Pull tab park and nickels, experiment and observations

[Nick A]

Most of these conversations I start about nickels either get no responses or a bunch of defensive talk about how the E-Trac finds plenty of nickels. In less trashy sites, I'm sure picking out nickel signals is a breeze, and if you run wide open and "dig all" I'm sure that works too. I've found some old nickels with the E-Trac, but nowhere near what I did with some of my older machines in the past. Overall the buzz in the online forums is that while the E-Trac is a silver slayer, it is weak (but not useless) on nickels (and theoretically gold). My impression is that this is true. Air testing shows good responses to nickels and gold, but in the field it doesn't seem to be so good. Let me stress here too, I am not discussing gold at all. I am only wanting nickels for this experiment/discussion, so let's not drag the dreaded gold into it.

What I wanted to get at is:
a) Am I doing something wrong?
b) Can I do something better/differently?
c) Are there nickels here and I am passing them up because they don't sound like I think a nickel should?

So, I figured I would try an experiment to up my nickel count, and specifically check some areas where I had been finding deeper older coins (many wheats) for some buffalo or V nickels.

I used the learn feature and made a nickel-only screen with the medium cursor, using a handful of dug nickels. I think this ranged from CO 10 and 17, so no signals under CO 10 or higher than CO 17. Range for FE was between 8 and 15.

The particular park I went to has been generous with older coins 1920-1970, but is also loaded with pull tabs. I'm not worried about the COs in the 20's so much that "could" be nickel 3 cents or fatty Indian cents, or other coins. The most likely targets here are going to be worn V nickels, buffalo and Jefferson nickels. Seriously, I could dig pull tabs forever out of this place, so "dig all" is a crazy proposition, unless I decide to start collecting pull tabs. And if you do like collecting pull tabs the graphic I have attached may be of some interest. Also, many may not be aware that the first pulltabs came out in 1962 and had a rather unique shape. If you want to read more about those, look here http://www.rustycans.com/HISTORY/zips.html

So, went out to try it out for about an hour before the rain came. Looking for repeatable hits in that nickel window. Scratchy partial signals were not considered for this experiment. Dug a lot of one piece ring pull tabs (ironically stamped "Don't Litter" circled in red on attached graphic), tails from two piece ring tabs, assorted other tabs, some foil and four newer nickels. The newer nickels were 2-3" deep and red colored, so they were not new drops, and had been in the ground a while. What I noticed was that the nickel signals that were nickels, when pinpointed and then swept over that "center" - all gave me a relatively repeatable signal at CO 13 that the junk tended not to. The coin signals were a bit smoother, but not enough that I could clearly call them out.

My observations:
1) Other detectors (now or in the past) were hot on nickles (vs. tabs) at the heavily hunted sites I am at (i.e. there are not many old nickels left there) I know I dug quite a few old nickels in these places with my Fisher CZs and they were hot nickel machines.
2) The Minelab nickel window is tight... CO 13 seemed to be a magic number, but you had to be right on it for the most part to get a nice repeatable CO 13. If you were a little off center, it bounded around enough that I would probably pass it up as junk. (That said, I have dug old nickels that were not solid CO 13s but smoother deeper signals that just said "dig me" to my ears.)
3) Does the halo/leaching of old nickels possibly make them read lower or higher? Perhaps more like iron? This was my suspicion, but I have no evidence either way. Would I theoretically then find more old nickels in dry soil conditions? This did not prove itself to be true this summer.
4) My friend with an E-Trac says when he first got the E-Trac he used Relic mode and dug more nickels. He's since switched to Coin mode and reports his nickel count has dropped off from when he was using Relic mode.

Hypothesis:
Would opening the FE all the way from top to bottom for 12-13-14 result in more nickels? Is the FE value of nickels the trick? That would explain my friend's result with using Relic mode. It would also tend to support my supposition that the nickel "halo" is causing the nickels to read lower than FE 12 and more like/closer to iron. This may be by next experiment.

 

[chuck ky]

im learning the explorer xs. sometimes i programm in nickles. i dig a lot of junk that is mostly outside the box but if it touches the box on the screen it will respond. don't know about the relic program on nickles but do know that somes whites with jewelry program won't pick up white gold but will in relic mode.

