Question for those of the Pentecostal/charismatic persuasion:

[Tom_in_CA]

Yes dirt-dig-lady: the cessasionist viewpoint has a hard time showing, biblically, that it's not for today (ie.: that it ceased with the completion of the canon at the end of the first century) When DK asks: "someone please show me where this is in the Bible" etc... leading to an obvious glaring mistake, that yes, it's in the Bible multiple times. So I think what DK means to say/ask is "show me where it's for today". And not that it's unbiblical, not there, etc...., because obviously, it is there. It's just a question of the rules regarding it, etc....

 

[dirtdigginlady]

n/t

 

[dirtdigginlady]

the Bible has to say: Right after the incident of the day of Pentecost ........

Acts 2 - 38, 39 Then Peter said unto them, repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to ALL that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

That is so simple if you want to believe the word of God. If you don't then it's not for you.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Yes, in which case, he would be the first to know, that a quick look at a concordance shows ......... it's there. Which is why I believe he poorly worded his post, and meant to question if it's for today. Because yes, of course, it's talked about in the Bible. That part is not in question (even he would know that). It's more a matter of what do we do with this in-so-far as: is it prescribed for everyone, is it for today, and if so, to what rules, etc....

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Conclusion:

Thank you every one of you for trying to answer my questions. In an attempt to get to the root of my question, it has been necessary to disect the answers given to me (ie.: cross-examine the answers given to me). This will, of course, unfortunately, lead some to conclude I'm trying to be argumentative. That was a outcome I could not avoid (lest I not be able to ask questions, scrutinize the answers, etc.....).

But since this forum is not meant for deeper theological studies, I will have to take my quest for knowledge to venues more suited for this. I had just wanted to know the "rank and files" take on a particular problem I thought I saw. You have all done a good job of that.

You have given me food for thought, that there does indeed seem to be an answer for the I Cor. 12:30 dilemna. I would like to disect this answer more, to make sure it holds water. But that will have to be by picking other brains, as this has been tapped out here. Any more trying to understand if the plausible explanation for this verse (how it really doesn't say what it seems to be saying) here, will no doubt lead to understandable feelings that I am not looking for an answer, but only want to stir a pot. That's not the case, but I can see where ........ in a forum like this, it's just not meant for super deep theological wrangling.

So please pray for me as I take your explanation for this verse, to deeper scrutiny. As I say: it's not an interpretation that can be disqaulified by the text (so far as I see now), nor is it an interpretation demanded by the text (so far as I can see). I am an analytical person, and want to be very careful where I stand on the issue, in light of: Acts 17:11 & II Tim 2:15. Please pray for me that I understand and apply the results of these things correctly. thanx!

 

[Anonymous]

Very good post, Dan, about your mother and I look forward to your post about your experience with God's awesome power at 9 years of age! I, too, had a wonderful experience at about that age also and have told it before but will tell it again if anyone is interested.....and I will tell everyone one thing....If you make a promise to God, He will see to it that you keep that promise even if it takes many years! I know as that is what happened to me! May God Bless! Amen! Ma Betty

 

[Anonymous]

I will pray for you to get understanding of what you want to know for sure and hope you come to a final answer that is approved of God. I am older now and don't analyze too much any more and just take the Bible Scriptues by faith! I studied it for 20 years are more, daily, and I learned a lot more in 20 years than I had in the first 50 years of my life! I thirsted after the righteousness of God and He gave it to me! I may err in some things, but I do know I am saved in Jesus, God has forgiven me of my sins, and I love Him with all my heart, mind, soul and strength! The Power of God's Holy Spirit just gives me more strength, wisdom and understanding when I need it and to be brave enough to face the enemy's attacks! Without God's Holy Spiritual Power I would fail too many times....but in Him I shall endure and overcome all things! May God Bless and lead you to where you can get the answers you need Theologically! Amen! I am not a Theologian and take God at His word by believing faith! One thing for sure I know Jesus loves me and I love Him and He is very real to me, Whose blessings for me are many! Ma Betty

 

[boxofchocolates]

Tom I'm praying for you......If you find the right folks and visit the right Church God may give you understanding about this that is beyond our words here......My little writings is to say this ,God's love for us is beyond anything we can comprehend,It can be felt much much better in my view of the big picture.....He will always let us know how close he is to us by His Holy Spirit......Wow that is an awesome feeling....creature of the universe and all things is dwelling inside of me.....The Love,Peace,Intelligence and awesome power is to much for our minds to comprehend at this time.....We will know all things when we get to Heaven....God please help me to be worthy of all that you have done for me now and in the ages to come thank you for all these Blessings Father In Jesus Name I Pray....Amen
Dan
PS we communicate by words God communicates to us by His Holy Spirit.......That is my view on this anyway.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

yes, salvation and the Holy Spirit's indwelling the believer is for all the generations following that, as the verse says. That is not what's at issue here, and not (if I can speak for DK) what he was disputing. The topic is: to what extent do tongues play in this: is it necessary for all, what are the rules, the role of it, etc.....

