Again I ask what is the purpose of speaking in tongues. That was a gift given to the apostles for their time. What purpose would it or does it serve now. Why not speak plain simple English or whatever legitimate language you can to the people in your audience that speaks that language? If I am teaching a group and I am teaching in English, and there are people in the group that do not speak English, should I not try to communicate to them my message in getting someone who does speak their language. Show me in the Bible where it says that speaking in jibberish or as some call it tongues is Biblical. My main question, I guess is, WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF SPEAKING IN SOME VERBAL WAY THAT ONLY YOU AND THE SO-CALLED INTERPRETER UNDERSTANDS? WHY NOT SPEAK WHERE ALL CAN UNDERSTAND AS SOON AS IT IS SPOKEN? Completely baffles me why people believe in SPEAKING IN TONGUES.
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Question for those of the Pentecostal/charismatic persuasion:
- Thread starter Tom_in_CA
- Start date
So let me understand this correctly: There is a type (or use, or whatever we'll call it) of tongues that is "outside the rules" of I Cor. chapters 12 and chapter 14?
For example, if .... in this case ..... we can clearly see from 1 Cor 12:30, that not all will have this gift (no matter if they seek it till the cows come home) that you will merely say this is only talking about a *certain* type of the use of the gift? And in another "use" of the gift is not subject to anything written in the very same chapters?
So I guess you would say that the ability to speak to others in their language, that you yourself have not learned (like was done for evangelism in Acts 2), is the only "tongues" referred to in I Cor. 12:30, that is not for all. Right? So that in this way, 12:30 would *not* apply to another usage of the gift. Am I understanding your take on this correctly?
For example, if .... in this case ..... we can clearly see from 1 Cor 12:30, that not all will have this gift (no matter if they seek it till the cows come home) that you will merely say this is only talking about a *certain* type of the use of the gift? And in another "use" of the gift is not subject to anything written in the very same chapters?
So I guess you would say that the ability to speak to others in their language, that you yourself have not learned (like was done for evangelism in Acts 2), is the only "tongues" referred to in I Cor. 12:30, that is not for all. Right? So that in this way, 12:30 would *not* apply to another usage of the gift. Am I understanding your take on this correctly?
7centsworth
Well-known member
DK it is real , i can not say i have ever done it . But i have seen it once or twice. I always thought the same way as you. And one day i heard it , it was like GOD ws right there. There was the tongue and a few seconds later another person interpreted it. It was sort of like a miracle took place. I new that it was real and i had always thought it was weird. Once when I was a little boy , when my brother was dieing in bed with a brain tumor I heard my mother praying out loud to GOD. She was praying like a prayer only a mother could pray for a dieing child . While she was praying her language changed and she started sounding foreign. After she was done I asked her about it and she did not know she had even done it. She in my veiw was speaking directly to GOD. Sometimes if we have never seen or done we do not beleive , I beleive if we truly worshipped GOD (me included) alot of things would freak us out . For instance the bible talks about clashing of cymbals and dancing. Alot of people think dancing in church is wrong. And I have not seen it in my church , but that does not make it wrong. When my daughter was a few months old we were listening to music and she started dancing. She had never seen anybody dance. IT came natural GOD gave us that to praise him with. When we get older we tend to care more about how it looks to others . Maybe some day GOD will have me dancing . I pray that I will always be open to GOD's will. I go to a baptist church also and we beleive in alot of things that we do not see much. We all need to realize that know matter how we all beleive we are in this together and not turn this in to an argument. We are all brothers and sisters in CHRIST . One church not one denomination. I love all yall as brothers and sisters in CHRIST and just because I think a certain way does not make it right. Just my 7centsworth.
Well again, thinking how those of this persuasion would answer your questions: They would say it's a "prayer language" between you and God, and is not the "type" or "usage" seen in Acts 2 (which has a clear need for evangelism in that case, no one would argue with that). So the type of usage of the gift is I Cor. 14, seems to have some other function or purpose, as you will see from reading there. Not saying this clears up the matter if its "still prescribed for all" or not, I'm just telling you their answer.
This does not answer another part of your question, of why go through one supposed language, then to another to interpret, and presto, a message for those in your audience. Ie.: why not a direct message in english? Afterall, in those same fellowships, no doubt, there are those who would believe they are direct oracles (ie.: "receiving a prophecy") in regular english, right? I don't know their answer on the "why?" of that, but just know that they consider either/or to be a message from God, if I'm not mistaken.
They might say that it's simply spelled out in the Bible (with no answer given to our "why?"). Once again, if you read I Cor. 12 & 14, you could simply have asked the same question back then: why all this speak then interpret stuff, if they could have just spoken direct in an understandable language? So your question is one that theoretically won't have changed for 2000 yrs. now, if you want to think of it that way.
Next you say: "That was a gift given to the apostles for their time." This "cessationist" view is a very widely accepted viewpoint of Christendom. There are beautiful sincere zealous believers on this side of the grey-area, as there are beautiful sincere zealous believers on the "non-cessationist" veiwpoint. To you I would say, that it becomes problematic to support the cessationist viewpoint (that it all ceased at the closing of the 1st century apostles). Some have tried to use I Cor. 13:8 to support this notion. But if you study it enough in context, you will see it has a host of problems trying to make it mean or say that.