 

[pop_tab]

I have only used the E-Trac for a short time but it has been my experience that nickels pretty much always come in with a CO of 13 but the FE drops into the single digits on the old deep nickels .

 

[moseng]

Hi Nick,

Wow, you really want to squeeze every "nickel" out of you E-Trac huh? I am not sure that you are missing anything though. If I understand correctly you want to know if you are missing nickels in a sea of pull tabs? The answer is ummmm, yes! LOL!

I agree that you have to be pretty much directly over a nickel to get a solid 13 CO (and lets not forget the smooth sound as well). But isn't that the same for any target, even say a dime can read anywhere from 43-46 (at least) depending on where your swinging? That is not to say the deeper targets don't sound and read a bit different of course. I mean if I'm over a target and it's reading anywhere from say 12-15 CO and sounding "smooth" at 6"+ I'm going to dig and expect a nickel or dare I say, that other metal you didn't want to mention! I have never found any gold that deep yet so I can't say but I have found buffaloes there and they did not all pop at CO13. Anyway those are my observations but I haven't of course done the testing you have.

 

[Jack Flynn]

The only reason I would think about lack of nickels is they just are not there. I dug 3 or 4 yesterday and if the machine sounds good I'll dig it. If the warble has any clicking or scratching in it, it is a tab for me almost always. One of the nickels yesterday was almost on edge and between 5 and 6 inches deep. When I saw 12-13 blip on the screen just one time I knew it was a nickel. I did dissect the area about 3 inches across and there were several other metals in the ground with it. When I saw 13 again even though the Fe was higher I marked it and dug. The ground was so crowded I couldn't pinpoint. Enough of the nickel story. If it sounds good dig it. I'll give you my theory on finding certain coins. We find more pennies because they blend in with the ground, dimes are little, they hide good, nickels are bigger and imo easier to see to be picked up. Quarters I just don't know, maybe just someone had too much money and didn't bother to pick it up. BTW my pulltabs are just about always higher than 13 CO. I don't dig anything between 14 and 29. Now the warble just may persuade me sometimes though.

 

[Nick A]

Here's a picture of the results.

4 pieces of foil
2 pieces of canslaw
8 tails of pulltabs
4 pulltab rings
5 one piece ring pulltabs
6 regular ring pulltabs
4 Jefferson nickels

29 trash
4 coins

1 coin for 7.25 pieces of trash

Ok, so now I did opened up the 12-13-14 CO from top to bottom, so accepting 01-13 through 35-13, etc. I air tested the 29 pieces of junk and the 4 nickels and it knocked out all but 8 of the pieces of junk and all the nickels are still in. The pieces of trash that still came in were 5 of the tails of pull tabs and 3 of the one piece ring tabs. While air testing doesn't mean too much, I can't test it right now (it's dark and raining) but it looks promising. All the other nickels I air tested also are still in.

 

[pro778]

I've had my E-Trac for a year and I hit nickels all the time. I run my E-Trac wide open. Very little discrimination and no filters. I get a good signal most of the time. Usually 12-15 . I don't see that much of a problem with picking out nickels from pull tabs. Tabs usually come in a little higher reading then nickels. I dig a lot of beaver tails, but I don't think that can be helped. If your looking for gold you have to dig all the tabs.

 

[Nick A]

I've had my E-Trac for a year and I hit nickels all the time. I run my E-Trac wide open. Very little discrimination and no filters. I get a good signal most of the time. Usually 12-15 . I don't see that much of a problem with picking out nickels from pull tabs. Tabs usually come in a little higher reading then nickels. I dig a lot of beaver tails, but I don't think that can be helped. If your looking for gold you have to dig all the tabs.

I think running wide open might help, I'll need to look over what I discovered in my hunt today with different settings (Got some good results, I think). My friend definitely thinks he dug more nickels with it in Relic mode, which is more wide open.

I agree tabs come in higher, and this may be part of the problem at my sites... too many tabs just drown out the nickel sounds so my ears get tired.

Beaver tails (ring tab tails) are still a problem. These seem to read like nickels no matter what, but I'll look at that some more as well.

