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Question about pinpoint and Audio 1 for my practice.....

A

Anonymous

Guest
Hi I've been doing air tests since I can't really get out in the snow <img src="/metal/html/sad.gif" border=0 width=15 height=15 alt=":sad"> I've been working on pinpoint function and have noticed something. It seems that if the depth meter is showing about 1/2 way down or about 6" on a coin such as a penny or silver quarter I can detect the coin using pinpoint. Anything farther away (simulated deeper) and it does not work. Now I know that this is only an air test in a cellar full of noise so I guess what I'm really wondering is this:
Is there some limit or percentage loss of depth in pinpoint for the object in question? I'm also looking into a pinpoint probe <img src="/metal/html/biggrin.gif" border=0 width=15 height=15 alt=":D">
My test settings are:
noise cancel first
sensitivity 22 manual
normal audio
sounds ferrous
gain 6
variability and limits 10
deep on
using smart not advanced
Another question is this. Using the same settings I find that Audio 1 in advanced will give me about 25-30% more depth for the above tests(again air tests). It does indeed "stretch out" the sound. (maybe that makes it seem like it is getting more depth?)I like the idea of possibly switching over to Audio 1 when I have an iffy repeatable signal and see if it would hone in any better. Does that make sense, has anyone ever done this?
Thanks and HH
Ed-
 
Explorer does not air test well even in your back yard not alone in your cellar with all kinds of metal and particuliary electricity all around. Just a fact even info from factory tech's using lab enviroments 7-8 inches is tops on a coin in lab tests. Fortunately in the ground with coins buried many years it will detect 10 inch plus coins with ease as its the nature of the beast. I applaud you for experimenting with snow on the ground but experimenting should be done in the field where it counts on coins buried many years.Might keep you busy but thats the extent of testing in cellar.I think you are putting the horse before the wagon and come spring start in the preset modes till you get the feeling for it.Most use normal, but feel some with good hearing could benefit from audio 1,2,3..yep when you find a deepie in the spring just might want to experiment as indeed listening to it in Normal and audio 1 may be your cup of tea..Lots of variable settings on an Explorer, but that doesn't mean you have to use them as many presets work just fine..Do keep it simple, don't get fancy and an Explorer will serve you well as many use many variations which work for them.In other words do what works for you, but do testing under field conditions..
 
Dan is right on as usual, The minelab series is notorious for BAD air tests, You can almost multiply your air test by a factor of 2X for real world performance. The GREAT news is that it absolutely loves old soil, the older a site is, the deeper the detects will register a sweat older coin, button or relic. Thats one of the reasons you see so many times on the forum someone sweeping up coins in old parks where everyone else has been. As a side note it will do well, but not as fabulous on a freshly plowed field as far as depth goes. This goes back to the freshly disturbed ground being similar to an air test.As far as electrical interference concerns, yes it does affect an indoor air test, but I will tell you this, I love electrical lines really close to old areas, because I know that without a doubt most every other detector went haywire, and left me an almost free reign to detect the area---The Exll will work in areas absolutely off limits due to electrical interference, just press noise cancel and presto....you"re swinging like there are no lines
 
Ed,
I really wouldn't worry about how an Explorer air tests. I've seen instances as soon as I took some dirt out of the hole the Explorer stopped hitting the coin. It's still there but the Explorer needs the ground. In those instances the coin is usually down another couple of inches.
I am curious about your settings. Gain at 6 and ferrous tones. What kind of sites do you hunt? Do you take a dig all approach? I sure this might start a flurry of posts but here it goes... I am a firm believer in gain at 10. I had one my best year's this year using IM-12 or IM-13, conduct sounds, gain 10 and manual sensitivity. I push my Explorer's sensitivity until the Explorer starts to get unstable then I back it off a click or two. Just my 2 cents... <img src="/metal/html/smile.gif" border=0 width=15 height=15 alt=":)"> HH!
-Bill
 
Makes areas huntable that shuts down your buddies with other units. Again the Explorer rocks when it comes to changeable facets that really work..I have used some other brand detectors with a multitiude of changeable facets that did little at best..Thanks for the headsup on that one. Indeed cabin fever creeps slowly into one with snow on the ground and feel reading the various forums or personal sites will help much more than try to test under insurmountable conditions. Lets hope the next several months fly by so we can be out swinging instead of typing.My previous post may have been a little strong and I apologize as it indeed was not of an offensive nature on my part and being retired suffer more than most during the snow season.
 