For the purpose of my question, I am assuming it's "still for today". That can be a different thread perhaps, to go over the various debate points on "not for today". I can live with that it might be for today, but I'm just having trouble with the " ..... and EVERYONE should and can do it lest you be weak, missing out, and a second rate Christian" type of thing. That's where I begin to have the problem, and wonder how the proponents square with I Cor. 12:30.
This does not answer another part of your question, of why go through one supposed language, then to another to interpret, and presto, a message for those in your audience. Ie.: why not a direct message in english? Afterall, in those same fellowships, no doubt, there are those who would believe they are direct oracles (ie.: "receiving a prophecy") in regular english, right? I don't know their answer on the "why?" of that, but just know that they consider either/or to be a message from God, if I'm not mistaken.
They might say that it's simply spelled out in the Bible (with no answer given to our "why?"). Once again, if you read I Cor. 12 & 14, you could simply have asked the same question back then: why all this speak then interpret stuff, if they could have just spoken direct in an understandable language? So your question is one that theoretically won't have changed for 2000 yrs. now, if you want to think of it that way.
Next you say: "That was a gift given to the apostles for their time." This "cessationist" view is a very widely accepted viewpoint of Christendom. There are beautiful sincere zealous believers on this side of the grey-area, as there are beautiful sincere zealous believers on the "non-cessationist" veiwpoint. To you I would say, that it becomes problematic to support the cessationist viewpoint (that it all ceased at the closing of the 1st century apostles). Some have tried to use I Cor. 13:8 to support this notion. But if you study it enough in context, you will see it has a host of problems trying to make it mean or say that.
For the purpose of my question, I am assuming it's "still for today". That can be a different thread perhaps, to go over the various debate points on "not for today". I can live with that it might be for today, but I'm just having trouble with the " ..... and EVERYONE should and can do it lest you be weak, missing out, and a second rate Christian" type of thing. That's where I begin to have the problem, and wonder how the proponents square with I Cor. 12:30.
Kentucky Boy, yes we are all brothers and sisters in Christ, and this is not an issue to divide over. Discuss? yes perhaps. But divide? No. This is a grey area of doctorine, not a black and white one, in my opinion. Ie.: not like the dividing lines over what constitutes a cult, for instance. Ie.: if someone's saying "Jesus is not divine, and is only a mere man" or "there are many Gods/polytheism" or "you can be saved only by being baptized in mollasses", etc.... THEN we'd have a problem. But for this issue of tongues, their perpetuity, their usage today, rules of conduct for them, etc... we can all agree that the scriptures on this can ...... in fact ....... be confusing. Thus we should not divide over it, and are all brothers and sisters in Christ, once we've come to a personal saving grace relationship with Him.
The only other thing I would add to your post, is to observe that your belief in a phenomenom, is because you believe you have seen it, heard it, felt it, etc.... If you read back through your own post, I'm sure you will see that you do appeal on that level. You forego logical flow-chart biblical pro & con type talk, and appeal on the experiental level. So the only thing I would say to that is, that: yes, we humans are feeling / emotional beings. But we have to remember though, that our guideline for doctorine is not "feelings". We do not "rightly divide" the word of God in-light of our feelings and experience, but rather, vice-versa. We judge and monitor our "feelings" in light of God's word. Right? Feelings can be fickle. Psychosomatic behaviors can fool us. The power of "suggestion" can be very powerful. So not to discount the role emotions, feelings, joy, dancing, etc.... have in our lives, but only to keep in mind, that they should not run the evaluator of "truth", in the long scheme of things.
The only other thing I would add to your post, is to observe that your belief in a phenomenom, is because you believe you have seen it, heard it, felt it, etc.... If you read back through your own post, I'm sure you will see that you do appeal on that level. You forego logical flow-chart biblical pro & con type talk, and appeal on the experiental level. So the only thing I would say to that is, that: yes, we humans are feeling / emotional beings. But we have to remember though, that our guideline for doctorine is not "feelings". We do not "rightly divide" the word of God in-light of our feelings and experience, but rather, vice-versa. We judge and monitor our "feelings" in light of God's word. Right? Feelings can be fickle. Psychosomatic behaviors can fool us. The power of "suggestion" can be very powerful. So not to discount the role emotions, feelings, joy, dancing, etc.... have in our lives, but only to keep in mind, that they should not run the evaluator of "truth", in the long scheme of things.
Paul(NWOH)
New member
you haven't given it to him. Chapter and verse. Tom is a fairly learned man, by his replies. However, this discussion is being discussed using the english language and not by Koine Greek That it was originally written in the new testament. DK has interjected a totally off discussion viewpoint. This all very interesting to an outsider.