Lol, you had to mention gold, didn't you. I am NOT looking for gold in this experiement, only older nickels. We all know that due to the variation in gold (shapes, sizes, karats, etc.) there is no recipe for finding gold, so you do need to dig the signals in that area. However, that said, you can find some gold without digging all the tabs. I think if I were specifically looking for gold, I would be looking at a detector that was hot on gold, maybe even a specific gold machine, rather than the silver slaying E-Trac.

 

[bigjohn070]

I also have been honing my skills on those
old nickels great topic.

As I see it you are going to dig
some beaver tails and bent pull
tabs to get them. I only dig the
5 inch and deeper targets for
nickels. i found that the pinpoint
tells a lot about your target.

HH
BIG JOHN

 

[McNickle]

I've had my E-Trac for a year and I hit nickels all the time. I run my E-Trac wide open. Very little discrimination and no filters. I get a good signal most of the time. Usually 12-15 . I don't see that much of a problem with picking out nickels from pull tabs. Tabs usually come in a little higher reading then nickels. I dig a lot of beaver tails, but I don't think that can be helped. If your looking for gold you have to dig all the tabs.

I think running wide open might help, I'll need to look over what I discovered in my hunt today with different settings (Got some good results, I think). My friend definitely thinks he dug more nickels with it in Relic mode, which is more wide open.

I agree tabs come in higher, and this may be part of the problem at my sites... too many tabs just drown out the nickel sounds so my ears get tired.

Beaver tails (ring tab tails) are still a problem. These seem to read like nickels no matter what, but I'll look at that some more as well.

Lol, you had to mention gold, didn't you. I am NOT looking for gold in this experiement, only older nickels. We all know that due to the variation in gold (shapes, sizes, karats, etc.) there is no recipe for finding gold, so you do need to dig the signals in that area. However, that said, you can find some gold without digging all the tabs. I think if I were specifically looking for gold, I would be looking at a detector that was hot on gold, maybe even a specific gold machine, rather than the silver slaying E-Trac.

Beaver tails are my problem...This year I have dug 16 Buffalo's,and 26 V nickles...Along with over 75 jeffersons..For the most part...If I am in a pre 1900 park...I will dig nickle signals 3" and over..& I still sometimes dig allot of 6"-7" Jeffersons..It takes allot of time away from my silver count,but I love nickles,and the challange they offer..
I have dug one v nickle at co 9...on edge,and a v nickle at co 22 at 8" deep..So my thinking is that some older nickles may be reading higher at a deeper depth ?.......I am still looking for the secret to digging more and older nickles......
If I am at a 1920's or newer park..I am not likely to dig many if any nickle signals....Because Jeffs came out in 1938,and My chances of finding Buffalo's and older go down...
I have devoted the majority of some days hunts to finding V and Buffalos...But those days were spent in 1870's & 1880's parks..
The beaver tails drive me nuts.....But one thing I noticed earlier in the year was...Beaver tails do not hit as soundly as a nickle...Nickles seem to bump more solid..
Most of the beaver tails I dug...I knew what they were before I dug them but,I have been suprized by a very few buffs and v's that have hit soft like a beaver tail.
I open the FE from 0-30 in the 11-16 co range....I do not even look at the FE when I get a low tone....90% of the 11 co's I dig are beavers 10% are jeffs..
12-14 co here are jeffs buffs v's,and beavers...the 15 and 16 co's are Silver war nickles and beavers.....I have also dug 10 war nickles this year..
Try pinpointing over those 16-25 co both ways...If it comes down to 12-14 co in pinpoint, and the depth is 5" or more ...Dig it!
I will be watching your post to see others ideas as well.

 

[Wisconsin]

I am not a pro but I have noticed that if you do not dig co numbers between 14 and 29 you are missing all silver with a nickel in the spill?

When I air test I always test both ways, one with just the coin and then with a nickel next to that coin for as I figure it they had nickels in the pocket and are subject to be next to a silver coin and this will lower the co numbers. I have found close to a hundred silver coins with a nickel in the same hole that others missed. (Lots of nails also)

If you want nickels watch your sweep speed as faster will tend to throw the numbers off a tad.

