief, trust, prayer, etc. Again, we do not chose God, He chooses us. Many don't like that idea - that God rules sovereignly apart from our council and input, but that is why men aren't the king they think they are - better to know it now then learn it later in the Lake of Fire. Selah!

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. (Joh 15:16)

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. (Act 13:48 )

Who will believe then? If we are willing to listen to God - He has not mumbled - so listen carefully: as many as were ordained by God to eternal life will believe! Will man again say, "Oh yes, we are chosen and ordained by God to eternal life" and then add "if we first accept Him by our free will"? No doubt you will if you lack the spiritual ears to hear, and much to your shame!

By saying certain ones are predestined would leave many to keep on sinning and believing they aren't chosen by God to be saved!

Man has many designs. Many ways to improve upon the mind of God. God designs His salvation program and men retort, "but that offends me" and then busy themselves rearranging things better to suit their carnality and avoid the offense of the gospel by seeking to nullify it. Is this a surprise? What do we know about the unregenerate? Do they seek God? No! Can they believe apart from God's work of regeneration? No! Will God regenerate them if they aren't foreknown and predestined for salvation? No! Will they cry out for salvation, seeking God, wanting to believe, but God will deny them? No they won't seek Him on His terms! Why? Because belief is the by-product of God's saving work - and it doesn't just pop-up willy-nilly by some imagined free-will, it is only manifest in those God is saving - and God ONLY saves those that He chose.

So, the unregenerate will keep on sinning - whether they hear of predestination or not. They sin because that is of their fallen nature and no new information is going to alter that. They aren't going to run away from God any further because of the doctrine of predestination. They are already children of the devil and solidly in agreement with him. But, since predestination is the FACT of SCRIPTURE, it is part of the gospel of Christ, and therefore MUST be taught to all men. Sure the true Gospel offends, is this news?

As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. (Rom 9:33)

Christ is the stumbling stone that the wicked stumble over, always have and always will. Christ is the Rock of offense because He opposes the vanity of man's fallen nature. There can be only one king - in the mind of the unregenerate they rule as kings having no need of this other King and His Kingdom. They as king-makers and will save themselves, perhaps throwing a bone to God for his assistance, but in the final analysis they remain as they were - arrogant! And being puffed up they will not accept the things of God - nor can they. This is the state of all mankind apart from God's Mercy - we have all gone astray - but to those the Father has condescended to pull out the dominion of Satan and translate into His Kingdom, these elected people recognize and humble themselves (by God's grace), just as the thief on the cross did (by God's grace).

... and "A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense." They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do. (1Pe 2:8 )

Yes, the unbelievers will stumble - and that is to be expected. Yes, the unbeliever does not care what God says. Yes, the unbeliever will invent their own God in their idolatry and create their own salvation program that keeps their pride intact. Yes, the unbeliever will, apart from God, go into the Lake of Fire prepared beforehand for them. Yes, they were destined to this end - so teaching predestination is only one more thing the unbelieving will side-step and deny, one more thing to stumble over, and thus increasing their judgment.

God is a loving and fair God and Savior of our souls Who gives each of us a chance to choose or not choose!

It is not loving for God to wait for us to chose Him knowing that we are not able to do so. You are consigning everyone to hell! You say we must have "a chance" to choose? Where in the Bible do you read that? What would be "fair" from God's vantage is if He took the whole lot of God-hating mankind (which would be everyone) and threw them all into the Lake of Fire out of His sight forever. That would be "fair"!

But God is more than fair His is Just and Merciful - His Justice demands the sin penalty be paid and His Mercy allows Christ to make the payment. If Christ paid our penalty then we do not pay it - it is not paid twice. That is why Christ died only for His elect - otherwise, should He have died for everyone, everyone would be saved!! And no, your objection that they must 'accept the gift' and whatever else is not biblical, it judicially has no bearing on our justification before God. If there is no sin remaining then their is no condemnation remaining. Whether you accept, reject, sit, stand - makes not difference in the court of God, you are judicially free of your sin and able to enter heaven. And no, there is not one unpaid 'sin of rejection' that Christ didn't pay. (Oh the sinfulness of man in his schemes). Truly, we all reject Christ prior to our salvation - if that sin weren't paid we'd all end up in hell. Christ paid for every sin - even rejection. Is it so hard to accept the truth of Scripture without needing to circumvent it? - indeed, if we are carnally minded, it is necessary and impossible not to (apart from Christ).