May God bless all my brothers and sisters in Christ,
Paul(NWOH)
May God bless all my brothers and sisters in Christ,
Paul(NWOH)
A
Anonymous
Guest
Like I said before, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is difficult to explain, if a person has not experienced it! The same as when we become saved and we have the assurance in Christ Jesus that we are saved unto eternal life by the forgiveness of our sins! Can anyone really explain how a person knows or feels that they are saved to someone who is not saved and is an unbeliever? We believe by faith but there is more to it, to truly know that a person really knows they are saved....by the Holy Spirit of God dwelling within and then with the Baptism of the Holy Spirit....filled with Him....He guides and directs our footsteps and gives us the power and the bravery to speak for Christ and to overcome whatever satan sets before us to snare us with! He makes us aware of the dangers and who the enemies are and what they may do to harm! These are revealed by the quickening spirit of God talking softly or with an urgency and also in visions and dreams! I don't just feel God and His Spirit moving within me but I know that I know that I know He is real and revealing to me what He wants for me to use to serve Him, faithfully, and to witness for Jesus to the lost souls, who are unbelievers in Christ!
When we are to speak in tongues it could be English to begin with and have not an interpreter or we can speak in tongues in a foreign language for someone's benefit who may be in the congregation and knows the language or maybe it is just prayer language speaking directly to God for what we need and don't know what we need but the Holy Spirit does! There are many things of God that we can ask or wonder WHY, but God is God the Almighty One, so whatever He wants to do He does it and maybe we are not to question but take it by faith believing in the Supernatural Power of our Awesome God!
I have danced in the Spirit because when God fills you with His powerful love that is what you want to do! The devil sure has his people dancing and shouting at the worldly concerts, so don't you think God is far better in moving us with His Spiritual love so wondrous that you cannot help but to dance, shout and praise the Lord! The Bible says that David danced so hard that he danced out of his clothes!
I will be studying the Scriptures you are talking about, Tom, and will, hopefully, have an answer from God through His Holy Spirit guiding me into all truth....but right now I haven't the answers you want to your questions! I believe that anyone can seek and be filled with the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, but that doesn't save them.....only the blood of the Lamb does that! But to have more power and faith from our God on High is much better than not having Him! IF they truly want the gift of speaking in tongues by praying earnestly and asking of God, I believe He will give it to them, as well as any of the other spiritual gifts! We can pray for the better gifts of preaching and etc. if that is what we want, but we will know I think before hand what Spiritual gifts God wants us to use by the infilling of His Spirit and His moving us to serve Him in the capacity He chooses for us! Some are called to preach and so on! When we are to prepare to use that gift, God will give us the will and the faith to study, learn and go forth to use the gift or gifts He has given each of His Spirit-filled Saints!
May God Bless! Amen!
Ma Betty
When we are to speak in tongues it could be English to begin with and have not an interpreter or we can speak in tongues in a foreign language for someone's benefit who may be in the congregation and knows the language or maybe it is just prayer language speaking directly to God for what we need and don't know what we need but the Holy Spirit does! There are many things of God that we can ask or wonder WHY, but God is God the Almighty One, so whatever He wants to do He does it and maybe we are not to question but take it by faith believing in the Supernatural Power of our Awesome God!
I have danced in the Spirit because when God fills you with His powerful love that is what you want to do! The devil sure has his people dancing and shouting at the worldly concerts, so don't you think God is far better in moving us with His Spiritual love so wondrous that you cannot help but to dance, shout and praise the Lord! The Bible says that David danced so hard that he danced out of his clothes!
I will be studying the Scriptures you are talking about, Tom, and will, hopefully, have an answer from God through His Holy Spirit guiding me into all truth....but right now I haven't the answers you want to your questions! I believe that anyone can seek and be filled with the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, but that doesn't save them.....only the blood of the Lamb does that! But to have more power and faith from our God on High is much better than not having Him! IF they truly want the gift of speaking in tongues by praying earnestly and asking of God, I believe He will give it to them, as well as any of the other spiritual gifts! We can pray for the better gifts of preaching and etc. if that is what we want, but we will know I think before hand what Spiritual gifts God wants us to use by the infilling of His Spirit and His moving us to serve Him in the capacity He chooses for us! Some are called to preach and so on! When we are to prepare to use that gift, God will give us the will and the faith to study, learn and go forth to use the gift or gifts He has given each of His Spirit-filled Saints!
May God Bless! Amen!
Ma Bettydirtdigginlady
New member
Tom this is a very deep subject that is hard to put into a 1.2.3 answer here. Many people have been taught "against" speaking in tongues all their life or they are just very skeptical of it. That is very understandable to me. However it doesn't void the fact that speaking in tongues is real. I wish you could get a copy of a very old book They Speak with other tongues by John Sherrill. It's just about their story of being sent out to discredit speaking in tongues. He and his wife were writers for mangazines such as guidepost etc. They were very skeptical. They just didn't believe it was of God and set out to prove. The end of the story...after much study of people, churches etc they came away believers. They made a tape of people speaking in tongues and added their own selves speaking in the best tongues they could and took it to a language expert. He listened to each one and some he knew the language, many he didn't know what it was but could confirm it was indeed a language then wehn he came to where they had spoke he said this is not a language at all just jibberish.
Here are all the places where it is mentioned in the bible:
There are five places in the New Testament where speaking in tongues is referred to explicitly:
Mark 16:17, which records the instructions of Christ to the apostles, including his description that "they will speak with new tongues" as a sign that would follow "them that believe" in him.
Acts 2, which describes tongues-speaking occurring in Jerusalem at Pentecost.
