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Question for those of the Pentecostal/charismatic persuasion:

T

Tom_in_CA

Active member
I am a frequent poster on the regular metal detecting topic sections. This is my first post on this sub-section forum. I have a question for anyone here who is within denominations of the Pentecostal, charismatic, etc... venues of Christian doctrinal persuasion/thought:

My particular Church is a "non-denominational" church by title, and our pastors do not take an official position on these things, thus we have persons from all persuasions within our body. We have various mid-week small groups. The particular small group I'm a member of, is currently studying Ist Corinthians. We are now around chapters 12 to 14. It turns out that there is quite the spectrum of thought on these passages amongst our study group, which invariably lead to oodles of cross-references (Acts, etc...) as well.

My question is, for those that hold to the line of thought that tongues is a necessary proof of the filling (or indwelling, or baptism, or whatever you want to call it) of the Holy Spirit, How do they square this with I Cor. 12:30? The obvious implication of I Cor. 12:30 that all believers will not necessarily speak in tongues. So if that's the case, how then, is it said to be a prescriptive qualifier, amongst some denominations, that this is *the* sign of the Holy Spirit in a person's life?

If ....... in order to comment on this question, you turn to passages in Acts or eleswhere (which might lead to a "descriptive" verses "prescriptive" conversation anyhow), please anticipate that whatever answer you give, still needs to be non-contradictory with I Cor. 12:30. How can any verses and interpretation of passages you cross-reference, also not contradict I Cor. 12:30.
 
I am neither of the above so not sure you want my input?
God bless.

Mike
 
Welcome Tom in Ca to the CMD Forum, although I believe you may have posted on here before some time ago! I am of the Pentecostal faith and do speak in tongues and give messages as well I have gaven the interpretations at times, but I don't believe that speaking in tongues is necessary for salvation, as it is part of the gifts which is given to those who are asking, searching and seeking more from God Jehovah, for serving and witnessing for Jesus better! I know some believe you aren't saved without Speaking in Tongues but I'm not one of them!

I am baptised in the Holy Ghost (God's Holy Spirit) and it does make a difference in a Christian's life....it makes us more godly wise and braver in speaking God's Word and the knowledge of what scriptures say by the Holy Spirit of God leading us into the revelation of His truth as we study, diligently, and seek and ask! So I hope this helps...but many have their own believing faiths and; therefore, follow Jesus in what they know and understand! It is nothing to argue about! I am so glad I have Jesus and the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, for He gives me, power, knowledge, faith and elates me higher in His Spiritual understanding....a most wonderful feeling with faith to endure and the power to overcome all things! May God Bless! Amen! :angel: Ma Betty
 
Ma Betty, thanx for your take on the matter. It would be a VERY small niche of believers indeed, that would say it's "necessary for salvation" (although, yes, I've seen some go so far as to say that, and they are in the veerrry small majority on the interpretation on this grey area of doctorine).

Please allow me to disect what you have said, because it too was an answer (basically) given amongst our small group, which only led to more questions. Please tell me how you would respond then, to the questions your position begs.

Notice the phrases that your position has:

a) That people need to "ask" "search" and "seek" for it. Thus clearly inferring, there are those that haven't asked, sought, etc... for it. You refer to "it" as the seeking for "....more".

b) You say that your experience has given you better "serving" & "witnessing". It has made you more "wise", "Godly", "brave" more "knowlege", "endurance" etc.....

Thus leading to the question: Are these things available to those who haven't spoken in tongues, in your position? Or is the logical deduction that 1) if you feel that the baptism of the holy spirit experience as you have had it has given you these things, and 2) if tongues was the necessary outward sign of this occurance, then 3) Therefore is tongues necessary to have these great benefits?

Because I have trouble understanding how this is not the obvious conclusion of the line of thought. It's almost as if there's a "elevated consciousness" or "ascended plateu" that a Christian is told they can aspire to, once they do this next step. It's almost as if it's a case of "those having it", verses "those that don't". And think of it: Clearly, no Christian in his right mind WOULDN'T want to have "more" from God (ie.: power, fullness, strength, etc.....).

So if tongues is the clear outward proof of this phenomenom in your doctorine, then the only conclusion we can come to, in interpretting I Cor. 12:30, is it must be talking about those with less abilities, those who "haven't sought", those with less power for witnessing, strength, endurance, joy, etc... Yet if you look closely at 1 Cor. 12:30's context, it is not at all that. The people it is addressing, you can see from 12:11-13, are clearly already baptized, have the spirit, etc.... So what then can I Cor. 12:30 mean, in regards to this subject?