 

[Tom_in_CA]

"God communicates to us by His Holy Spirit......." Yes. And that "communication" can be by his already-revealed word (the Bible), and through the counsel of Godly persons (ie.: he speaks through others). Feelings, emotions, and experiences, are valid, insofar as they do not contradict God's word.

 

[Anonymous]

And who are the Godly persons who counsel.....those living in Jesus' righteousness of obedience and who are filled with His Holy Spirit and love God and are the called according to His purpose! Some speak in the flesh, so we need to know which spirit is speaking to us....whether it be of God or the devil! How do we know the difference? By the infilling or indwelling of God's Holy Spirit and the voice or spirit we hear must not go against God's Holy Word of absolute truth! May you find what you are seeking to know! May God Bless! Ma Betty

 

[TreasureDigger]

Tom, that post was originally intended to be sent as a PM to dirtdigginlady. At first I was going to say something different and that's why the reply showed up where it did - but after deciding to say what I did, I intended to copy and paste it into a PM. I got sidetracked just about the time I was ready to send it, lost sight of what I was doing and just hit post instead. It took quite awhile to even realize I had posted it publicly - for THAT, I apologize.

Lisa

 

[Mike from MI "Iron Brigade"]

n/t

 

[SEMPERFI61]

tom are you a pastor or rev.?the scriptures you speak off are so simple to understand sounds to me that you have not read the bible completely through?what church do you come from?have you experience salvation through THE LORD JESUS?IF SO ,WHEN WERE YOU SAVED?WHAT EVIDENCE DO YOU SEE THAT YOU ARE SAVED?HOW DO YOU KNOW WITHOUT A DOUBT THAT YOU ARE SAVED?EXPLAIN YOUR SALVATION EXPERIENCE TO US.WHAT BIBLE TRANSLATION DO YOU USE?MAYBE THROUGH THERAPY IT WILL EXPOSE WHAT SEEMS TO BE A METAL BLOCK OF SOME SORT.tell me what do you believe is GODS word to sinners?why did jesus have to died on the cross?appreciate your answers please

 

[DK]

Just soes you don't get your feelers hurt anymore, I mean to say, as Tom put it, that "Speaking in Tongues" is not Biblical for today. If you had read my earlier post and posts, that was a gift given to the Apostles so they could communicate in the different LANGUAGES of the day. Yep its in the Bible, but does not reflect today. You are going to believe what you want, and contrary to what some have said, "THIS GUY JUST WANTS TO ARGUE" IS CRAP. I WANT THE TRUTH OF GODS' WORD. If you are comfortable in believing in tongues, go for it. I will not post any more comment here.
God Bless You.

 

[SEMPERFI61]

wake up tom ,no one is saying you have to put tongues on a pillar and worship this giftLET ME TELL YOU FROM EXPERIENCE,YOU CAN BE CARNAL CHRISTIAN OR A PLAIN COULD CARE LESS CHRISTIAN AND NEVER GET CLOSER TO GODITS THE ONES THAT COME TO THE LORD WITH A BROKEN SPIRIT AND A CONTRITE HEART THAT GETS HIS ATTENTIONTHOSE ARE THE ONES THAT GOD BLESSES WITH HIS GIFTS!!!THATS JUST COMMON SENSE.evidently you have never had a close encounter with the holy-spirit.here's the secret to have an encounter with the holy spirit .# 1------you have to come to a point where you want so much of the lord that you are actually frustrated.# 2 you must have a hunger for the lord -----if not FORGET IT!!! READ THE BOOKS THAT I MENTION TO YOU.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Hi Semper, to answer your questions in their order:

1) I am not a pastor or reverend by profession I am self-employed .... I own a street sweeper company (paving and construction related work)