Acts 10:46, when the household of Cornelius in Caesarea spoke in tongues, and those present compared it to the tongues-speaking that occurred at Pentecost.
Acts 19:6, when a group of approximately a dozen men spoke in tongues in Ephesus as they received the Holy Spirit while the apostle Paul laid his hands upon them.
1 Cor 12, 13, 14, where Paul discusses speaking in "various kinds of tongues" as part of his wider discussion of the gifts of the Spirit; his remarks shed some light on his own speaking in tongues as well as how the gift of speaking in tongues was to be used in the church.
Other verses by inference may be considered to refer to 'speaking in tongues', such as Isaiah 28:11, Romans 8:26 and Jude 20.
It is hard for me to explain here what I was trying to and I see you did not understand what I was saying. From my study of the scriptures and my experience I believe the I Cor. is speaking of one of several gifts that God gives to believers for the benefit of the Church. Have you seen people that just had a faith that others don't have? It is one of the gifts. Thats not to say that all christains don't have a measure of faith but that is different than the GIFT of faith. This scripture is speaking of the Gift of Tongues that is ONLY to be used with the gift of interpretation of tongues that is to be used to speak to the Church as a direct message from God. Someone speaks in tongues, and either they or someone else interprets what is being said . This is where so much confusion comes to people who don't understand. This is where the bible says if there is no interpretation then keep quiet. Don't just keep speaking out in tongues if no one can interpret because it doesn't profit the church. However look at the other scriptures. All believers can be filled with the holy spirit and speak in tongues and that tongues is used for us to pray. Have you ever just went before God in agony and just didn't really know how to pray for a situation. The bible says Roms 8 : 26 Likewise the spirit also helpeth our infirmities for we know not what we should pray for as we ought but the spirit itself maketh intercessions for us with groanings which cannot be uttered..............but the spirit maketh intercessions for the saints according to the will of God. In Jude 20 we are taught But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith praying the Holy Ghost. Tongues is a powerful prayer tool. It is also a powerful Praise and Worship tool. We can praise God in a language that is beyond our ability to do so in our own language. According to the scripture every believer can have this use of the Holy Ghost. Not every believer will be given the Gift of tongues that is used with interpretations to speak messages to the church. Just as not everyone will have the gift of faith, the word of wisdom, the word of knowledge, the gifts of healing, working of miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits divers kinds of tongues, the interpretation of tongues. I am sure I have just confused you more. I don't mean to but just know this. You cannot explain away speaking in tongues in the new testament. It is real. It's just as real today as it was then. It hasn't gone away. It has been misused and abused just by people's ignorance but it is real and it is powerful.
Here are all the places where it is mentioned in the bible:
There are five places in the New Testament where speaking in tongues is referred to explicitly:
Mark 16:17, which records the instructions of Christ to the apostles, including his description that "they will speak with new tongues" as a sign that would follow "them that believe" in him.
Acts 2, which describes tongues-speaking occurring in Jerusalem at Pentecost.
Acts 10:46, when the household of Cornelius in Caesarea spoke in tongues, and those present compared it to the tongues-speaking that occurred at Pentecost.
Acts 19:6, when a group of approximately a dozen men spoke in tongues in Ephesus as they received the Holy Spirit while the apostle Paul laid his hands upon them.
1 Cor 12, 13, 14, where Paul discusses speaking in "various kinds of tongues" as part of his wider discussion of the gifts of the Spirit; his remarks shed some light on his own speaking in tongues as well as how the gift of speaking in tongues was to be used in the church.
Other verses by inference may be considered to refer to 'speaking in tongues', such as Isaiah 28:11, Romans 8:26 and Jude 20.
It is hard for me to explain here what I was trying to and I see you did not understand what I was saying. From my study of the scriptures and my experience I believe the I Cor. is speaking of one of several gifts that God gives to believers for the benefit of the Church. Have you seen people that just had a faith that others don't have? It is one of the gifts. Thats not to say that all christains don't have a measure of faith but that is different than the GIFT of faith. This scripture is speaking of the Gift of Tongues that is ONLY to be used with the gift of interpretation of tongues that is to be used to speak to the Church as a direct message from God. Someone speaks in tongues, and either they or someone else interprets what is being said . This is where so much confusion comes to people who don't understand. This is where the bible says if there is no interpretation then keep quiet. Don't just keep speaking out in tongues if no one can interpret because it doesn't profit the church. However look at the other scriptures. All believers can be filled with the holy spirit and speak in tongues and that tongues is used for us to pray. Have you ever just went before God in agony and just didn't really know how to pray for a situation. The bible says Roms 8 : 26 Likewise the spirit also helpeth our infirmities for we know not what we should pray for as we ought but the spirit itself maketh intercessions for us with groanings which cannot be uttered..............but the spirit maketh intercessions for the saints according to the will of God. In Jude 20 we are taught But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith praying the Holy Ghost. Tongues is a powerful prayer tool. It is also a powerful Praise and Worship tool. We can praise God in a language that is beyond our ability to do so in our own language. According to the scripture every believer can have this use of the Holy Ghost. Not every believer will be given the Gift of tongues that is used with interpretations to speak messages to the church. Just as not everyone will have the gift of faith, the word of wisdom, the word of knowledge, the gifts of healing, working of miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits divers kinds of tongues, the interpretation of tongues. I am sure I have just confused you more. I don't mean to but just know this. You cannot explain away speaking in tongues in the new testament. It is real. It's just as real today as it was then. It hasn't gone away. It has been misused and abused just by people's ignorance but it is real and it is powerful.