Writing in error of the Word will cause many to not believe that they, too, can be saved and then their blood will be on your hands!

You have seen the Scriptures - where is the error? Your replies are simply to state the opposite of whatever Scripture says and claim it is true because, to you, it is more fair? What is fair in your mind is an abomination to God.

And he said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God. (Luk 16:15)

The blood of the wicked is on their own hands - for they hear the words of God - and repent not of their evil. It is of no value to give the wicked a lie for a gospel message so that they WILL believe it. For there is nothing of God in lies - and therefore no power in a false gospel. Either we appease man or we please God - you can't do both. Either we offend God or offend men.

And blessed is the one who is not offended by me." (Mat 11:6)

I have witnessed to the truth of the Scriptures that some might believe - not by their works, but through the Mercy of God and the Faithfulness of Jesus Christ. Those that die in their sins do so because they love their evil way and are by nature children of the Devil. This is their inner-nature, and nothing external to them will change their wickedness - only the power of God. So, whether it is the witness of the truth of the Bible or the lies of Arminianism, regardless, the wicked will wallow in their wickedness until they die - that is, apart from God intervening (and only if they are His sheep will He intervene). But, it says volumes about us as professing Christians whether we are messengers of Light, which we are if we are true Christians. Or if we are messengers of Darkness who run when God has not instructed to run and speak what God has not told to speak. All must mark ourself carefully as to which camp we belong.

It is no small thing to oppose God - and it is worth our circumspection to determine if we are opposing God's word, and repent if we are! And if we do not care and believe rather whatever make us feel good, then we have our reward.

For to this end I also wrote, that I might know the proof of you, whether you are obedient in all things. (2Co 2:9)

Examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Or do you not yourselves perceive that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved? And I hope you will know that we are not disapproved.
(2Co 13:5-6)

Watch yourselves, that we may not lose the things we worked out, but that we may receive a full reward. (2Jn 1:8 )

john

 

[Anonymous]

You, know John, your argument goes around in circles to what I and other's post! Unless the Spirit of God draws the lost souls of sinners, they will not be saved, but by our bowing and submitting to Jesus at the calling of the Holy Spirit that means any who are lost may come and partake of the goodness of God with a Home in Glory that Jesus has gone to prepare, Who will come to get us at the time of the Resurrection of His Saints, true believers and faithful servants of Christ! You think no one has to do anything for themselves at all to be saved and the way I understand you, that God does it all! If we didn't answer when called and then study the Word, diligently, to grow in faith and wisdom and serve Him by worshiping Him in Spirit and in Truth, we could just say we are saved and sit in the pews and on our own Laruels and not do anything....but He said to occupy until He comes and that means to live, honor, obey and spread the Gospel of Jesus unto all nations and THAT MEANS WE DO SOMETHING OURSELVES and not just think we are all okay and the ones God has predestined to be saved are saved and the rest who aren't predestinated just go into the Lake of Fire and have nothing to do with their salvation at all!

No, it is God Who calls and then we must accept the calling of His Holy Spirit and be repentant of all our sins by bowing and submitting our all to Jesus...if not, we serve the devil and will continue to do so until mortal death to be lost in the Second Death! I just don't think a Loving God, Who gave His own life in our place, would be so unloving to condemn some forever without a choice to be saved or to appoint (predestinate) others to be with Him forever in Paradise! If you don't like what is posted on here than go to a Forum which believes like you do, where all can agree! You are welcome on here but don't push your beliefs on the rest of us, because I for one study the Bible Scriptures and seek His truth through the leading of His Holy Spirit for myself! May God Bless each of us with the absolute truth of His Holy Word! Amen! Ma Betty

 

[Johnnyanglo]

You, know John, your argument goes around in circles to what I and other's post!

