sovereign vs P.I.

[Tom Slick]

I'm not Tony, but I think my Sovereign GT is as deep on the wet salt sand, as any of the PI's I've had and these include the White's Surf PI, PI Pro, Dual Field, the Detector Pro Headhunter PI, and my Tesoro Sand Shark.

 

[Critterhunter]

Tony and everybody else...Great info...Thanks for that. I've caught blurbs in the past of PP mode on the Sov or Excal being deeper than at least some PIs, but I never looked into it, as I've only recently started playing with PP mode and it's blowing my mind, not just in it's depth, but also in it's ability to cut through minerals that even the legendary ability of BBS in disc on the Sovereign can't handle. I truly does look like PP mode is PI-like in both depth and ability to cut thru the worst of minerals. The added modulated audio and ability to tell iron often in PP, combined with I hear about 10 other words at least on targets it will tell you, makes it even more like a PI-And-More type of machine in certain ways I guess you could say.

One thing though...You mentioned you set the ground balance in track all metal mode, then switch to PP. Way I read it from Minelab of course disc doesn't use a ground balance you need to set (due to BBS's unique way to ignore the ground signal), but also they state that PP mode is a form of all metal *not featuring a ground balance*. Much like some old versions of all metal on machines of yester-year that didn't feature a ground balance in all metal. So I'm wondering, why do you suspect setting the All Metal ground balance has some effect on PP mode? I'd like to hear your reasoning, because all I've ever read says it doesn't feature one. In fact, if it did, then how are you supposed to set the ground balance for PP mode on an Excalibur? It's the same mode far as I know as it is on the GT, at least when I've played with an Excal and compared a bit to my GT.

One more thing- Here's what I think I'm hearing about using an audio amp (not shaun's amp, which is upping the voltage to the coil to create a stronger field) on the Excal for PP mode. It does indeed show more depth, but in disc mode it does not. I've also read that the audio amp tested on the GT in PP mode did not show any benefits, because the guy said that it appears the GT is already amping the audio for you when volume is at full. I tend to believe this is true. In my tests I've found a few things- disc at full or lowest volume on my GT shows no change in depth, but volume at full in PP mode gets about 4" more depth than with it lowest. At lowest in PP, it's showing me 2" less depth than disc, but with volume at full PP is getting 2" more depth than disc. And these are just air tests, as we all know many say Minelabs don't perform as well in the air as they do in the ground (sometimes anyway).

Also, on super deep coins I can hear with no problem in disc with volume at lowest, in PP mode to try to PP them to dig often I can't hear them, due to the volume being all the way down. And, far as the audio amp thing perhaps being built into the GT- I've noticed that on say 11" coins I wiggle over, a distinct "click" of the audio when I start", and then another "click" when I stop wiggling, and the audio seems to drop down like I just turned an amp off. This is even with volume at lowest, but what I'm saying is that it appears there is indeed some kind of audio boost going on in the GT in disc mode, which I suspect is also going on in PP mode, and which benefits PP mode even further when you crank the volume to full (while it doesn't help the depth of disc to increase). I suspect that's why the test I read of using an audio amplifer in PP mode benefits the Excalibur with more depth, but doesn't on the GT in PP mode, because the Excalibur is based on an older Sovereign model from what I hear, so perhaps it doesn't feature the extra audio boosting ability of the GT at full volume. I guess maybe there is good reason why Minelab does state that to insure most depth on a Sovereign, to turn the volume to full on the machine and then adjust for comfort on your headphones. I just don't see any depth difference in disc in that respect, but I do see it in PP mode.

I also hear you can run sensitivity at full blast in PP and it's still stable, even when disc can't run that high for the given minerals, but I have yet to play with that. I'm still in shock over PP punching thru such bad mineralization that I thought the only hope would be a PI for a particular beach I hunt to get much more than about 4 or 5" of depth where disc is choking or nulling out. If disc on a BBS machine is having trouble with this beach, I can only imagine what kind of trouble other machines are having, as we all know the reputation of BBS on the Sov/Excal to punch thru the worst of grounds while still running smooth as silk. I know it has for me in my mineralized soils/sands, just not at this particular beach which appears to have the worst of all 3 ground factors- black sand, microscopic iron, and other minerals.