And can (in your opinion) persons have the fullness of the holy spirit, yet simply have another gift, and simply not ever speak in tongues? (as I Cor. 12:30 seems to imply, unless I'm mis-understanding it)
 
Yes, if your input is from known apologetics that persons from this line-of-thought would use. Ie.: that is to say, I'm not looking for reasons why a person is not a pentecostal/charismatic, in their take on spiritual gifts. I'm looking to find out how those who are fully identifying themselves this way, would answer this verse.

The best way to understand a complicated verse or doctorine, is often time not to immerse oneself in the line of reasoning that come from a position outside their own, so they can fully understand what it is, that that other viewpoint, actually says. So if you have had this conversation with anyone, let me know what they would say. The few in our Bible study, that are from a pentecostal persuasion, that I posed my question to, really didn't have an answer (but I'm assuming one is out there?). They just drew a blank, and cited personal experential things, etc....
 
I WAS IN ONE OF THOSE NON-DENOMINATIONAL CHURCHES WITH A MIXED GROUP:thumbdown:it did not work out, for it was like a CHINESE FIRE-DRILL FROM THE WORD GO:argue:TOO MANY OPINIONS TOO MANY DIFFERENT BELIEFS:wacko:ALL WE GOT WAS MOTOVATIONAL PREACHING."TIP TOE THROUGH THE TULIPS"PREACHING.NOTHING ABOUT THE BLOOD,SIN,RIGHTIONESS,FORGIVENESS,???THEN THE PASTOR OPENED UP A CAN OF WORMS.OPENED UP THE SANCTUARY WIDE OPEN FOR PEOPLE TO DRINK COFFEE,SODAS,AND FOOD.NOW IF JESUS RAN THE SELLERS AND BUYERS FROM OUTSIDE THE SANCTUARY WITH A WHIP ,GUESS WHAT HE WOULD HAVE DONE WHEN HE FOUND PEOPLE EATING AND DRINKING IN THE SANCTUARY :nopity:TO MANY FALSE CULT RELIGIONS IN THIS COUNTRY.PEOPLE WAKE UP JESUS IS SOON COMING TO CLAIM HIS OWN DO NOT GET CAUGHT IN ONE OF THIS "NEW AGE CHURCHES" OR YOU WILL BE LEFT BEHIND!!:surprised:GLORY TO THE LAMB OF GOD.:clapping:
 
Semper, your zeal is catching! :thumbup::bouncy: It doesn't address my question at all, (as the post is experientially/feeling related). But yes: feelings and zeal are not to be discounted in our Christian walk. My particular confusion/question though, in this particular case, is a biblical exposition/text one.
 
My question is what about those who believe the meaning "tongues" is simply other languages?
 
YEA, TOM YOU ARE CONFUSED:confused:ACTS;2--VRS 4:ALL OF THEM WERE FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT AND BEGAN TO SPEAK IN OTHER TONGUES AS THE SPIRIT ENABLED THEM.THIS IS THE POWER OF GOD USING THE HOLY SPIRIT THROUGH THEM TO SPEAK TO THE UNBELIEVERS ! THE BAPTISTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT WITH THE EVIDENCE OF SPEAKING IN DIFFERENT TONGUES IS POWER FROM GOD TO THE BELIEVER.THE TONGUES IS A SIGN TO THE UNBELIEVERS TO SEE THE POWER OF GOD WORKING IN THE BELIEVERS.WHEN A UNBELIEVER GETS SAVED THROUGH JESUS CHRIST THE HOLY SPIRIT COMES INTO HIS HEART ---REMEMBER THE BODY OF THE BELIVER IS THE TEMPLE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.HOWEVER THE THE SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD BRINGS DIFFERENT GIFTS TO CERTAIN CHRISTIANS---"THE GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT"DO NOT GET CONFUSED:confused:# 1------WHEN A PERSON RECEIVES "THE BAPTISTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT WITH THE EVIDENCE OF SPEAKING IN TONGUES ITS A SIGN TO OTHERS. WHEN YOU PRAISE THE LORD GOD YOU CAN PRAISE HIM IN TONGUES EDIFYING YOUR SELF.# 2-----HOWEVER DO NOT GET CONFUSED ,BECAUSE THIS IS A MAJOR PROBLEM FOR BELIEVERS,AND UNBELIVERS THERE IS A GIFT FROM THE HOLY SPIRIT TO BRING A MESSAGE IN TONGUES TO THE CHURCH ,BY ALL MEANS THIS MESSAGE IS FOR CHRISTIANS ONLY. NOW AFTER THE MESSAGE IS GIVEN IN TONGUES THERE HAS TO BE SOMEONE TO INTERPRET,IF NO ONE CAN INTERPRET THE PERSON WHO GAVE THE MESSAGE HAS TO INTERPRET.I HAVE SEEN MIRACLES WITH MY OWN EYES BY THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD ,PEOPLE DONOT BELEIVE THATS WHY THEY NEVER SEE.GET OUT OF YOUR SAFETY ---ZONE REACH OUT TO THE LORD WITH YOUR HEART WIDE OPEN.:thumbup:
 