My argument is the same and hasn't varied - itis the witness of Scripture. Your argument hasn't varied - it is the witness of your own opinion, without Scripture.

Unless the Spirit of God draws the lost souls of sinners, they will not be saved

You agree then, that only God can draw the unregenerate out of the world and save them. But, unfortunately you side-step the truth that those that God draws are His elect only, chosen from before the foundations of the earth, and not simply 'anyone' that wants to be saved or anyone that has decided to choose God. I understand why you do this: you want to keep the salvation decision with man and not God. That is why Arminianism is so attractive to the prideful spirit and also why it is a doctrinal abomination.

but by our bowing and submitting to Jesus at the calling of the Holy Spirit that means any who are lost may come and partake of the goodness of God

You'd be wise to compare your salvation plan with God's - they are not the same, and one of you is wrong. God says we are not saved by the works we have done, not by our merit, not by our faith, or any 'thing' we do. You fail to grasp the simple truth that your "bowing and submitting" is as much a work as if you said "we are saved by giving money to the church" or "we are saved when we are baptized". Our submission to God is not possible apart from regeneration - the removal of the heart of stone, the giving of life to a spirit dead to good works - all done by the Holy Spirit and performed on only those Christ died, which again, is only those the Father gave Him to redeem. Our works don't save us - but after salvation our good works testify of our righteousness that is from Christ.

You can make endless claims that our bowing to Christ 'made' God save you - or, that God 'saw' your humility and decided you were worthy for salvation, whatever, it is the same faulty game. You have nothing in you to be admired by God - and further, you have nothing in you to seek God (no one seeks after God, no not one). So, where does that leave you? Obviously, it leaves the unregenerate helpless in their depraved and vile state without any means to save themselves. This is the problem with Arminians, they reject the true state of mankind and try to infuse some spark of 'goodness' into man so he can seek God, do a good work, 'accept' God, or some derivation of the thing. This is impossible with man (but not with God).

Though shown by Scripture over and over the folly of their salvation plan based on their good works - most will ignore God and run back to it for safety. The heart of fallen man will not allow God to be Sovereign King over them. They will allow God to be a King over things 'out there' somewhere, but will move heaven and earth to avoid God's Sovereignty over them, and endlessly torture Scripture so as to nullify all truth just to hold on to their belief in the sovereignty of man, they must remain the king-makers in salvation.

he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit (Tit 3:5)

Arminians do not believe we are dead in sins - only sick, thus they teach we can reach out to God and accept God at any time. But God is not a liar - we are DEAD, and reach out to no one for salvation. That is why the Bible says over and over that we are saved by GRACE by the MERCY of God and not of works - belief and reaching out is a work. If you could do something to initiate salvation then it wouldn't be by grace but by works, and therefore grace is nullified. Arminians will read the verse below and think, "Yes, we are saved by grace when we were yet dead in sins and made alive by Christ", and then add, "when we reached out to Him and let Him into our hearts".

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) (Eph 2:5)

So many people can look right into the face of Scripture and read it a hundred times, but they cannot allow it to say what it means. If they did their entire works-plus-grace salvation plan would crumble. And why so much effort to distort and ignore Scripture? Because the heart of man is desperately wicked and loves the darkness - it is a proud heart that attempts to escape the meaning of God's word and pervert it for their own purposes. All this vanity and flailing about trying to keep their prideful hearts from being deflated. Either God saves by His grace those that He choose, and that while they are dead in their sins OR God chooses those who already chose Him (absurd and illogical) and with their spark of goodness are saved by their itsy-bitsy work that earns them God's merit and by this act of volition they 'permit' God to save them. Take your pick - however, if you love God then you are inclined toward keeping His commandments and if you don't you won't - so chose carefully. Your choice says a great deal about you.

You think no one has to do anything for themselves at all to be saved and the way I understand you, that God does it all!

