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Question for those of the Pentecostal/charismatic persuasion:

speak in tongues probably many more that don't than do. Many will never believe in this gift and I know they are good people. However, what I personally would say is why would you not want everything that God has for you? It's a lovely blessing to have in your life and personally I want all I can get from God. I love to spend time in his divine presence in praise and worship and most times my heart is overwhelmed and my fleshly body doesn't know how to praise him adequately but the Holy Spirit sure does.
 
what is it so hard to understand about corinth.1 chap.12 verse 30:look:you keep going around the same mountain again.not every christian is given the gifts of the spirits , so?you are getting hung up on tongues, as i have said before a message in tongues is given to certain christians to bring a message to the the church body.that does not mean a none speaking tongue christian is lesser in the eyes of the almight god.not every christian was called to be a pastor.so ,not every christain desires "the baptistism of the holy spirit with the evidence of speaking in an unknow tongue".the more you seek god the more he will manifest himself to anyone, the more you seek him the closer he comes to you.to certain christians god reveals the super natural side of him.when you get to the point of frustation because you cannot get enough of the lord -----------look out he will show you miracles and wonders you have never seen in this life.you see so many christains do not believe there is a super natural side of god.the old testament is full of wonders they still exsist today ,but no one cares ,but a few ones.the ones that persist are the ones that the lord will reward for seeking him.god knows the heart of every man he knows what you need before you speak.SEEK AFTER GOD WITH ALL YOUR MIGHT HE IS A REWARDER FOR THOSE THAT SEEK HIM!!!:crylol: SEARCH FOR THIS BOOK"THE GOD CHASERS"BY TOMMY TENNEY ALSO "GOOD MORNING,HOLY SPIRIT"BY BENNY HINN.SEEK THIS BOOKS AND YOU WILL UNDERSTAND HOW THE HOLYSPIRIT WORKS.:thumbup:
 
I could sit here all night long, if I had the desire to do so and time permitted, and type you a book of scriptures along with references and back ups. But, Tom, I believe you are trying to waaaay over analyze this, pick apart every dot and tiddle, and maybe enjoy the debate just a little too much. I will be glad to give you some of the answers you seek (if and when I have time, but will not debate nor argue), but when it comes right down to it, the baptism in the Holy Spirit is received by faith, just like your salvation. It is pure and simple. You either believe and receive it with childlike faith, just as you did salvation... or you don't. There is no secret formula, no insider secret, no magical potion. The Pharisees constantly tried to debate Jesus concerning the "Law" and spiritual/religious matters... to no gain. To do so only causes strife, splits, and more wranglings. I'm not saying this is what you are doing, but it could easily be turned into that direction. I believe you are trying to understand and make an "educated" decision (and that is always a good thing... to a point), however, the things of the Spirit are spiritually discerned and are often not understood with our own understanding. If you are going to try to analyze this to death and have too many doubts about it, then it's probably never going to become a reality for you. It is all right there in the Word and we either accept it or we don't. Yes, get understanding. Yes, try the spirits. Yes, study to show yourself approved. But in the end, you either believe it and receive it by faith in what the Word says... or you don't.

I am in a hurry right now and have not had time to read all the postings so I might end up repeating things others have said. I do not have my Bible nearby at this time and am not able to give reference to scriptures, but I will do what I can.

From what little I have read, I believe dirtdigginlady has given you some excellent and very accurate answers. I didn't read every word of her replies (due to lack of time) but I would have given you the very same answers on most of the things I read over.

* No, I do NOT believe that one must be baptized in the Holy Ghost in order to be saved. When a person is saved, the Spirit of God comes to dwell in that person. The baptism in the Spirit is a completely different event.

* Can an unsaved person be baptized in the Spirit? No. Salvation is a prerequisite.

* Does being baptized in the Spirit make you more holy? More special, etc? Not necessarily, but it certainly CAN if you choose to let it do so. It is up to each and every individual how much of God they allow into their lives, and it is up to each and every individual what they allow God to do through them. This baptism is for empowering us to do... whatever it is God would have us to do, plus an empowering to live a holier life. That doesn't mean all who are "empowered" actually take advantage of the empowering. I've seen "Holy Ghost Christians" live like the pure devil! But I have also seen the baptism turn lives around.