Don't mean to offend, but what is the purpose of speaking in tongues in this present day and age? In Paul and Peters time with some many people in the area of different languages, it was necessary that the apostles be able to communicate with them in their particular language in order to get the gospel of Jesus heard. Question. When people speak in tongues, do they or you know what you are saying or is it just jibberish? Those who have the "gift" of interpretation, how do you know what they are saying? If you are speaking in tongues in a concregation where all speak English, why not just speak in English where all can understand? If you are speaking in so called "tongues" what is that profiting those in the congregation who have no idea what you are saying? We are to communicate the Gospel clearly and precisely without confusion. Who benefits from speaking in "tongues" and what is the benefit?
 
semper, again your zeal is up-lifting (no need to yell though in all-caps :yikes:)

I'm looking for the answer in your text, but still don't see it. You seem to be saying that .... yes 1) all Christians have the spirit as God's seal of ownership (ie.: it is not something received separately from salvation, right?), yet 2) Tongues bring "power" and are an "evidence" to the outside world of a second experience in the Christian's life? (or are you saying it's one & the same with the initial salvation experience? I lost ya).

Assuming you're saying it's a "second blessing" experience (ie.: empowerment, etc... subsequent to initial salvation), then what do we do with I Cor. 12:30? You see, that's my question. Is I Cor. 12:30 (trying to morph it with your position) saying that there are simply those who do not avail themselves of this power, experience, nor have the shown the outward proof to un-believers?

As for the Acts references, my question there then is, 1) are they "prescriptive" (for everyone, for all time thereafter) or "descriptive" (of particular experiences for particular persons/times)? Because bear in mind: other salvations and empowerments were/are recorded in Acts, where no such phenomenom is described. I suppose you could say it's inferred that it happened, even though not recorded? And if it's "prescriptive" (to be had by everyone) how do you square it with I Cor. 12:30? And how far do we go with the prescription? Ie.: is it not genuine unless little flames of fire rest on the recipient's heads today? (and we can infer that the flames also occured in the other Acts passages, but are just not recorded?)
 
I have ..... and am. Now I seek counsel to correctly interpret these things, in the spirit of Prov. 11:14
 
While I am struggling with understanding this, and can not say I am currently a pentecostal/charismatic, I can however, answer what those persons would say to your question (as this also came up in our home study group):

They would say that the gospel preaching you allude to in Acts. 2 is ONE usage of tongues (notice, not 2 different gifts, or types of tongues, but a single "gift", yet different "usages"). At first, I thought "they're just doing the hustle" to be saying this. Yet they have a point, that there does indeed seem to be different capacities (or uses, or whatever you want to call it) of this gift. If you read I Cor 12 and 14, you do indeed see something different alluded to than when the phenonenom occured in Acts 2. Ie.: how can you be "quiet" and "talk to God", etc... if it's strictly meant only for evangelism to those who's language you don't know?

That takes us down an ENTIRELY different track than my question though. I'm just giving you the answer as they would give it, and I don't have the answer for that either. But I will say this: When this answer (that there are different usages of the gift, and not just the Acts. 2 type manifestation/usage), I asked the participants this: In that case, cutting to the chase, and assuming this is the case, then are these other usages of tongues also subject to the "rules" of I Cor. 12 and 14? The persons I spoke to (perhaps others would differ?) said that indeed, it was still the single gift (albeit different usages) and thus, the gift would still be subject to whatever rules were spelled out in I Cor. 12 and 14.

So with that said, it becomes a mute point whether there is 1, 2, 10, or 20 "different uses" of tongues anyhow. My question still remains: What do we do with I Cor. 12:30 if the experience is prescribed for all?
 