Wouldn't it be wonderful if you actually understood that this is exactly what salvation is: God does it all!!!! But, sadly you are only stating the premise so you can deny it. You are confused in thinking that when God saves (by His grace) those who are the recipients of God's work (no ours) we are still the same creature. In truth, we are no longer the same - that is why regeneration is so important. When the Holy Spirit regenerates those that Christ was the propitiation for (His elect), they become a new creation. It is out of this new creation and this new living spirit that the ability to believe is born. Because of God's work we will begin to seek Him out receive truth when God reveals it. All these good works manifest themselves following salvation, as God foreordained they would, but not prior to regeneration. That means, we do not have the spiritual ability prior to salvation - we do not seek, or believe, or have faith in God (in a false god - yes), or understand, or want to do the will of God. These all follow the new birth (a birth that is from above - that is - God).

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure. (Php 2:13)

It is God's good pleasure to save some of mankind. It was God's good pleasure to choose a people for Himself. When Christ died for the Father's choice - He led captivity (to Satan) captive (to Christ) and delivered many by His blood. He did not save the 'whole world', else the whole world would be saved. He saved from God's eternal wrath those sheep given to Him by the Father and was glorifed by the Father for His obedience. Those that are saved were, in essence, with Christ on the cross - the sins of each elected person was taken with Christ, so we are free from the charge of the Law against us, Christ having fulfilled the penalty of the Law (which is eternal death).

But that is not the end of the matter. God did not just raise Christ from the dead and leave the elect in their fallen state until the day they die (though He could have). By God's grace, He applied to His elect the first installment of salvation -- a new living spirit. The second installment will be a new resurrected body (at the end of this earth we who believe shall be changed). In neither case, not at our first natural birth, or at our spiritual birth, nor at when we receive our new bodies did our will, desire, wants, decision, works, efforts, plans, etc. enter into the equation. We are the object of God's love - even when we didn't love God. Not a sappy love - but a love that is expressed in action.

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. (Joh 15:16)

Being chosen by God is not something we do by waving our hands about to get God's attention, despite the claims of Arminians. We are chosen by God and ordained to good works - we bring forth fruit while we are spiritually alive, not when we are spiritually dead. In Adam the whole human race fell into spiritual darkness but in Christ all those to be redeemed out of that mass of humanity are made alive.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (1Co 15:22)

The wicked are appointed to wrath - but those that believe were appointed to obtain salvation. The Arminian would say "because they believed" were they appointed. But God says He chose His own before the world began, before we had done anything either good nor bad, so that no man can boast. Yet the Arminian can and does boast, "if I had not reached out and accepted the free gift and condescended to permit Jesus into my life, I could not have been saved". What is this? The creature permits God to do His will? What arrogance!! What lies!!

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ (1Th 5:9)

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (Rom 11:7)

We are appointed to salvation and we obtained it! Not by works but by grace, not out of ourselves it is a gift of God. Therefore, those that are "the election", which means "the chosen", are saved (all will be saved), and the rest remain blind in their spiritual darkness. How do we obtain salvation? - "... by our Lord Jesus Christ", that's how. He just didn't make salvation 'possible', as the Arminians claim - He made it absolutely sure to those He was given to die for. This is the beauty of God's salvation - it is 'obtained' and it is 'ordained', therefore God can say He will loose none of His own.

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. (Joh 6:39)

So, again and again, the same God-breathed message: We are saved not by works but according to His Divine Will, and not to all mankind is salvation given but to all those given to the Son to die for and this "before the world began". So where is the boasting? There is no room for claiming we did this or that and that made God do this or that, that is an oft repeated lie in the church today - but it doesn't get truer through repetition.

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began (2Ti 1:9)

Can God say it any plainer? We have faith and believe and do good works because before the world was created God the Father selected a people for Himself. This same group, called His elect, are the object of His love. Jesus was sent into the world for this purpose, to take their sins with Him on the cross - and make the payment - not for the whole world, but to the election it was given. These are the sheep that Christ came to seek and save. And lo and behold, God the Holy Spirit regenerates each one of God's elect (not because they sought Him) - and lo and behold, they LIVE! And AFTER they are born from above by God - they possess the power to believe to see truth and hate lies, an outward manifestation of God's inner-work.

If we didn't answer when called and then study the Word, diligently, to grow in faith and wisdom and serve Him by worshiping Him in Spirit and in Truth, we could just say we are saved and sit in the pews and on our own Laruels and not do anything....