On nickels I have noted that a pull tab is a much larger target and more like a quarter on the surface so if you have a large response and a lower co number around 13-15 then it is most likely a pull tab. I have also noted that some pull tabs give a double beep if you go all the way across the coil much like a nail.

When I detect I open up the screen to what I am willing to dig for that day and I dig all solid signals and use a single smooth tone. I do not need tones as I have already decided what I am willing to dig.

I also use tone hold as I find the other settings cut the real deep signals at least with my Black Widow headphones all I get on the deep coins with other than tone hold is a little speaker thump and not a signal.

Hope this helps.


Fe then Co Number
Penny + Tab - 11 - 25
Nickel + Tab - 13 - 13
Dime + Tab - 10 - 23
Quarter+ Tab - 07 - 29

Penny + Nickel - 11 - 23
Dime + Nickel - 11 - 24
Quarter + Nickel - 06 - 31

Penny + Pull Tab On Top - 11 - 33
Nickel + Pull Tab On Top - 12 - 18
Dime + Pull Tab On Top - 09 - 31
Quarter + Pull Tab On Top - 11 - 45

 

[Nick A]

Results of experiment part 2 are here: http://www.findmall.com/read.php?63,1102666

 

[Nick A]

I am not a pro but I have noticed that if you do not dig co numbers between 14 and 29 you are missing all silver with a nickel in the spill?

When I air test I always test both ways, one with just the coin and then with a nickel next to that coin for as I figure it they had nickels in the pocket and are subject to be next to a silver coin and this will lower the co numbers. I have found close to a hundred silver coins with a nickel in the same hole that others missed. (Lots of nails also)

If you want nickels watch your sweep speed as faster will tend to throw the numbers off a tad.

On nickels I have noted that a pull tab is a much larger target and more like a quarter on the surface so if you have a large response and a lower co number around 13-15 then it is most likely a pull tab. I have also noted that some pull tabs give a double beep if you go all the way across the coil much like a nail.

When I detect I open up the screen to what I am willing to dig for that day and I dig all solid signals and use a single smooth tone. I do not need tones as I have already decided what I am willing to dig.

I also use tone hold as I find the other settings cut the real deep signals at least with my Black Widow headphones all I get on the deep coins with other than tone hold is a little speaker thump and not a signal.

Hope this helps.

Good observations. In "regular" detecting, I too have dug silver (and copper) with nickels. I find they still give high enough tone to dig (you may not notice this if you are not using multi-tones). I typically let depth and tone be my guide more than the meter numbers. Deep stuff sounds good even if the meter says "blech" numbers or won't lock on an ID at all. I've dug coins next to trash as well that sound good. And I often dig when I just don't know what it is... for example, a strong 12-43 at a shallow depth? I can be pretty sure that's a modern penny. A shallower CO 24 is most likely a pull tab, but a moderately deep 14-33? Not sure, could be an Indian head. A 08-38... not sure on that either (was two silver quarters and a wheat cent).

I agree that sweep speed is important for nickels too. When you pinpoint they come up 12-13, 12-14, but a quick sweep, or one not right over the center will not give you such solid numbers.

As far as the louder response on aluminum vs. nickels, I feel that this is true, but have also dug some of the louder (to my ears) signals that came in solid on the meter, and they were still nickels. I have found that complete pull tabs when laying flat tend not to pinpoint where they "should" be. I think this is b/c I get a nice tone off the tail, but then the pinpoint wants to grab the larger signal, the ring of the tab? Just a theory.

After this experiement, I found that in general my ears were better tuned to the more mellow. smooth sound of nickels. In a hunt yesterday, I turned up a deep rusty-red 1946, but I was also not at the pull tab park, with the cacophony of beeps in that range.

 

[Jack Flynn]

After this experiement, I found that in general my ears were better tuned to the more mellow. smooth sound of nickels. In a hunt yesterday, I turned up a deep rusty-red 1946, but I was also not at the pull tab park, with the cacophony of beeps in that range.
By George I think this desciption is what makes the difference. I believe that is the only coin with that sound, lower tone. Good read.