dirtdigginlady
New member
when I read the story about your mother, I just had the presense of God fill my room. Wow what a testimony. This is exactly what I have been trying to explain to God and exactly what the bible refers to in Romans 8 26, 27. DK asked why......this is why. I pray God fills you with the Holy Spirit and lets you experience speaking in tongues.
dirtdigginlady
New member
You may never be given the gift of tongues with interpretation but focus on the praying in tongues and praising in tongues then perhaps you'll see a much greater (greater for you that is) purpose in it.
as I said I am not Pentecostal or charismatic. I decided before I would speak, I would seek the wisdom of my pastor as I often do. Here is his reply to your original quetion.
A short response is that I agree with the writer. I do not think speaking is tongues should be elevated to THE SIGN OR PROOF of a baptism of the Spirit or the sure sign of a real "Spirit-filled" life. The ultimate proof of a real Spirit-filled life is bearing the fruit of the Spirit as in Galatians 5:22-24 and walking in Love as in 1 Corinthians 13. The filling of the Spirit (Ephesians 5:1
is ongoing and is seen in worship, thankfulness, and relationships! I am not against tongues, but do not agree with the Pentecostals who elevate is the badge of real spirituality! Paul in 1 Cor, 12 puts it not first, but almost last in the list of gifts and the whole context of 1 Cor. 12-14 is to downplay this spectacular gift of God from the "showmanship" of the Corinthian church! I hope this helps....we can discuss it more later or in person! In His grace, pat
I myself know at least two people who I believe genuinely do speak in tounges, and have seen others who I believe are putting on a show.
I personally have not studied that much on the subject. I hope this helps.
Mike
A short response is that I agree with the writer. I do not think speaking is tongues should be elevated to THE SIGN OR PROOF of a baptism of the Spirit or the sure sign of a real "Spirit-filled" life. The ultimate proof of a real Spirit-filled life is bearing the fruit of the Spirit as in Galatians 5:22-24 and walking in Love as in 1 Corinthians 13. The filling of the Spirit (Ephesians 5:1
is ongoing and is seen in worship, thankfulness, and relationships! I am not against tongues, but do not agree with the Pentecostals who elevate is the badge of real spirituality! Paul in 1 Cor, 12 puts it not first, but almost last in the list of gifts and the whole context of 1 Cor. 12-14 is to downplay this spectacular gift of God from the "showmanship" of the Corinthian church! I hope this helps....we can discuss it more later or in person! In His grace, patI myself know at least two people who I believe genuinely do speak in tounges, and have seen others who I believe are putting on a show.
I personally have not studied that much on the subject. I hope this helps.
Mike
Yes, it helps. Thanx. Although your pastor's take, of course, is from the perspective of a non-pentecostal persuasion, and I was hoping to know what proponents would say. Ie.: "their" apologetics. Your pastor has basically given the alternative "non initial evidence" position, but it does bear repeating. Rather than seeking an answer to my biblical question from the "non-initial evidence" (or cessasionist position), I was hoping to know what an actual pentecostal/charismatic themselves, would answer to I Cor. 12:30.
You say you can't put it in a 1.2.3 answer, but you do a good job! Skipping through any experiential things (the book you allude to, various people's thoughts, etc...) and skipping through the well known biblical citations (which is, of course, what we are talking about), I do arrive at a plausible explanation in your text, to my question:
Basically, it's this: Whereas each of us has a "specific" gifts (administration, helps, faith, miracles, prophecy [preaching], etc....), this does not mean you have "absolutely zero" of all the other gifts. So for example, you use a good example, and say that while some are given an immeasurably larger does of "faith" (hence, their gift), yet the rest of us still have "faith", but just not to that degree, of those with the "specific" gift. Right? So in the same way, you're saying, that so too do all have tongues, yet some have it as their "specific" gift.
Am I understanding this correctly? If so, this is very compelling, and I never thought of it this way.
Then let me go on to this then: What would you say about the Christian who perhaps never, in his life, speaks in tongues. Is this even possible then?
As for the socialogical studies of this (although this is outside the topic), I too have read that linguists have studied this (recordings and such). To my knowledge, it was deemed to be jibberish, but having tonal qualities of sounding like a language. The the "jury is out", because naturally, even if we form "jibberish", our intellect tends (because afterall ........ we speak languages known to us too) to form them into word like phrases. So the jury is out. And even if it could be shown by linguists to be nothing but jibberish (and not a known language), the proponents would merely say "It's an angelic language", thus skirting the issue. So this is all a mute point.
Basically, it's this: Whereas each of us has a "specific" gifts (administration, helps, faith, miracles, prophecy [preaching], etc....), this does not mean you have "absolutely zero" of all the other gifts. So for example, you use a good example, and say that while some are given an immeasurably larger does of "faith" (hence, their gift), yet the rest of us still have "faith", but just not to that degree, of those with the "specific" gift. Right? So in the same way, you're saying, that so too do all have tongues, yet some have it as their "specific" gift.