Your underlying presumption is concerning God's call to salvation anyone at all can decide to answer it and be saved - and that is simply not the case, as we have seen. Many are called, they hear and do not believe, but few are chosen. Only the elect hear - and that because they are given 'ears to hear'.

For many are called, but few are chosen. (Mat 22:14)

You describe the church today very well: "we could just say we are saved and sit in the pews and on our own Laruels and not do anything". We could say with Kevin Costner: "If we make a man-centered salvation program, then they will come". If we create a false salvation program, and many will join-up and 'accept Jesus' according to the rules of the salvation program. You'd have churches filled with members who are 'saved' in accordance to that program. And you do today. It would be a church filled with people who are professing Christians but who have zero interest in obeying the word of God and humbling themselves to God's commands. Sure, they claim humility and obedience, but when pushed they run from it. Why? Because a false gospel yields a false faith in a false salvation that cannot save. Sure, they say Lord, Lord and go forth to spread their false gospel thinking they are doing God's will. But in the end, the revealing will show who is the sheep (they hear God's voice and obey) and who are the goats (and the wolves in sheep's clothing).

Many will say to Me in that day, Lord! Lord! Did we not prophesy in Your name, and through Your name throw out demons, and through Your name do many wonderful works? And then I will say to them I never knew you! Depart from Me, those working lawlessness! (Mat 7:22-23)

What does it mean that God "never knew" them? Does it mean God is unaware of the people He created? No. Rather, it means that they were not 'known' by God intimately as those who are ordained to life - they weren't foreknown by God and called by name for salvation. The unregenerate hate God but they are quite willing and happy to love an idol. They joined up with a false salvation without reservation and are willing to worship a God that they create for themselves - a God that pleased them and is obedient to their thinking. Is there anything new under the sun?

How do you know if you are predestined for salvation or not? You don't, at least not in your initial rebellious state - for salvation is God's business. However, if you are now the Workmanship of Jesus Christ then you will observe in yourself a transformed life. You will read the Bible and learn from God - and you will obey what you learn. You will hate sin more and more, and you will grow in sanctification (holiness) - being less and less like the world and more and more Christ-like. We are called to judge ourselves to make sure we are in the faith. Certainly, if we believe hideous doctrines that are antithetical to God's word and close our eyes and stop our ears to our error - then we have our witness. It is one thing to find error and be teachable and correctable - that is the way of sanctification as ordained by God, growing more Christ-like by being conformed to His image. But it is another thing to trample underfoot the word of God and claim ourselves to be His - these are mutually exclusive things. That is why God warns that many will be cast out - the Lawless Ones - for they are a law unto themselves - they rejected the Word of God and thereby show they do not want God to rule over them. It is very simple - if you love God you will obey Him and if you don't you will seek out many diversion and devices.

THAT MEANS WE DO SOMETHING OURSELVES and not just think we are all okay and the ones God has predestined to be saved are saved and the rest who aren't predestinated just go into the Lake of Fire and have nothing to do with their salvation at all!

The ones predestined to salvation are the ones called by God with an effectual call (not just the general call that goes to all the world). Before Jesus could call Lazarus out of the tomb He had to do something to him first - of course, give him life. For the calling of God to bring anyone to Christ they have to be alive first. To say, "Lazarus come forth" while he is but a corpse would be futile. Obviously, before anyone can "do something ourselves" we first are made alive in order to do it - not physically but spiritually, and not by our works but by the works of God. Afterwards, we then go forth to do the good works God ordained us to walk in, but not without or apart from the re-birth. But, Arminianism says Lazarus is not completely dead - he has a spark of life to reach out to God and rise and come to Him. God says that is a lie. You be the judge and decide for yourself which is true.