 

[Wisconsin]

This nickel topic is a very good one that points out just how much the E-Track has

 

[BOIdaho]

[size=large]I would like to start with complementing you on a great post and the discussion you got started. I don

 

[rbholt80]

now that i think about my nickel count this year it is lower. i used fisher on all my site for years and cleaned up on nickels so maybe thats a reason for some not finding more nickels.
when i hunt a place with my etrac that i havent hunted with my fishers i do about normal for a site.
but go back to my old huntong spots and im back to finding tabs and seldome a nickel.
this topic has made me really do some thinking about nickels. thanks for bringing it up

 

[akelley]

I purchased my E-Trac this year and have put in approximately 240 hours and have found 172 nickels or 7.2% of all coins I've found. I'm digging San Francisco park turf, which is mineralized and trashy. My most important observation when it comes to digging nickels is that the sound always appears to be more solid, compared to pull tabs. Typically they'll come in at CO=13, but on occasion even 12 or 14, especially when I'm using the 6" or 6x8" SEF coil. I use Response = normal, and sometimes pitch hold. I'm eager to try Response = smooth or long based on the results mentioned in this thread for those areas that are especially trashy.

Here are my percentages of other popular coins:

Washington Quarters - 299 or 12%
Roosevelt Dimes - 632 or 25.4%
Wheat cents - 52 or 2.1%
Memorial cents - 642 or 25.8%
Zinc cents - 670 or 26.9%

Clearly I'm digging too many Zincs, and I'm trying to wean myself of them. Because zincs (after they begin to corrode) can range from 34-38. I keep hoping for an Indian, but no luck thus far. Fortunately from time-to-time I do find something good in that range. But I hope my nickel percentages will go up, by not focusing so much on the zincs.

Thanks Nick for your research - this has been one of the better posts!

-Alex

 

[terrywl]

Alex, it is interesting to me how similar our results are. I am in San Diego and have hunted for 199 hours with my ET.
I have 626 pennies (20 wheats, 2 IH) or 49.5 %.
57 .05's (5 buffs) or .045%.
346 dimes (8 silver) or 27.4%
202 Q's (4 silver) or 16%.
What do you think, is this a reflection of what is in pockets regardless of area? I have stopped digging zincs (for the most part) when I have little hope of an indian head. I too rely on the sound of nickels to focus my attention and then decide to dig or not based on the total information my ET gives me. I suspect I am passing a lot of nickels by, as well as g&*# rings as I judge them to be pull tabs.

Terry

 

[akelley]

Very interesting. Your silver percentages are close to mine, as well. I don't want to hijack this post, so let's start a new thread so everyone, who keep an accurate record of their finds, can post their results this year with the E-Trac. I'm really curious to see the differences based on region, hunting preferences, settings, and type of location.

With the knowledge that the E-trac is a good coin shooting detector, then I believe as long as you're digging every reasonable signal then the percentages of each of your coin finds will be a good reflection of what's in peoples' pockets. Your results will be biased by other detectorists that have hunted the location before you, the mintage quantity of a coin, its value, and ease of recovery when dropped on the ground. For example, when people recognize that they've dropped a penny, I think fewer are willing to take the time to look for it because of its low value. So I think its no surprise that pennies reflect over half of my coin finds. Dimes have 10x the value of a penny, but people don't immediately recognize they dropped them because they're small, and if they do they have a harder time retrieving them. I didn't have time to look at a comparison of mintage quantities but I've heard that there are fewer nickels minted each year compared to other coins. Perhaps someone can validate that statement.

I've been digging a lot of zincs, but once I ignore them then I can no longer claim that my percentages are an accurate reflection of what's in people's pockets. I definitely believe that if I begin digging more signals in the pull tab range, then I'll get more nickels, more gold rings, and a LOT more pull tabs. I read one suggestion for increasing gold rings was to establish upfront the number of pull tab signals you're willing to dig that day. I think its a good strategy, assuming you're willing to dig a high number, because many detectorists ignore pull tab signals. Therefore I believe your chances of finding a gold ring in a well hunted area go up dramatically. But is it worth digging all those pull tabs (argh)?

-Alex