Am I understanding this correctly? If so, this is very compelling, and I never thought of it this way.
Then let me go on to this then: What would you say about the Christian who perhaps never, in his life, speaks in tongues. Is this even possible then?
As for the socialogical studies of this (although this is outside the topic), I too have read that linguists have studied this (recordings and such). To my knowledge, it was deemed to be jibberish, but having tonal qualities of sounding like a language. The the "jury is out", because naturally, even if we form "jibberish", our intellect tends (because afterall ........ we speak languages known to us too) to form them into word like phrases. So the jury is out. And even if it could be shown by linguists to be nothing but jibberish (and not a known language), the proponents would merely say "It's an angelic language", thus skirting the issue. So this is all a mute point.
I suppose I could ignore problematic verses, and only go to verses that tell me what I want to hear. But something doesn't sound right, to do that. Ie.: why would anyone walk away from a verse, that seems to shed light on a doctrinal question, and simply go to the verses, that tell one side of the picture? None of us would argue that I Cor. 12 is "not applicable" or not inspired, or whatever. So it seems very appropriate to understand it, in light of other passages on the subject. We do not want to lift passages out of the Bible, out of context, so we take the entire word of God to be a commentary on itself.
Example: "Children obey your parents" is one principle we could find several times. And "Obey God rather than man" [when there is a conflict, in a choice, between the two] is another principle we can find several times. Right? So if a parent tells their child to go out and steal, the child might say "well then help me understand the verse that says 'don't steal'" The parent replies "Why not forget about the don't steal verses for the time, and focus on the other references to obeying your parents". You see the analogy? You can't "only focus" on one passage, if ....... in fact ...... there is a connection and complementary issue between them.
Example: "Children obey your parents" is one principle we could find several times. And "Obey God rather than man" [when there is a conflict, in a choice, between the two] is another principle we can find several times. Right? So if a parent tells their child to go out and steal, the child might say "well then help me understand the verse that says 'don't steal'" The parent replies "Why not forget about the don't steal verses for the time, and focus on the other references to obeying your parents". You see the analogy? You can't "only focus" on one passage, if ....... in fact ...... there is a connection and complementary issue between them.
Ma Betty, I look forward to your info, after you've studied it. Yes, no doubt, it is "difficult to explain". But experiential feeling-related proofs, are not to be our absolute proofs. Lest we merely be carried away on feelings and experience. Our doctorine and belief is based on fact, not feeling, as I'm sure you would agree. And that "fact" is the revealed word of God, as we all know. So therefore, I can not rest my decision on other people's "experience" or to "try it", etc... Example: No more so than if a cult member came to you (and was clearly in an aberrant cult), they too could say to you: "I know this is true, because I felt it, it gave me joy, you just need to try it, the devil doesn't want you to believe, etc...." You might tell that person "but your cult directly contradicts the word of God", to which they might reply "but I feel so good, and I've seen miracles by our cult leader, and I dance, etc...". You can see, from that example, that no amount of "feeling" or "emotional experience" on the part of the non-Christian cult, would "make it right". Because in that case, the word of God is the barometer, NOT feeling and experience, right? That cult member's "experience" would not make their doctorine necessarily right, right?
So, don't get "lost in the example", I'm not saying you're into a cult. I'm only trying to shed light on the issue of giving experiences and feeling related answers, rather than appealing to a biblical expose, to answer an issue.
When you'e had time to delve into the scriptural matter, I look forward to your insight.
So, don't get "lost in the example", I'm not saying you're into a cult. I'm only trying to shed light on the issue of giving experiences and feeling related answers, rather than appealing to a biblical expose, to answer an issue.
When you'e had time to delve into the scriptural matter, I look forward to your insight.
A
Anonymous
Guest
I know God is real, Tom, and I know the Baptism of His Holy Spirit is real and I don't go just by feeling good......Can I give you Scriptures to prove my point? I am not sure as I can prove it to myself, but proving it to others is difficult unless they experience the Holy Ghost Baptism themselves! A Christian will show the fruits of God's Spirit as well as the gifts....some or all! This is by the calling of God to serve Him in the capacity that He wants us to do for our good and for His purpose! (Romans: 8 (2 )
An unbeliever or an unsaved person will have some fruits of the Spirit but really does not have them through God's Holy Spirit until saved from all their sins, as there is some good and some bad in all of us! That is why we must grow in the faith and knowledge of God's Word, daily, after we receive His saving grace and do His Will by obedience to and faith in Christ Jesus!
I will try my best to study the Scriptures you have asked for info on the subject of the Spiritual gifts, especially of the the one of Speaking in tongues to be truly saved! I still believe this is just one of the gifts and when we have this gift it is a sign to unbelievers that God is real and for the Christians to receive comfort and peace in their trials by the edification of the Church Body which we all go through from time to time. Faith and works go together and we prove who we are in Christ by using them for the glory and praise of God, our Heavenly Father!
