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question by a newbierr

AK48

New member
good morning , last month , i buy the surfmaster PI and this detector make me happy cause i finf lot of thing ,it bring me a lot , but it don''t go deeper as i like so can you show me another deeper in this range and from eric's detector or list me eric's detectors from the SMPI to the last with their specification . thank you very much indeed
from a newbie from Algeria
best regard.
 
As you have a Surfmaster, I presume you are mainly searching on wet sand and in the water, looking for coins and rings. How much deeper do you want to go? To gain even a small amount of depth requires a considerable increase in transmitter power and, if possible, receiver sensitivity. The batteries have to be of a higher capacity also, and all of this reflects on the price you have to pay.

Eric.
 
Eric Foster said:
As you have a Surfmaster, I presume you are mainly searching on wet sand and in the water, looking for coins and rings. How much deeper do you want to go? To gain even a small amount of depth requires a considerable increase in transmitter power and, if possible, receiver sensitivity. The batteries have to be of a higher capacity also, and all of this reflects on the price you have to pay.

Eric.

***********************************​

"Hello Eric, a few decades have past since I last 'spoke' to you"

Your response to Newbierr invoked a though which you may

be be willing to comment on..

Have you ever developed an approximate rule-of-thumb for choice of coil diameter.' (Mono loop)

for optimum detection 'range', in relation to sought after 'target-diameter/mass and conductivity'?

I'm assuming constant power input, appropriate PRF and pulse-width (target group related), and

initially leaving out the 'ground' factors,,,,,,,i.e A theoretical 'Air-test scenario'........Matt.
 
Hi Matt,

The basic rule is that if you can just detect an object at a range equal to the coil radius, then that is the optimum. A coil either larger or smaller will give a drop in range. Conversly, if you have a 12in coil (6in radius) and you can just detect an object at 12in then going to a larger coil will give yet more range. i.e. a 15in or 18in should give a clear improvement. The problems are that larger coils pick up more electrical noise and more ground signal which will eventually override any increase in range. The conductivity and mass of the object do not affect the basic principle of coil size v object.

A long time ago I did a graph showing the above. It is most likely on this forum somewhere in the early 2000's. I may still have it somewhere and if I find it I will re-post.

Eric.
 
Re: Question on coils

Posted by: Eric Foster
Date: May 18, 2005


Here are the curves I have used for many years. The range reaches a maximum when it is equal to the radius of the coil. Coils larger or smaller than this optimum will result in less range. To show how this works, along the bottom axis you see coil diameter, which is obviously 2 x the radius. So for an 11in coil, if we go up the vertical scale to A, we have 5.5in. Also note the diagonal line and the series of ever increasing semicircles. Everything to the left of this line shows increasing detection range up to the maximum where it intersects the line, then decreasing range to the right, where the semicircles are shown dashed.

If a certain metal object is just detected at 5.5in with the 11in coil, then going larger in coil size will cause a reduction (going down the dashed side), and going smaller in coil size will have a similar effect. Initially, it won’t be much, i.e. going from an 11in to an 8in coil will only make 0.5in difference but below 4in diameter, the range will drop rapidly.
Now, suppose with the 11in coil, you can detect an object at about 12.5in (B on the vertical scale. This indicates that the coil is not an optimum size for that particular object. If we carry on up the curve (direction of arrow) we can see that by using a 20in coil, we could gain another 2.5in (C). The curve peaks at 15in with a 30in coil. But the extra inch gained hardly makes such an unwieldy coil worth while.

Other factors come into play of course. The curves assume that the number of turns and the coil current is the same in all cases; which it isn’t necessarily. For the same inductance value, a smaller coil has more turns, which counteracts to some degree the loss in range. Also a smaller coil will pick up less electromagnetic noise, earth’s field noise and ground effect, which make for a smoother threshold.

The end result is, that with a small nugget that can be detected at between 5 and 7in with the 11in coil, so that it is on the top part of the curve, an 8in coil may well give a similar range. That is not to say that smaller coils do not have other advantages. Small coils and probes are very useful in rocky areas or searching in undergrowth. They have less drag too for water hunting, and less pickup from mineralised soil or conductive sea water plus better signal separation on close or multiple objects.

One other point regarding PI, is that the small object sensitivity is largely determined by the sample pulse delay. If an object is so small, or thin, or made of high grade stainless steel, such that all the signal has decayed before sampling takes place, it would not matter how small a coil you made, it would never be picked up.

Eric.
 
hi , sorry for the delay becauei was ill , answering eric , with my SMPI , i never search on beach , i'd rather go to mountains , that's where i found one hundred and sixteen islamic medieval gold coins , and i know other are down more deep , that's why i want a PI that go more deeply and in this area ,peoples always found little hoard of gold coins no isolated coins .thank you .
NB : no matter for the price or if the detector might be heavy , i don't care ,
AK48

[attachment 338030 img_3110.jpg]
 
read here about 'deeply'
http://fisherlab.com/hobby/davejohnson/davejohnsonjohngardinerinterview.htm

DS: Are we about “maxed out” as far as how deep VLF units will go? In your opinion, what’s the biggest obstacle for current technology in achieving increased useable detection depth?

Dave: "Getting extra depth out of a VLF, multifrequency, or PI machine is very difficult, because these machines follow an inverse 6th power law relationship between signal voltage and depth. If everything else is maintained equal, doubling the depth requires 64 times as much signal. If this is done by increasing transmitter power, doubling depth requires 4,096 times as much battery drain. That’s the basic reason why depth increases come so slowly in this industry.
 
hi KT135 and excuse me again for the delay , i'm very busy with hunting as a fool , then i became tired an sleepy , sorry
thank you for the feedback , i read the article from fisher lab and i understand very good this problem but after surfing on the web , i finally found twos
detectors that i guess they matched with what i'm looking after , the first is " Detech Relic Striker " and the second is " Detech SS3100 SP "
what do you think about these twos MD ? , see you soon , bye
 
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