Ed,
the problem is hunting in trashy areas. The increased tone duration significantly decreases your ability to distinguish between targets that are close together. In my area, one just gets nearly a constant target indication in Audio 1. In clean areas where the targets are far apart, then it works well.
HH,
Glenn
 
Pullatab
I really do not want to start a controversy, but I suggest you look at the thread started on 1/3/2005 by Lance Dunbar regarding testing. We got into the subject of air testing performance.
I can readily detect a copper penny at 10" in an air test, but you must be careful how you define air testing and how you have your detector set up.
HH,
Glenn
 
You asked about my gain setting. I am very new to the Minelab machine. I've got about 12 hours in the field (it's snowing out now with 6" on the ground already). Anyway, I am just trying to think of any way that I can continue to practice with the machine while I wait to get back outside.
I've read so much material that I really need to start playing around and trying things. I'm trying to learn the sounds and as everyone has told me "keep it simple".
Bill, I've read a lot about gain too. I'm trying to create tests where I could actually see differences in my tests. For example I hear that high gain will help out on small weak signals so I tried a test with a tiny bee bee and changing gain. Unfortunatly the bee bee is ferrous inside so that test did not go so well as it nulled out.
Everyone says that air tests are not good as far as true depth and field conditions are concerned. I believe all of you when you tell me that and I proved the theory right here in my basement. But I've read that air tests will produce <span style="background-color:#ffff00;">the same sounds </span> as seen in the field. Is this true? I want to really learn the sounds indoors while waiting to get outside. Any comments, experience on that <img src="/metal/html/confused.gif" border=0 width=15 height=22 alt=":?">
Does anyone have any other ideas as to what I can do to contine to learn this machine during the winter months while I'm stuck inside <img src="/metal/html/sad.gif" border=0 width=15 height=15 alt=":sad">
Thanks again for all your help
HH-Ed</span>
 
C.K. I agree that I can "wiggle" a signal out of the EXll on an air test as you described, But in a real world dirt matrix, that speed won't work, or if it does,you are missing something. I have had the opprtunity to detect with one of the top EE's that invent new models for one of the top detecting manufacts, and picked his brain as much as I could. He has the opportunity to play with all the models of every manufacts, tear them apart, figure out the circuitry, etc...On coil speed he states that 2x the coil diameter is the MAX speed just about all top of the line detects can swing and differentiate close targets. That would be 21" a second for the standard coil, and 16" a second for the 8", thats the max. In a target rich environment, any faster than that an the detector's circuitry won't completely reset to properly ID an object, meaning we are missing targets many times by swinging too fast. The standard trick that the manufacts do at booths at the major hunts/meetings is to air test a machine by flicking the coin like crazy to stimulate a signal..lulls those that watch into thinking we'll get that depth outside on their new machine. The important signal we need when we are detecting is that first good peep that makes us stop, change directions, or then wiggle to see if we can lock onto a good signal. In air testing at those slower sweep speeds i can't coax my EXll to properly give a good signal at those measurements, but it does in the real world dirt matrix... hey, its probably just user error!!
 
...bump the gain to 10 and check your depth...if your's responds like mine the depth should just about double. I cry when I think of how long I hunted at gain of 6 or 7.
Hope it works for you.
HH
Brillo
 
Things are going to sound and read different in the ground. Lots of times, in fact most of the time, old buried stuff sounds stronger than new stuff you hold in you hand. But thats not a bad thing, we're after the old stuff. When you get the chance, make youself a detecting garden of known targets. Then practice, practice. Good luck, and God bless. <IMG SRC="/metal/html/flag.jpg" BORDER=0 width=32 height=17 ALT="usa~"> <IMG SRC="/metal/html/ml.gif" BORDER=0 width=30 height=15 ALT="m~">
 