People can believe or not believe in the power of God's Holy Spirit but He does give us power to endure and overcome and I am not of a cult! There are so many different beliefs even in the same faiths of Baptists, Pentecostals, Catholics and so on.....that is why there are so many different churches....But the main Church we should all belong to is the Body of Christ to Whom we belong when we accept Him as Savior and Lord of our lives by believing faith in Jesus and by the leading and guiding of the Holy Spirit of God! We can only overcome through Him and have everlasting life with Jesus forever more!
Does this include that we must speak in tongues.....I don't think so, but that is my opinion, for there are many gifts and God gives one or all of them to whoever he wants to serve Him faithfully in spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the whole world! I have several gifts including Speaking in Tongues, but that doesn't mean I am greater than anyone else who is a true Christian serving God! We can only serve in what we know at the time we are saved and then we must grow in truth and knowledge to have godly wisdom for a better and blessed life! That is why we must ask, seek and search and study the Bible, diligently, to show ourselves approved of God as a workmen that needs not be ashamed of the Gospel! The more we draw nearer to Him, the more He will draw nearer to us! I love it when my Lord and Savior elates me up higher into His Spiritual realm as I pray, seek and serve Him, gladly! Do I know everything? OH NO! I am learning more and more just like anyone else who wants to be nearer to God and serve Him more faithfully by our believing faith in Jesus Christ!
I will end here and study when I can see better....I have a sinus headache today....(satan doesn't want me to study or pray) and my eyes are very weak......But I will....just give me a couple of days to pray, seek the will of my Father and study and I will try to do my best to get back with you! Actually, I really have trouble understanding what you have posted and really want to understand from the Scriptures to prove your point as you gather with others in studying and discussing the Bible! Sometimes, just have to take some teachings by faith or keep asking God until He gives us the answers we are seeking!
May God Bless! Amen! Ma Betty
)An unbeliever or an unsaved person will have some fruits of the Spirit but really does not have them through God's Holy Spirit until saved from all their sins, as there is some good and some bad in all of us! That is why we must grow in the faith and knowledge of God's Word, daily, after we receive His saving grace and do His Will by obedience to and faith in Christ Jesus!
I will try my best to study the Scriptures you have asked for info on the subject of the Spiritual gifts, especially of the the one of Speaking in tongues to be truly saved! I still believe this is just one of the gifts and when we have this gift it is a sign to unbelievers that God is real and for the Christians to receive comfort and peace in their trials by the edification of the Church Body which we all go through from time to time. Faith and works go together and we prove who we are in Christ by using them for the glory and praise of God, our Heavenly Father!
People can believe or not believe in the power of God's Holy Spirit but He does give us power to endure and overcome and I am not of a cult! There are so many different beliefs even in the same faiths of Baptists, Pentecostals, Catholics and so on.....that is why there are so many different churches....But the main Church we should all belong to is the Body of Christ to Whom we belong when we accept Him as Savior and Lord of our lives by believing faith in Jesus and by the leading and guiding of the Holy Spirit of God! We can only overcome through Him and have everlasting life with Jesus forever more!
Does this include that we must speak in tongues.....I don't think so, but that is my opinion, for there are many gifts and God gives one or all of them to whoever he wants to serve Him faithfully in spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the whole world! I have several gifts including Speaking in Tongues, but that doesn't mean I am greater than anyone else who is a true Christian serving God! We can only serve in what we know at the time we are saved and then we must grow in truth and knowledge to have godly wisdom for a better and blessed life! That is why we must ask, seek and search and study the Bible, diligently, to show ourselves approved of God as a workmen that needs not be ashamed of the Gospel! The more we draw nearer to Him, the more He will draw nearer to us! I love it when my Lord and Savior elates me up higher into His Spiritual realm as I pray, seek and serve Him, gladly! Do I know everything? OH NO! I am learning more and more just like anyone else who wants to be nearer to God and serve Him more faithfully by our believing faith in Jesus Christ!
I will end here and study when I can see better....I have a sinus headache today....(satan doesn't want me to study or pray) and my eyes are very weak......But I will....just give me a couple of days to pray, seek the will of my Father and study and I will try to do my best to get back with you! Actually, I really have trouble understanding what you have posted and really want to understand from the Scriptures to prove your point as you gather with others in studying and discussing the Bible! Sometimes, just have to take some teachings by faith or keep asking God until He gives us the answers we are seeking!
May God Bless! Amen!
Ma Betty
A
Anonymous
Guest
Thanks Sister Theresa for explaining speaking in tongues to Tom, as it is much better than I could have or can! I know that I know, but truly difficult to explain to those who don't believe or refuse to believe (have closed minds to what God's Holy Spirit has for their enjoyment and peace that passes all understanding! ) !