2) Yes I've read the Bible through several times. You say the verses should be easy to understand. You would be the first to acknowledge that each of us (yourself, myself, and everybody) would always tend to figure that our own views on scripture interpretation (how they are to be correctly understood and interpretted) are OF COURSE the "easy to understand" way they should be understood, right? This is, of course, human nature to believe that our own views are correct (lest we wouldn't believe them, in the first place! doh). And all other views are therefore wrong ("how come they just don't get it??). So please, understand, that there are grey areas in the Bible, that can be seen by reasonable people, in different ways. I suppose God could have made the Bible to be like a computer flow chart encyclopedic reference book, eh? So instead of dickering over something silly like "is one beer ok, as long as I'm in moderation?" or "how about movies, if they are G rated?" or "how loud should the music be in my church?" etc.... we could just turn to the alphabetic legalistic answers, and presto, have our doctorine indisputable, with no study needed. No need to ponder, think, etc... That would have made things simpler, eh? But no. Instead, God made his word in a flowing form, with parables, examples of peoples ups and downs, poetry, history, stories, and yes: some dry dusty rules, and a time-line we need to consider the context (ie.: we don't offer any animal sacrifices, etc...)

I wish I could say you have it 100% perfectly "figured out". I wish I could say I have it "100% perfectly figured out" too. But neither of us can. And to "figure it out", we seek counsel, and look to see how others see it. And if that takes back and forth Q&A to study a matter (put each others take on the matter to intellectual scrutiny) so be it. I mean, I could just as easily say to you "what's so hard to see? Why don't you get it?", but I am fully aware that my position is open to scrutiny, as I am not perfect. So please, if someone doesn't understand things the way you do, or is seeking to understand why/how you understand something a certain way, it doesn't mean they're stubborn, stupid, don't attend church, aren't saved, haven't read the bible, etc....

3. The church I "come from" is Shoreline Community Church, Monterey, CA

4. The evidence I see that I am saved is the fruits of God working in my life, in the ministries I work in (homeless ministry, and church volunteer work). Because left to my flesh, I'd be out metal detecting all the time, or enjoying the vices of the world, etc... Perfect? no. But feeling and seeing God's guidance and conviction? yes. If you mean, by your question of "what evidence?" the evidence of tongues? Then no, I do not have that evidence, if that's the answer your question was fishing for. But .... unless you're of the school of thought that says tongues is necessary for salvation, then .... perhaps that is not what you meant by the question?

5. "explain your salvation experience to us": On April 1st, 1976, at the age of 14, under the influence of an older cousin of mine, I prayed for God to save me, come into my heart, & forgive me of my sins. I still remember the feeling of ... something miraculous in feeling, like a "cloud nine" experience. It was as if I could feel a crushing weight of sin lifted, a clean-ness, a mind-rush, that I wasn't even expecting (so thus, it was not contrived or induced pyschology, positive thinking, etc...). In an instant, I realized, there really was a God, and I had really just prayed to a real and living God, and this is an eternal stakes issue. I went out the next day, to Jr. High school, with Bible in hand, and proceeded to tell one and all that they too had to come to Christ! It got to where no one in school wanted to see me coming, because I was the "bible thumper to be avoided" haha.

6. "What Bible translation do you use?" I use mostly the NIV. Although when studying on deeper levels, I cross-reference multiple versions.

7. Through therapy it will remove a mental block. Well gee, that's .... uh ..... nice. Thanx. Please refer to point # 2 above. Through therapy, I suppose, all the world would eventually believe exactly as you? I mean, c'mon semper fi, was that a really nice thing to say?

8. "tell me what you believe is God's word to sinners..." God's purpose to us sinners (all people) is the same as the purpose when he created the first man: to have a relationship, an outflow of his love, a creation to have a free will to give and receive love, etc... (lest he could have simply made robots). And we fallen beings, choose to reject him, and go our own way, given our free will to do so. And God, in addition to being loving, is also JUST, and does not "wink" at this sin. It has to have a penalty, (lest justice be a mere joke). Thus, to perfectly ful-fill that justice, that sin, does indeed, have a consequence/price, he came to earth in Human form, to be the perfect sacrifice for our sins. So the message to sinners, is to put your faith in that sacrifice, as it is a payment that you, yourself, can not make. And to show the fruits of that faith in Jesus, by a repentant lifestyle, practicing your gifts to advance the kingdom of God to others, etc....


Hope this answers all your questions.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

DK, well it's good that you acknowledge that you meant to say something different. Because taken litterally, it could have been initially construed that you didn't think the topic was even in the Bible at all. However, I knew from your PREVIOUS posts, that for you, it was more a matter of if-it's-for-today or not, NOT that it is "un-biblical" or "nowhere to be found in the Bible" or whatever. So you guys have this straighted out now, and it was/is a simple case of a mis-understood typo!

 

[steve in so la]

even here. I cannot imagine this subject - that is not of prime importance - being worth it to drive people away. Steve in so az

 

[4EverHis102399]

AMEN, Steve. Very simply and wonderfully said.