You have asked a lot of questions Tom and I will have to read and ponder on what God will have me write concerning your questions.....you see, I know in my heart by God's Holy Spirit what I have and the usage of speaking in tongues and intreperting the message spoken in tongues in English! The message is for believers and never goes against the Scriptures which are the Word of God. Sometimes some things just cannot be explained unless you ask of God and seek by faith what he has for you, as a believer and what gifts he wants you to have and use! I have more than one gift, but since I don't attend church any more and just listen to the TV preachers, I really don't use my gifts, except in the Holy Spirit revealing to me what His answer is ahead of time as people pray......He reaveals things to me and I'm not psychic although some people say that is what I am! You see God works Supernaturally in His faithful saints as well as satan using people for his spiritual evil and wickedness! The power of God is for anyone who truly seeks Him for it....just like some seek salvation...continually asking until they know that they know that they know they are saved and with the gifts the same thing.....asking and praying to God in Jesus' name for the Baptism of the Holy Ghost is given to those who truly give Him their all and I mean ALL....their whole selves and don't hold nothing back! That is what faithfulness is: Going all the way Home with Jesus and no turning back once we agree to receive and obey.

My brother sought the Baptism but never received it but I know he was saved! I believe he was holding something back from the Lord and I wish with all my heart that he had received power from on High because I don't believe he would have committed suicide from the deep depression he was in! The power of prayer and praying in unknown tongues is God speaking to us when laying on of the hands and the one giving the message in tongues gives the intrepretation just for you to know what God is giving or doing for you, personally! It is so difficult to explain, for it is a personal relationship between the Christian believer and God, Himself! That is why it says.....ask and you will receive; seek and you shall find....for the Holy Spirit of God will move mountains out of the way for His own people and also helps us to endure and overcome in every trial as long as we trust in Jesus and lean on Him.

There can be no doubt of the power of God and His Spiritual gifts, for if we doubt than we do not believe all things are possible with God for them whom believe! So prayer, faith and belief in what the Scriptures say is what we need to do when confused and need an answer: Ask of God and seek Him for the answer by prayer!

When I am down, spiritually, I can listen to someone on TV who is speaking in tongues and that gets me to speaking in tongues which lifts me up above the shadows and brings me back to the joy of my Lord Jesus Christ!

SemperFi types in Capitals, because he has a hard time seeing the letters and makes it easier for him.....I don't think he means to shout....just excited about having the Holy Spirit of God within him, Who brings the joy and happiness of Jesus with the power to endure and overcome all things! Amen!

May God Bless! Amen! :angel: Ma Betty
 
Ma Betty, I look forward to your answer, once you've read, pondered, and seek what God would have you to write. That's a very sincere answer. And I'm glad that you acknowledge that the answer can not go against/contradict the word of God. Because we can not use our "feelings" or "experiences" as a guideline. But rather, the word of God should be the guideline for our experiences and feelings (because otherwise, we can merely be subject to feelings, and not facts, on whims of moods, etc....).


Thankyou for letting me know about Semper's eye-sight. Sorry 'bout that.

I look forward to your getting back to me on the matter of whether or not tongues is prescribed / available for all, or not. You can easily see (if you've listened to enough pentecostal preaching), that it is hard to escape that a lot of pentecostals/charismatics do indeed put this level of significance on it (that it is prescribed, and to be sought after, by all).

For example: If I'm not mistaken, the Assemblies of God (which is a VERY large pentecostal denomination, with TONS of beautiful sincere believers) own statement of faith flatly states that this filling (or baptism, or whatever you want to call it) is "evidenced by speaking in tongues". You can't have it any more clear than that, that they hold to this. Thus my confusion :( How can that square with I Cor 12:30? Are we to assume that those in I Cor. 12:30 just "haven't sought it", aren't "empowered", or are lacking in some way?
 
I Corinthians 12:30 is referring to the "gifts of the spirit" which is different to just being filled with the Holy Spirit. The scriptures above it speaks of all the gifts of the spirit and is referencing the fact that everyone has different positions, different gifts etc which as a whole makes the body of Christ complete.
There is a big difference in having the gift of tongues and the gift of interpretation of the tongues which is used solely to speak to the church as a direct message from God and then just being filled with the Holy Spirit and having tongues to pray for things that we know not how to pray for or to praise God in a way that is not earthly possible in just this old fleshly man. Thus the reference to do all speak with tongues, do all interpret which is referring to the gift of tongues and interpretation to the church. I do not believe this is a referral to the tongues that were heard on the day of pentecost which was not a message to the church but rather Praises to God.

Do all have the gift of tongues and interpretation? No some have gift of healing, faith etc However, everyone can be filled with the Holy Spirit and be able to pray and praise in tongues which is a wonderful advantage to our prayer and praise life.
 
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