I was going through a very difficult time because of my ex's filing for divorce and my brother, Larry, and Sister-in-Law, Wanda, took me to a full gospel church in Newburg, MO. Long ways to travel but it did me a world of good (so to speak)! I drove down and back 2-1/2 hours each way by myself many, many times, because it was where I was receiving the goodness and blessings of God! The prayers were awesome and by the laying of hands upon me and prophecying really helped me and let me know God's Holy Spirit was real and after I prayed and prayed for the Baptism of the Holy Ghost one night alone in my bed, He filled me full and gave me some gifts to use for my edification and for His purpose! If Speaking in Tongues is needed to be saved along with believing faith in Jesus Christ, then He will lead us on the right path to receive all that He has for us to worship and serve Him in Spirit and in Truth! If not, then many are saved by Jesus' blood only and not by their works, but good works follow those saved with the gifts working miracles in others who need a loving touch from God Jehovah! I believe speaking in tongues is one of the gifts, as Paul states that he speaks in tongues but if there is not the love of Christ with it, then it avails nothing! That is why he says: We should seek for the higher gifts that profit a man more than just speaking in tongues!
Thank you again and I believe this should answer both Tom's and DK's questions! My mind doesn't work as well as it used to do because of body weakness and ill health, but I still know Who my Lord and Savior is and He is Jesus, God born in the flesh, for the saving of souls by taking all our sins upon the Cross of Calvary, for He was sinless and could take them upon Himself that we might be saved, but doesn't mean we are saved until we believe and accept Him by faith as the One, True God of heaven and earth! Amen! May God Bless and fill you with His Holy Spirit giving you grace and knowledge more and more! Amen!
I love you in the love of Christ Jesus, as my Sister in the Lord,
Ma Betty
I was going through a very difficult time because of my ex's filing for divorce and my brother, Larry, and Sister-in-Law, Wanda, took me to a full gospel church in Newburg, MO. Long ways to travel but it did me a world of good (so to speak)! I drove down and back 2-1/2 hours each way by myself many, many times, because it was where I was receiving the goodness and blessings of God! The prayers were awesome and by the laying of hands upon me and prophecying really helped me and let me know God's Holy Spirit was real and after I prayed and prayed for the Baptism of the Holy Ghost one night alone in my bed, He filled me full and gave me some gifts to use for my edification and for His purpose! If Speaking in Tongues is needed to be saved along with believing faith in Jesus Christ, then He will lead us on the right path to receive all that He has for us to worship and serve Him in Spirit and in Truth! If not, then many are saved by Jesus' blood only and not by their works, but good works follow those saved with the gifts working miracles in others who need a loving touch from God Jehovah! I believe speaking in tongues is one of the gifts, as Paul states that he speaks in tongues but if there is not the love of Christ with it, then it avails nothing! That is why he says: We should seek for the higher gifts that profit a man more than just speaking in tongues!
Thank you again and I believe this should answer both Tom's and DK's questions! My mind doesn't work as well as it used to do because of body weakness and ill health, but I still know Who my Lord and Savior is and He is Jesus, God born in the flesh, for the saving of souls by taking all our sins upon the Cross of Calvary, for He was sinless and could take them upon Himself that we might be saved, but doesn't mean we are saved until we believe and accept Him by faith as the One, True God of heaven and earth! Amen! May God Bless and fill you with His Holy Spirit giving you grace and knowledge more and more! Amen!
I love you in the love of Christ Jesus, as my Sister in the Lord,
Ma BettyYes, her answer (dialogued below) is a compelling answer to why I Cor. 12:30 doesn't say, what it seems to say. Ie.: it seems to say that not all will speak in tongues. But the way she expands on that, is that this otherwise seemingly straight-forward statement, actually *means* that each individual will not have it as his/her "primary" gift, yet *all* will have it. I can not see where the passage prohibits this take on the passage. Yet I don't see where it demands it either. It's sort of like one of those "here's what it says, but here's what it really means" type things.
I welcome anyone else's take on that rationale, for why everyone should or can speak in tongues. Ie.: we all have all the gifts, but just to varying degrees. Ie.: none of us is "excused" from faith, so to speak, yet it's listed as a "gift". Or the gift of "helps" does not mean that everyone else sits around and does absolutely nothing, and lets those with the gift of helps do everything. Or those who are "evangelists", might excel an this, yet any of us is still not prhobited from talking to another about Jesus, etc... So too, does the argument go, that to say that "not all have the gift of tongues", doesn't mean, that "no all have the gift of tongues", but rather, that they don't have it as their PRIMARY gift.
Am I understanding the position correctly? And how would anyone who digresses from this see the matter?
thanx!
I welcome anyone else's take on that rationale, for why everyone should or can speak in tongues. Ie.: we all have all the gifts, but just to varying degrees. Ie.: none of us is "excused" from faith, so to speak, yet it's listed as a "gift". Or the gift of "helps" does not mean that everyone else sits around and does absolutely nothing, and lets those with the gift of helps do everything. Or those who are "evangelists", might excel an this, yet any of us is still not prhobited from talking to another about Jesus, etc... So too, does the argument go, that to say that "not all have the gift of tongues", doesn't mean, that "no all have the gift of tongues", but rather, that they don't have it as their PRIMARY gift.
Am I understanding the position correctly? And how would anyone who digresses from this see the matter?
thanx!
dirtdigginlady
New member
all of those gifts listed in I Cor are gifts given for the Church - the edifying of the body of Christ when it comes together. However tongues can be a wonderful tool for me in my private prayer and praise time just between me and God. I guess faith is the easiest one for me to use as the Bible say to every man is given a measure of faith. However some have the gift of faith. God bless you Tom!!!