For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them. (Eph 2:8-10)

Arminianism makes the cart pull the horse - it insists man drive the salvation vehicle and puts God in the cart to go along for the ride. Like some divine genie - when man is sufficiently ready (a Biblical impossibility) he decides to accept Christ into his heart - and by this magic incantation, poof, they have made God save them. It is pleasing to man because it is all of man, man, and man. Rather, God says salvation is not of works but the elect are saved by grace - we are HIS Workmanship. But the Arminian will have none of it. God says we are created (anew) in Jesus Christ for a purpose. That purpose is to do His good works - like our belief, growing in faith, producing the continuous fruit of regeneration, and spreading the gospel (the true gospel that comes from God mind you, not a gospel out of our own heads). And God says further that our good works were ordained beforehand by God - we are only doing them by His power and grace. Wow! The Root and Vine supports the branches giving the branches life - Christ is the Root and Vine and the believers are the branches while the false gospels have the branches in-grafting the Root.

No, it is God Who calls and then we must accept the calling of His Holy Spirit and be repentant of all our sins by bowing and submitting our all to Jesus

I notice you never, like most Arminians, use Scripture to support your claims. But you say "we must accept the calling" but God says something entirely different.God say HE does the effectual calling that saves - and it is not as man would have done it. That is, God calls out of the world those who are despised by the world - God choses the foolish things (in men's eyes) in order to confound the wise (in their own eyes). Who did the calling out of the world so that some are saved? God did! Who did the choosing - man or God? God did! Where does it say we have to decide for Christ and our will is supreme in the matter? No where - because that is not how we are saved.

For you see your calling, brothers, that not many wise men according to the flesh are called, not many mighty, not many noble. But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty (1Co 1:26-27)

Oh, if the Arminian could allow the truth from God's own mind to penetrate their stubborn prideful refusal to let go of their need to drive the cart - they would know the beauty of God's salvation. But how many will? Again, only those God has called and ordained to eternal life will believe.

For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, "I have set You to be a light of the nations, for salvation to the end of the earth." And hearing, the nations rejoiced and glorified the Word of the Lord. And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. (Act 13:47-48 )

I just don't think a Loving God, Who gave His own life in our place, would be so unloving to condemn some forever without a choice to be saved or to appoint (predestinate) others to be with Him forever in Paradise!

For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor your ways My ways, says Jehovah. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts. (Isa 55:8-9)

Thankfully, you do not get to design your own salvation program - even if you do. The mind of man apart from God is carnal and does not understand the things of God. He takes the things of God and pulls them down to his level - making the salvation of God into a salvation men can approve. Men think that God is unfair if He doesn't provide salvation to everyone. Yet, what is fair would be for all of mankind to be sent directly to hell - that God saves any is a testament to His Mercy. Men think it unfair if salvation is all of God and none of man. Yet, knowing the depravity of man, should God heed the Arminian and wait for him to decide for Christ? Well, under that program there would be none saved!, for not one of us can or wants to be saved in our rebellious state. So, God does not heed the Arminian - for they are fools and God is wise.

And yes, God does condemn forever some without a choice to be saved. Do you think the Hittite empire heard the gospel? How many nations rose and fell (by the dictates of God) without ever hearing the gospel? Do you think prior to the Flood that anyone living then would have wanted salvation at some point but were killed before they had the chance? No Way! The heathen are in rebellion and work evil continuously - there is no fear of God before their eyes. When God destroyed Sodom, were there babies and children destroyed? - yes absolutely. How could a loving God blot people out without giving them the gospel? Because God knows, as I know, as many who read there Bible know - that they are not EVER going to believe and be saved. Why? For the reason I have given by the testimony of many Scriptures (which you won't receive): They are not foreknown by God and therefore are not appointed to believe!!

God can wipe out everyone on earth 7,000 years ago because just like today - none of them will turn to Him and repent. He doesn't need to bring the gospel to them and offer them anything -- their wills are in bondage to Satan and they hate God -that is the reality of their fallen state. Is there anything different today? Do not many sit in churches and speak of the love of God - but when presented with the mind of God - are they not repulsed and revile God for doing things His way and not theirs. Can the leopard change its spots? Yes, the religious can feign love for God - but they will not receive the truth so that they should be saved (not apart from God and not unless they are His elect). While Sodom and Gomorrah or the Flood were judgments by God on wicked men - the real judgement is yet to be. On that day God will pour His eternal wrath on the ungodly - that is why we persuade men to believe - that is why I write to you, that if God has ordained it, you might believe and be saved from the wrath to come.