Ed,
Unfortunatly, air test are not very accurate at producing sounds of coins on the fringe of detection. I will also say that I have noticed that at certain sites the ID of a deep coin is more prone to falling into lower conductivity catagories. A deep wheatie will sound like a square tab at some sites while at other sites it will not 'fall' as far in ID. Learning what each site makes the Explorer act like and adjusting your hunting style is very important.
Let's start you out 'right' by a few suggestion. I am sure others will add their thoughts. This forum is one of the best on the net at helping other detectorists. First thing to remember is sound ID is WAY more accurate than the LCD ID. That includes both LCD ID modes. ALWAYS go by sound. I would also suggest putting your variablity at 8. On 8 and using <span style="background-color:#ffff00;">conduct</span> sounds, iron will have a very high pitched edge to it and silver will be slightly below it. But, you will be able to tell the difference between iron and silver with some practice. If you want to learn the sounds indoor. I would turn the machine to manual sensitivity and take it down to single digits with nothing notched out. That way you can see what a pulltab, screwcap, coins, etc. all sound like before you get a chance to get out. Get a ruler and tape a target to it and vary the distance from the coil.
The first time you head out into the field I would only accept jewelry and coins. As you learn the coins sounds I would start accepting more trash. Don't rush accepting more trash until your are sure you're familiar with what coins sound like. After you have accepted all of the catagories I would move into iron mask mode and start trying iron mask between -10 to -12. Using the Explorer in iron mask helps get very deep coins and coins close to iron. Remember I said sound ID is very accurate? When you get a deep coin or a coin beside iron sometimes the crosshairs will get 'pulled' to the left and out of the ID range of coins but it will be a coin. BUT, in those instances the sound ID will be correct as it almost always is!
One thing I am curious that you didn't answer is why you're using ferrous tones? Using ferrous or conduct tones IMHO is dependent on a couple of things. There's no right or wrong with ferrous vs. conduct. I use both and what tones I use is dependant on the site I am hunting.
Ferrous tones - dig all above iron approach or very little modern trash site.
Conduct tones - dig only coins or sites where there is more modern trash and you can't possibly dig every signal.
Ferrous tones alter the sounds on the Explorer so that it will be hard to tell the difference between a silver coin and a crowncap or a pulltab from a IH. Iron will sound low.
Conduct sounds will make every higher conductivity coin sound a high pitch. Square tab will be slightly lower and round tabs will be lower than a square tab. Nickels and beaver tails off of round tabs will sound alike. Foil will be the lowest sound an Explorer will make unless the foil is balled up. In that case foil can sound like just about anything... <img src="/metal/html/smile.gif" border=0 width=15 height=15 alt=":)">
-Bill
 
I did forget to say... don't get overwelmed with what I just said. Take everything ONE step at a time and you'll be fine. I posted here alot when I was first learning the Explorer and asked a ton of questions. I have tried to return all of what I have learned from the others on this forum by helping other detectorist learn the Explorer too. Good Luck!
-Bill
 
than trying it out. I like all of the ideas that you posted in this thread. I'm going to try conduct as you suggest. I was not sure if I should always hunt in ferrous of conduct or a combination of both. I've read a lot of posts here where people tend to use one or the other but as you say it probably depends on where they are hunting. I will be hunting a lot of woods. Some areas will have lots of trash others won't. Thanks to all for the help. <img src="/metal/html/smile.gif" border=0 width=15 height=15 alt=":)">
HH-Ed-
 
Pullatab,
Thanks for you comments. I do not want to confuse people
My suggestions on "air testing" were only for air testing. I did not mean to apply them to how the signal sounds in the ground.
Also, regarding you comments on sweep speed, did your statement of "2x the coil diameter" mean 2x the coil diameter per second? It seems as though you cleared up that question in the part of your post.
I should also state that the only time I do the "wiggle" is for the pinpoint process, not to identify the target.
HH,
Glenn
 
Ed,
If you're hunting woods then ferrous is what I would use. Ferrous makes low conductivity target 'stick' out better IMHO. I use conduct in parks and places where there's alot of modern trash and I can't dig every signal. When I hunt fields I use ferrous because I dig every signal above iron. Good luck!
-Bill
 
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