* There are different types of tongues. One is for the individual... in their own communication with God, their own prayer closet. Their own praise and worship time. Many of us do not hesitate to use it (in a low voice) at church. No interpretation is needed for that, but it can be very exciting if the Lord allows/gives you the interpretation. There is also the ministry gift of tongues. That type is used, for example, in a church setting. That type of tongues needs to be interpreted. It could be used to deliver a message to A church as a whole, or to THE Church as a whole. Even to a group of individuals. Might be a word of prophesy, might be a word of encouragement or confirmation, or could even be some type of warning. It can also used as a sign to an unbeliever. No, all do NOT have the ministry gift of tongues. But the "prayer language" tongues is available to all who are baptized in the Spirit... if they choose to act on it by faith.

* I do believe that speaking in tongues is evidence of being baptised in the Spirit... not of the indwelling Spirit that came to live within when you were saved.

* Yes, there are fakes out there. Believe me, you will know the difference in the fake stuff and the God stuff.

* Not for today? WRONG! It's more for today than ever before!!!!! And where does the Bible tell you it ceased?????????

* Showboat? Well, there might be some out there who want to showboat, but just put them in the same category as the fakes. They might not be faking it, but God isn't getting the glory from it when they showboat.

* Don't believe in it? Then stay away from it and don't fret over it. If you believe it and want it, it's yours. Don't doubt someone else's experience just because you haven't experienced it. I've never seen an angel, but I believe they exist. I've never been to the moon, but I believe there are people who have. One thing about it, whether you choose to believe it or not - it's real, I have experienced it (and continue to walk in it), and no one, with their unbelief or anything else, can ever take it away from me... just like my salvation. Anyone who tries to convince me otherwise is too late and is wasting their time, because I know what I've got!

I could go on and on but there is really no need and I am completely out of time.

Lisa
 
Thanks Lisa....you helped explain it to Tom also.....confirming a lot of what Theresa, Semperfi and I have posted! Like you said it is real and no one can take it away! The Spiritual power of God is awesome and with it we can endure and overcome far easier than we can without His Holy Spirit's power dwelling within us, Who is our Comforter to help us! Amen! May God Bless! :angel: Ma Betty
 
I have something I would like to send to you if you don't mind sharing your address with me. You can either send me a private message or email me thanks and God bless.
 
Going around the mountain again? Yes, and here's why. Because those that would desire the non-pentecostal non-charismatics to experience this, do indeed seem to be "hung up on tongues". Take for example your own post (re-read it and you will see): The inference is VERY clear: You say (for one example): ".... the more you seek god the more he will manifest himself to anyone.... " Since the topic here is the filling of the holy spirit, and the role tongues plays in that, the inference is hard to escape: Anyone who is NOT of the pentecostal persuasion, by mere definition, "hasn't" sought God. He "doesn't" have the manifestations of fullness, he does NOT have the "reward" for those seeking Him, etc.... Don't you see that this does indeed put some Christians (when this mindset is taken to its logical conclusion) at a "second best" or "not quite ascended" or whatever?

So you see, it's not non-pentecostals who are "making this a big deal", it seems to be the pentecostals who have made it a big deal, by interpretting that this is prescribed for all, and if you didn't or don't do it, then you're just powerless, missing out, etc... And think of it: although you might say that they are still "saved" and "no less in God's eyes", yet, what Christian in their right mind WOULDN'T want to be closer to God? Thus the inference: "Dude, you're blowing it if if you're not of a pentecostal persuasion". This is the reason for me being "hung up on tongues", is because the Pentecostal persuasion folks themselves, have made it this way :(
 
Wow ...... again: The very implicit statement that those who are not of the pentecostal persuasion: They haven't reached this ascended plateu. They are settling for "second best". They just don't have the fullness *unless* they speak in tongues. Do you see how this truly paints a "haves" and "have nots" scenario? There can be no other gifts that evidence the spirit in a person, except tongues. And if you don't have this gift, you therefore do not have the fullness. And if you don't have the fullness, you are not experiencing God's best.