 

[Critterhunter]

Futher conversation on this PP/PI thing...

http://www.findmall.com/read.php?21,1804922

 

[Critterhunter]

I have used many PI's over the past 10 years, including Minelab SD200v2, Goldquest SS, Deepstar2 (Borrowed), SeaHunter MKII.
At the moment, as I am 90% in the water, I only have the Garrett.
Luckily I have had my Sovereign for many years and could always compare against all the PI's I got to use.
Are you ready for my conclusion;
The Sovereign was as deep or deeper than all of the PI's on the beach (dry, damp, saturated). Big statement I know but 100% true.
Generally, the sand was clear of black sands where the Sovereign would struggle/false in DISC (but in PP was still surprisingly good). I think this is due to the search pattern in PP where it it seeing such a narrow field of material but is concentrated??.
But out in the black sand free with the stock coil and full sens (yep, 9 o'clock position), the depth blew me away.
I also have Shaun's AMP which unfortunately doesn't work at the moment (and he wont get back to me...grrrrrr) and that got me an extra 15% on top of what I was already getting.
To be honest, I don't post those findings much because I have gotten quite a few doubters who consider me delirious by my findings.
That's okay, I just detect behind many of them and excavate holes for the rings.........average men's wedding band to 15".
I recently detected a beach that was covered in beer caps......had to use DISC to remove them (247 in total)....and then switched to PP and picked up 2 nice gold rings down around 13" to 14".
Maybe this DISC/PP "which is deeper" does differ between the Sovereign/Excals????
I have checked about 6 machines and PP was always deeper. PP lets you dial in so much power and there is no falsing at all although I couldn't achieve this max power with my WOT and SEF......makes sense really as a bigger coil is a bigger antenna !
I hope this helps
Thanks,
Tony.

PS.....I had all this data on a spreadsheet on an old hard drive which has since died so I can't retrieve it.

With the Sovereign I always Track > Fix > PP.
HH
Tony

Tony, it looks like there might be a method to your madness in setting the ground balance in all metal tracking mode before switching to PP, because I got this in an Email from Minelab asking just what the realities of the manual saying "PP is a form of all metal that doesn't feature a ground balance" were...

Dear Sir,

The Sovereign has two methods of Ground balance.

Automatic Ground Compensation this occurs whenever the detector is in Discriminate mode

Accu-Trak this is the Auto Tracking which occurs in the All-Metal/Track position.

The All-metal Fixed and Pin-point positions carry over the last Ground Balance setting used in Track.

So if you are searching in Discriminate, and flicking over to All-Metal/Pin-point, it may or may not be noisy depending on ground conditions, and the last Ground Balance setting in Track.

If you intend to use the all-metal Pin-point, it would be worth doing a ground balance in Track at the start of your hunt; and periodically re-balance.

Hope this helps, and if you have any further questions, let me know.

Now, if what this person told me is true in how PP functions (?), then looks like you were dead on with your remark about using all metal tracking mode before flipping to PP. Also, your thoughts that one of the reasons PP might be so deep being that it might have something to do with..."I think this is due to the search pattern in PP where it it seeing such a narrow field of material but is concentrated??"...sounds like as good of a theory as any to me on one of the reasons it might handle bad ground better and seeing super deep. It may be ignoring surrounding ground more and so concentrating it's look deeper without other "distractions".

Another reason might be PP not ignoring iron might be keeping it from choking out on non-ferrous targets in soils or sands with heavy microscopic iron concentrations that might overwhelm disc and null out the target perhaps? I know I have found at one particular beach with very bad microscopic iron and black sand PP was seeing coins at around 5" or so that disc just plain out was choking or even nulling completely on. That's still well within the range of BBS and it's legendary ability to handle the worst of grounds, so the only thing I can figure is that all that microscopic iron in the sand was causing disc to null right out on some of these shallow non-ferrous targets.

You see, this is one of the reasons why I enjoy digging through old posts and hearing different opinions or theories to test out for myself. Somewhere in all that usually lies some realities, at least for some of us in some of our soils for certain things. Different perspectives can often be the key to finding some hidden answers that never would have otherwise been suspected.

