3RINGER said:
this took care of some other Q's I had thanks too Spoof.
Good read, Thanks Monte for the break down to his Q.
You're welcome, and if you don't mind I will just direct folks to this post on Findmall:
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?100,2305184,2305306#msg-2305306
This way they can read each Quote made separate from My Reply as it is a little confusing to folks the way it's posted here.
Now, to answer some of your questions:
3RINGER said:
Monte
Your break down is well appreciated. The 10x5.5 is the DD.
I like to use both the DD and Concentric 5½X10 coils.
[size=small]Side note: I haven't figured out why so many manufactures refer to their elliptically shaped coils backwards. 
You shop for 4X8 sheets of plywood, or you need to build with a 2X4 or a 4X6 or a 1X2, so to me, search coils would be, or should be, measured the same. Even Makro and Nokta do it when they describe their 'OOR' search coils in the accessories as 4.7X5.2, so I call these coils 5½X10 even though they and others measure or describe these backwards. Just like the stock 7X11 DD's aren't an 11X7 DD. [/size]
3RINGER said:
Due to all the reading along with downloading the manual was able to work through the setting in the test garden. Learning what each of those settings will do for me and when they will be needed is what will take time.
Not enough people devote the time to read, completely from front-to-rear, their User Manuals. If they would, many questions would be explained or answered and we wouldn't see or hear about as many things on forums or open discussions. Well written manuals from Nokta/Makro.
I sure wish everyone would learn their detectors as you are working at so their in-the-field hunting might be more efficient and meet the needs and demands a site might require to deal with bad ground and/or the type and density of the challenging debris.
3RINGER said:
One thing I noticed on one of my complex targets...three dug square nails with a coin in the middle, 2 nails above and to the side and one level with and next to the coin...the relic has that familiar blinding of the tones. I heard the iron mixing with the high tone, I really liked this in the Racer and to see it in the Relic was great. Next to it I have this same set up without the coin. Iron grunt with a false here and there but when turning on the target the false was either moving or not there...back to the coin / nail group and the coin did not move and was picked up in all directions but one and in that case it had what I would call a scratchy high tone mixed with iron if that makes sense.
How we handle trash calls for a lot of patience, and learning how to select the best search coil for the type and amount of trash a site holds.
It then calls for us to learn and know the strengths
and weaknesses of the different Discriminate search modes [size=small]
(be them a 2-Tone VCO enhanced or a 3-Tone processed audio response)[/size] so we are able to select the one which provides us the best performance for the coil used and type of trash encountered.
Dealing with any iron-based target is going to case us a lot of challenges because Iron/Ferrous objects have a different effect on an EMF [size=small]
(electromagnetic field)[/size] than a similar size and shape non-ferrous target. That's the main reason we have target Masking when hunting in iron infested sites. It's also a reason when dense iron locations are not going to be worked out until the iron junk has been dealt with, and that means removal.
The shape of targets cause problems, like many iron nails have the long shaft but a 90° positioned nail head. At times, this can cause a more conductive response and a higher [size=small]
(more than iron range)[/size] audio response and visual TID. Most of the "square nails" I have been finding in the old town sites I hunt [size=small]
(many of which are not squared but more flattish and not roundish)[/size] are easier to deal with and cleanly reject, if desired.
The closer to a desired non-ferrous target some ferrous junk might me, then more good-target masking will occur. The size, shape and orientation of iron junk to a desired target also has an effect on good-target masking. If positioned above a good target or below a good target, depending upon the type and size of the ferrous trash, you might not get even the slightest 'iffy' type good response form even a larger-size higher-conductive coin or other smaller object.
All we can to is formulate two or three known and 'practical' examples to use for detector comparison, that will always remain the same, and learn what strengths and weaknesses there are and know what we can do, if anything, to overcome them and achieve the best performance possible. then we have to keep in mind that there is NO 'perfect' detector, and that we will ALWAUS have good-target making as long as iron trash is present and ion a close-enough relationship with a desired target.
We can not duplicate every in-the-field possible encounter, so I suggest having two or three reasonable and repeatable 'test' scenarios to use, and then make a real-life effort to really learn more about our detectors and their abilities, and for me that means take them out detecting, be patient, and put in the time to learn how they handle different environments and various types of trash. Slowly and methodically work some areas that are just naturally littered and find what we can, learning along the way.
3RINGER said:
Working through the garden I also noticed something about sweep speed for the relic. Not sure if this is due to the higher kHz or just picking up more small items my other units are not seeing. This was done with the stock coil.
You didn't describe what you noticed about the Relic sweep speed. There are times and places, with a sparse amount of targets, where I will use a moderate sweep speed, but most f the time I am working in b=very trashy conditions, often with weds and brush to work around, and it really calls for a slow motion, methodical sweep speed to reasonably cover a hunt site and deal with challenging conditions.