If you don't like what is posted on here than go to a Forum which believes like you do, where all can agree! You are welcome on here but don't push your beliefs on the rest of us

You only know my beliefs because I gave the testimony of Scripture. It is the Scripture that speaks not me. But, even if I do speak it is in the hope that some will hear and believe the words of Life, for it is God's truth not mine. My beliefs and your beliefs and everyone's beliefs everywhere are vain and meaningless - unless they are in accordance with and in harmony with all Scripture. The Scriptures cannot lie - if the many verses I provided teach a truth you do not agree with, then your fight is with God, for the Bible is the mind of God, not of men.

You see, in usual Christian circles it is considered ill-mannered to assert anything to be absolute and true under all conditions. The professing Christian embraces relativism as much as the reprobate - they say, there is your truth and my truth - but don't push your truth on anyone else, because your authority is not greater than any other - we all must have our own private interpretations, all is equally true. Thus, the professing Christian can declare they are at peace, when in fact, God is at war with them. The foolish person makes peace through compromise and by feigning ignorance, but God is not mocked.

For when they shall say, Peace and safety! Then sudden destruction comes on them, as travail upon a woman with child. And they shall not escape. (1Th 5:3)

The fact is, many many professing Christians are thinking they are good - they attend a benign church, where they aren't bothered or offended by biblical truth because there is none. They can play their role and hold to whatever teachings they find worthy - those that build their self-esteem. They can quibble about meaningless things but do not ever upset their world speaking the things of God - they are quite content - they just want to be left alone with their own personal revelations.

How can you believe, you who receive honor from one another and do not seek the honor that comes from God only? (Joh 5:44)

Anyone can smile and be pleasant if we speak of God 'up-there' somewhere and how much He loves everyone - no threat. Everyone can accept a salvation by works - nothing to be offended at (pride is intact). Everyone can be happy if we preach Christ did everything for us and now we must make our decision for Him - it is understood by all that we are still the ringleader of our salvation, so no problems there. We can be at peace if we believe whatever we like and teach whatever we want, for it is understood that we are the final arbiter of truth, so all is well. But, don't insist there is absolute truth, for that implies we are wrong, and more than wrong, that our refusal to believe is rebellion against God. Like the Pharisees of old, they could not gainsay against the beauty and authority of the word of God, they knew Jesus was right, but they wouldn't believe it. Though their private interpretations were broken to pieces by the authority of Scripture, they clung to them anyway. So they sought to rid themselves of the Ambassador of Truth, and killed the Chief Messenger. Is there anything new under the sun? We shouldn't be surprised that the same spirit that was in them is in the churched today.

And you shall be hated by all for My name's sake. (Luk 21:17)

Then indeed they departed from the presence of the Sanhedrin, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to be shamed for His name. (Act 5:41)

May God Bless each of us with the absolute truth of His Holy Word!

If you believe it is the Absolute Truth - then you have to ask yourself why you oppose it. That is the question for everyone. What will you do with the word of God? Ignore it, seek to wiggle out from under it, twist it to your liking, or, believe it as written and obey it. And if you do believe it, then you are by believing manifesting the good works of Christ in you! That is how we know that we are His - we receive the testimony of the word - for we who receive it are spiritually minded and not carnally minded, for the carnal mind cannot receive it.

But we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit from God, so that we might know the things that are freely given to us by God. These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1Co 2:12-14)

Yes, we CAN know truth - absolutely, for we received the Spirit from God that leads us into truth. If however, God's word is foolishness to you - then you have your witness. If you reject the wisdom of the world (such as Arminianism brings), then by that spiritual discernment you show yourself to be a child of God. The gospel cuts to life for those that believe - but it also cuts to death for those who reject it. So, don't be doubting but believe!

For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace (Rom 8:6)

For we are a sweet smell to God because of Christ in those being saved, and in those being lost; to the one, an odor of death unto death, and to the other, an odor of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? (2Co 2:15-16)

john