Well, although I can grapple with your answer that you say that I Cor 12:30 (despite how it may sound) does not, in fact, mean that all shouldn't speak with tongues. You walk a fine line by saying that this refers to a persons "primary" gift, verses their "lesser gift", or whatever. Thus skirting the "rule" that not all will speak in tongues. Interesting explanation that I am still grappling with, and studying, and will get back to the forumites on this.

But in the meantime, I hope you can see that it becomes very condescending (forgive me for using that word, but it's hard to escape), that ....... while we can all agree it's a grey area of doctorine (sincere believers on both sides of the grey area), yet the stance clearly inferred by the proponents, is that there is this "have" and "have not" status system.

I suppose if this whole thing is true, then it's true: those that are in this percentage of doctronical interpretation, have some supernatural power, in contrast to those that believe the fullness is manifested in any number of gifts (and not just tongues), are basically powerless, joyless, prayerless, missing out, etc.... I do not know what other conclusion to come to, as this is what I see clearly inferred in multiple persons answers.
 
Lisa, thanx for your input. Sincere analyzing (as opposed to in-sincere analyzing/questioning as was done by the pharisees) is ...... I would think .......... in order. You do say we should seek to understand, be educated, and basically "rightly divide" the word of God. Yes, there is always that final "leap" we (even in our initial salvation experience) need to make by faith. It can not be put into a test tube and analyzed. Or in the example you give: we are not "shown" angels, yet we believe in these things, etc...

So at what point do we abandon reason, biblical study, etc... and just adhere to whatever another person says is joyous, empowering, etc... I don't know. I guess, for me, it's when I can see a clear cut answer to my questions. To deny that to a searcher, would be like if I asked you to be baptized in molasses. And if you tried to object and say the Bible says water is sufficient, I could tell you the same things: "Lisa, you're over-analyzing this way too much, just like the pharisees, every jot and tittle, etc... Don't you want to have power, or do you?" At some point, you would continue to return to the scripture questioning baptism in mollasses, and each time, the proponents would tell you to "take it by faith, and not be so legalistic".

I hope you see the analogy, that I need to be able to ask through these matters. And it is very fruitful, as I have been given much to think about. Basically, so far, it's how the "seeming" statement that not all will speak in tongues, in I Cor 12:30, does not say what it appears to say. The reasons given for this take on the verse, are compelling.

A part of me wants to say this: That would be like: If someone said that even though the Bible says not to steal, yet it's ok to steal on Thursdays. Because even though the "don't steal" command, *appears* to be a blanket command, yet what it *means* is, not to steal on the other days of the week. Thursdays, of course, are the exception to this rule. Now of course this is silly. But a part of me wonders why this doesn't apply to I Cor. 12:30? But I can already (I think) forsee the answer: That there does indeed seem to be various USES of tongues, and not just one USE (or type, or whatever you want to call it). So basically, the person interpretting the verse in this way, just needs to say, that this only applies to one usage. As I said, I can not see where this interprettation is permitted, nor can I see where it is denied. I am still looking into this, and will get back to the forumites on this thought. If anyone has a take on this way I Cor 12:30 can seem to "not apply", let me know.

I guess I'm currently of the position that tongues is just one of the gifts, and that ANY of the gifts are evidence of the Holy Spirit. I realize the Acts passages that some will turn to, to show what seems to show otherwise. To which, as before, I have noted that there were also Acts passages where no such phenonemon was recorded during fillings, salvations, etc... Leaving me to wonder: "are the few (2 or 3?) instances where it was recorded as co-occuring with a filling of the spirit "DESCRIPTIVE" or "PRESCRIPTIVE"? And by that I mean, if you say it's "prescriptive", then why not go the next step, and say that we should also expect flames of fire to appears? (because, logically, that too must have happened later in Acts as well, but is simply implied to have happened, but just not recorded?)