3RINGER said:
Changed out to the 10x5.5 and heading back out now. This is the main coil I plan on using so this is what I'll work on the setting with. Can't see running Sen. high in the heavy nail area, would think less would do better. Is this what you are seeing when you hunt those type locations?
The 5½X10 search coil is a favorite of mine, and my 2nd most-use search coil size. I mainly hunt dense trash and heavy vegetation so the smaller
'OOR' on my CoRe and 5½" DD coils on my Racer 2, Gold Racer, Gold + and especially with my Relic are whet get the job done for me. Low-to-modest trashy sites, and especially those where the primary junk target is a nail or other wire-type iron, and the 5½X10 coil is put to work.
As for settings, we all will have our own desired opinions and selections, but for me, the gain is usually saved pretty high. My Relic turn-on Gain in Discrimination 3 is '99' and in a 2-Tone mode the turn-on setting is anywhere from '90' to '95.' Isn't it better to reduce it when hunting in heavy trash? Well, maybe at times, and for some people and for the coil used, and .... One thing I always try to do is hunt with the Gain as high as possible w/o good target masking.
If I have a low setting of, let's say, '50,' then I might wonder if there is any EMI or other source of instability around. I can slowly increase the gain a little at a time looking to see if and when I get to a setting that is unstable. Now I just turn the detector on and it is ready-to-go, but IF there is an EMI issue I will know it right away and can quickly reduce the gain just to the point of regaining stability. I have hunted this way for a couple of decades with several programmable models where I could store the turn-on settings.
3RINGER said:
After spending time with the known targets and working with settings I went to the location where some nice saves came from the iron. No where close to what I want to settle on but getting there slowly. Monte your right about the rusty tin. Rusty bottle cap showed to have a raspy sound at the start of the tone and at the end. It sounded like one tone with that effect front and back. Would not have thought this would pop out at only 3-4" with square nails showing in the loose dirt.
Rusty tin, and the crown-type, pry-off Bottle Caps are in that category as well, sure can be a real pain to deal with, but it is usually easier to use the smaller coil and hunt in the Disc. 3 Tone mode.
If the Disc. level is set low so you can hear iron [size=small]
(I run my ID Mask at '05' if I recall)[/size] and use the Iron Volume level set low [size=small]
(I have mine at '02' or '01' when it get too densely iron littered)[/size], then I can listen for the "duck squawk" audio you usually hear with a bit of the Low-Tone iron audio response just before, just after, or both when you encounter that rusty tin type flat iron or sheet iron. Usually it produced a noisy higher-tone TID from ± '84' to '96' but you can hear the Low-Tone indication blended in.
3RINGER said:
Need a better grasp on tone break and a few others. A Thank You to all that have posted info and vids about this unit.
Tone Break nis they to let us customize the settings we feel we need, so think it through and learn the benefits of how you would like it. I know I enjoy having mine set the way I do, and it adds some helpful audio for me and for where I usually search.
3RINGER said:
Monte can you go into how changing one will effect the other when it comes to settings from what you have seen?
Not so much about counter effect than just being alert to settings. I make sure I have the GB set for 'spot-on' to just a little positive. I noticed a too negative GB had performance issues at times, so I make sure I am 'on' to just a bit positive.
I never run a lot of Discrimination, and only rarely get it up to full ferrous-range rejection. I am almost always using a setting of about '05' as I like to hear if anything is there, and if it is iron, I carefully work the coil around it listening for any potential mid or higher Tone that could possibly be a partially masked keeper. I run my Iron Volume level at '01' or '02' so the Low Tone doesn't bother me so much when conditions have an abundance of iron present.
I just think it is important to learn the Relic, just like any detector model, to know it well and be aware of all the strengths and weaknesses, then determine what settings work best for you and the site conditions where you hunt. Pick a 2-Tone search mode or the 3-Tone search mode you favor that provides the nest good-target response when hunting bad target locations, and then keep things comfortable.
By that I mean to use the best search coils for the task at hand, don't extend the coil too far ut in front or take side-to-side sweeps that are too lengthy. A longer sweep often instills a faster sweep speed and that means you don't cover the area well and overlap sufficiently. Just adjust the rod so the coil is about 12"-18" in front of your leading toe, make a shorter-length side-to-side sweep, and I prefer to use a comfortable slower and methodical sweep for best coverage. Rely on the ears and eye to look at what caused a signal rather than get too wrapped up in visual Target ID when masking trash in present.
Just use the Relic as often as you can and be alert to learning all that it provides you. I know that's what I do, and I am loading my other vehicle as soon as I send this post off at 3:28 AM because I'll be heading off on a detecting adventure in search of an older site or two. If I can do my part and locate these places, then I have no doubt the Relic will do its part and help me hunt for any keepers that might still be left behind.
Enjoy a great detector!
Monte