 

[robby4570]

I lived on the East Coast of FL a couple of years back. I used most all the PI detectors with the exception of the Sea Hunter. Ended up with a Sovereign Elite and never looked back. The time I saved in not digging iron was more than made up digging good targets. I now have a Sovereign GT but the Elite was outstanding on the wet sand just like the GT.

I live in Panama City Beach FL and I use my Sovereign ELITE exclusively when doing dry sand, my White's Surf PI Plus just seems to have less depth on dry sand, but I split machines on the wet sand to ankle deep water. My Surf PI Plus shines in the water though and all the good stuff seems to be in waist to chest deep water, beyond the capabilities of my Sov... But I LOVE MY SOV for the dry!!!

 

[firtyfwee]

The BBS units (Sov/Excal) are very powerful machines and go super deep in disc even in the worst of grounds. However, when it gets REALLY mineralized, try the pin point mode. I've only recently started playing with it, after having been told by some beach hunters that it was PI-like in it's depth and ability to cut through minerals that even BBS has trouble with (which is saying alot).

Sure enough, crank up volume to full and sensitivity to full, which you can do with sensitivity in PP I hear, and this thing is giving me jaw dropping depth in a beach where the microscopic iron, minerals, and black sand is so bad that disc is nulling or choiing out at about 4" or so on a coin. Really shocking to hear a hard "zing/zing" in PP mode that disc is not even responding to.

I was told in the past by a few serious Excalibur beach hunters that PP mode, with volume and sensitivity turned all the way up, was giving them PI depth and ability to cut through the worst of minerals. I only recently started exploring that and darn if it don't look that way.

Best part is, that I'm told there are at least 10 distinct "words" in PP mode to judge targets by. I can already see a few which quickly tell me if it's iron much of the time. PP mode is modulated audio too so you can judge target depth just like in disc.

Another perk is I can remove enough sand to see if disc will now give me a response, and if it's still a null then I leave it for the PI guys. I wired a remote PP switch to my GT so it's easy to do, and some Excalibur guys have done the same for the same reason, but as said no need to switch to disc to judge targets by once you learn the unique language of PP mode.

Now I hear All Metal mode also has some special abilities and language too, and is a very good all metal mode on a detector, so it's like I've got 3 different machines in my control box I never knew I had.

DO you think that the technique for max gain in PP mode would also work on Explorer SE models?

 

[Neil]

The all metal pinpoint mode on the Sov GT is the same as the pinpoint all metal mode on the Elite and all the over versions of the Sovereign. Ask anyone who has tried several models, there must be someone here on this forum who has.

You are not going to improve the Sovs performance in the all metal pinpoint mode by ground balancing and then switching to pinpoint. The pinpoint mode will compensate(just try and you will see) for different grounds like the disc mode does.

Same as on the Excal by the way, pinpoint mode will adjust as it goes.

There has got to be people on this forum who have used the various model sovs and can see the pinpoint mode has remained the same since it was introduced.

I have only used two pulse units, a dual field by whites and a HH PI. I never found the dual field deeper than my sov in pinpoint but the HH PI was.

 

[Tommy Cash]

I run a Sovereign Elite with the WOT. Will running in full sensitivity with pinpoint on give me more depth? Or does that only work with the 10" tornado coil? I get a bit of falsing and chatter unless I'm near 11oclock on the sand and beach setting or 2 O'clock on the wet. In the water I can't get it to quieten down in disc, so I usually reverse discriminate but when I swing in one direction I get noise when I swing in the other direction nothing- that is until it hits a target. Is this normal?

 

[robby4570]

My Sovereign ELITE seems a good bit deeper in DRY SAND than my Whites Surf PI Plus (NOT DF Model). But when you go to the water's edge and hit the wet sand they do just about the same with the Sovereign being a bit "chatty". With the coils submerged a few inches, the PI really outshines the Sovereign. I have become interested in this and have tested this with both machines on "found" and not planted targets. My test was far from scientific but good enough for me to be convinced. I am open to hearing from others who have had the same OR different results.

My Sov was in ALL METAL, Max Sensitivity NO Disc or Notch and Variable tone
The Pi was at the factory default marks (the Triangle with the "P" in it)
The testing was done in the Gulf in Panama City Beach on a very calm water day, ie. hardly any waves washing over the coils

I bought both machines from the same previous owner and both are quite old....