Forgive me for asking questions, but I am trying to be logical about this, and I know no other way than by asking questions, and examining answers in the light of logic, cross-references, etc....
 
you got mail :) thanx dirt-digging-lady!
 
Trying to scan over some of the posts I didn't get a chance to fully read last night. If this forum had a "LIKE" button, like Facebook does, where you could click LIKE to let the person know you liked what they said... I'd click the LIKE button here. Perfect answer.

Lisa
 
The only thing I can say now is that Jesus was filled with the Holy Ghost during His water baptism....when He came up out of the water, God's Holy Spirit landed upon Him like a Dove and God spoke, "This is my beloved Son in Whom I am well pleased! He was filled with the Holy Spirit and anointed to go forth and do what God had sent Him forth to do and to which He willingly agreed to! He was given the strength to overcome the wilderness where He was tried and passed the test! We who have been baptized in the Holy Spirit of God are anointed to serve Him in the capacity He calls us forth to do! Jesus' apostles weren't filled at that time but later or during the Day of Pentecost, they were infilled with the Holy Spirit to speak in diffent tongues as a witness to those from different areas who did not speak in their language! This was done for their calling to go and witness to the nations and this is the same as today, many are called but few will answer and go forth and serve Jesus in the gifts that they would be anointed with, but didn't believe by faith nor accepted their calling!

We can each one have the gift of salvation by faith accepting and believing in Who Jesus truly is and that is the same way of receiving the other gifts once we are saved and forgiven of all our sins and willing to obey and serve Jesus in whatever way our Heavenly Father has called us forth to do! We must be willing and give Him our all......holding nothing back from Him....for He knows everything about each of us anyway! I believe you are trying too hard to understand and are asking Christians what they believe and their interpretation of the Scriptures in I Co: 13 & 14 and Acts: 2! You need not accept our opinions....go to God in sincere prayer as you seek and search for the answer of whether we all need to speak in tongues to be saved or not, by asking Him and He will give you the answer.......believe me He will, if you are open to what He has to say and reveal to you by His Holy Spirit leading and guiding you into all truth! I'm not any better than any other Christian, except for having the Power of God which enables me to go forth more bravely to spread the Gospel of Jesus and to encourage others and everyone can have this Supernatural Power by seeking and asking of God through faithful and sincere prayer!

May God Bless you to have the knowledge and godly wisdom to seek, ask and receive the Baptism of the Holy Ghost power of God and the gifts that He will give to you, as you obey and seek more of Him! Amen!

:angel: Ma Betty
 
Ma Betty, thanx for your encouragement. I not only want to be filled with the Holy Spirit, not just once, but daily. It is not just a one-time occurance, but an on-going occurance, as we are "leaky vessels". That's just my view, and I know that others will say it's a one-time occurance, on-par with the initial salvation experience, etc.... That part is not at issue here (we all want to be filled with the holy spirit). I'm just seeking to understand if tongues is a necessary proof, and the only proof, that this has occured, in-light of I Cor. 12:30.

I am still mulling over the rationale that's been presented to me here (thanx everyone) and will be studying it from that vantage point.
 
You are welcome, Tom! We each can go to His fountain of refreshing water every morning and renew ourselves with His refilling by reading, studying and learning more of His Holy Word! God's mercies are renewed each morning! Praise His Holy name, Jesus! Amen! :angel: Ma Betty
 
As I said I don't mean to offend anyone, but for the life of me, I cannot see why or what purpose speaking in tongues as some call it serves any purpose. It is not Biblical. Say we are in a church service, and the speaker starts this "speaking in tongues". Who can understand what he just said. Okay, now we have some person who is an "interpreter" who somehow happens to know what the speaker just said, and he tells the congregation. Why did the speaker just not speak it in a understandable language? I have worked with the Brooklyn Tabernacle, and Pastor Cymbala, during one of the Tuesday night prayer meetings "spoke in tongues" or something to that effect. Anyway, no one knew what he said. If God, as some believe, gives the person this ability to speak in jibberish, why does not God give that same person the ability to speak in many different languages in order to reach those in the audience that may speak some foreign language. IF YOU SPEAK IN TONGUES, DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING? DO YOU THINK IF YOU HAVE THIS ABILITY TO "SPEAK IN TONGUES" THAT SHOWS YOU ARE MORE HOLY THAN OTHERS. SORRY, BUT I MUST AGREE TO DISAGREE WITH THOSE WHO SAY "SPEAKING IN TONGUES" IS BIBLICAL OR RELEVANT TO OUR DAY AND AGE. This has been a great discussion point, but I cannot see any post that makes a undisputable point that this is a Biblical truth. Sorry if I have offended some of my friends here, but I said long ago, I speak my mind, and I say what I feel God leads me to say.
 
you saying speaking in tongues is NOT Biblical is just totally WRONG. It is very Biblical!!!! And you cannot just take these scriptures out of the bible or say well they are not for our day. You just do not have any understanding of it and do not have a mindset to want to understand it. However for you to say it
is NOT BIBLICAL is walking a very fine line that you need to be very careful on. If you would stop and think about it God did some very strange things both in the old testament and new and you asking Why, why why not just do it like this...... would be the same as saying why did God hang his son on a cross ....why didn't he just do thus and so. God is God and he can choose to do it any way he wants and many times he is a mysterious God but he is always right and wonderful.
 
where you got those ideas from. I was in no way being condesending to anyone. I have no condesending feelings at all to those who do not believe or want anything to do with tongues. I simple said it is a wonderful thing to have so why would you not want it. I in no way mean to divide the haves and the haves not. Again I don't know how you came to that conclusion from my few simple words. However, if that is truly what you got out of them then I honestly apologize for my choice of words.
 
Theresa, You're not going to get through to this guy. He enjoys the argument way too much and I really feel that his goal is to argue, and not to honestly seek an answer. It isn't worth it. Those who will believe, will believe. Those who don't... don't. I can see that, no matter what anyone says, whether they be FOR or AGAINST the baptism in the Spirit and/or tongues, he immediately comes back at them with with condescending remarks, the same questions over and over, argument after argument (that really has no foundation and only leads to more pointless bickering), and he lumps either side into one mould or the other. He apparently thinks he has both sides all figured out, putting words in our mouths as to what we would say and telling us what we all believe. Since he seems to know so much about all of it to begin with, let him put it all together and make up his own mind. He has been allowed to stir up things and feelings on the forum that should never have been stirred up. He has been given the scriptures. He has a Bible. He has the same God and the same Spirit to give him the answers if he truly wants them. Let it go and don't play the game with him any more. Earlier today I had thought about taking the time to outline all of it (the baptism, gifts, types, reasons, examples, references, etc.) for him and some others using nothing but the Word, but feel that the Lord stopped me in my tracks and let me know it wasn't necessary because, no matter the pretense of this discussion, Satan has slithered in and turned it into no other purpose than to cause strife. Tom isn't going to accept any answer from either side and will only continue to keep it going until it ends up hurting friendships/relationships, if it hasn't already accomplished this. As for the rest of us, no matter what is said, we aren't going to change our minds (either side). It's not worth it. Save yourself the trouble, the bad feelings, the strife, and the time. We've done our part by giving scripture & testimony. I don't believe God would want any of us arguing over it anyway. Tom has the info & scriptures, the testimonies, and the tools (Bible, prayer, etc.) he needs to make his decision... let him make it. :)

Lisa
 
Many years ago when I arrived home from school I was hearing sounds coming from inside the house my mother was alone and praying....speaking in tongues........I quess this was prayer tongues Lisa spoke of ....This was between her and God......no one was there with her she was in a very special place with her prayers........It was a language type communication with God Our Father....I asked her about it,as I remember that was pretty much her response with tears of joy in her eyes, that told me volumns.
I had an experience with the awesome power of God at about 9 years old.......I'll tell y'all about it some time.......God Bless All......Amen
In my fathers house are many mansions......we see but a poor reflection one day we will see clearly.........Dan
 
wow :(
 
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