!!!!!! Standard Tek T2 3B or bottlecap mode help !!!!!!

[kasparov747]

Hi guys,
I am curious as to what you seasoned Teknetics T2 users think about the bottlecap or 3B audio tone mode? When I hit a targets that gets my interest. in the other audio modes the VDi numbers will stay relatively the same. For example say the VDi reads 89 to 90 possibly indicating a quarter, when I turn it to the 3B mode a lot of the times the VDI numbers will vary greatly from anywhere from lets say 38 to 88 or anywhere in between. I have dug a lot of targets that read and sound good on the other audio tone modes but when the vdi numbers vary a lot in the 3B mode it is almost alwats a junk target. And it seems, but not always that good targets when using the 3B audio mode. the VDI numbers will not vary that much but stay relatively close to the same thing. My question is do you guys use the 3B mode to double check a target and see if the vdi numbers stay close to the same or if they vary a lot. I definitely wont rely on the vdi numbers alone but just wondered if the 3B mode does give one enough information when the vdi numbers jump around to tell you that the target it junk or if the vdi stays close to the same if it may be a good target. And is there an audio mode that some of you prefer for coin hunting and if so why? Terra digger sent me some great information recently and that has helped a lot but I am looking for more information on the bottlecap mode and if anyone can help me with this I would greatly appreciate the help. Thanks for your time and happy hunting..

 

[Elton]

Your right it jumps on the jumk and bottle caps and locks pretty good on good signaled targets. That's what it is supposed to do per the manual and it sure seems to do that on mine ok.

 

[kasparov747]

Thanks Elton. I have mostly been using 4 tone but have started to use 2+, 3 and 3B more often. I may start using and experimenting with the delta phase audio tones. I tried it once but with 99 variable tones it makes for quite an earful. No matter what audio tone I use I am starting more and more to use the 3B mode to verify if its a good or bad target. If when checking with the 3B mode the vdi numbers jump around a lot I lately havent been digging the target, hopefull I havent missed anything good. Have you ever used the delta phase audio tones much and what are your thoughts on them? Hopefully this summer I will have enough air condition jobs to be able to purchase either a Minelab Explorer SE or if I can I would rather have a Minelab E-Trac. From the machines I have used the Explorer series are the absolute best ever for finding silver especially deep silver as nothing else comes close. So Elton if anything else pops into your mind about the T2 that you think would be helpful send the information my way as one can never have enough learning or knowledge about their machine. Thanks again Elton and I hope you have a great day and a better one tomorrow. Happy hunting....

 

[TerraDigger]

He is not a big fan of the 3B or DP modes. He say's they act 'squirrely' in his mineralized soil. Maybe he can expand on that for you. Plus there are several methods for identifying bottlecaps with the T2 besides the 3B mode.

 

[Monte]

I recall a few sites I used to select to hunt in late fall back in the latter 1960's. I was using a BFO detector and, if I hunted close enough to some radio transmit towers I could hear both the motor-boating beats of the detector, and also listen in to the World Series. In that era of detecting we just didn't have some of the problems we encounter today in much greater number, and I am referring to trash. Certain problem trash, to be specific.

It wasn't even that much hassle when we were using basic TR's or TR-Discrimination models, or the early dual-mode VLF (Ground Balanced, All Metal mode) and TR-Disc. (non-ground cancelling detectors) because TR-Disc. was more of what I refer to as "true progressive discrimination." That is, you could increase the discriminate level and knock out problem trash a bit better based on the targets ferrous then non-ferrous content and conductivity.

When we got our first motion Discriminators in the late 1970's, with the first popular intro being the Bounty Hunter Red Baron, and then with all of the motion-based Discriminators (ground reject and trash reject) like those we use today, we saw an increase in Sensitivity or gain, better depth, greater sensitivity to a lot of things, and of course more EMI.

EMI is frequently caused by some transmission source, or it can be attributed to problem targets. Note, however, that metal targets, both ferrous and non-ferrous, have an effect on our transmitted detection field and then the induced EMF on the object can cause our detectors to respond. We can all have some problems with annoying transmission that produces confusing reception.

Some of the biggest offenders that detector manufacturers hear about, and that the detector operators have to deal with, are caused by ABC, NBC or BBC issues. No, not THOSE broadcast transmission sources, but the more common references we might use such as:

Another Bottle Cap ...

... Nagging Bottle Cap ...​

... Blasted Bottle Cap​

I'm sure some folks might use other terms to describe encountering a dense scattering of these, but I'll watch my tongue as I usually do.

Back in 1981 and 1982, when I started hosting metal detecting seminars, or trained my customers as a dealer, I instructed techniques I used, and there are many methods we can employ to try and 'classify' targets as desirable or not. This is different from Target ID. Target ID has it's place, but in my opinion TID is really a lazier approach to enjoying the detecting hobby. One we can use when we don't want to deal with anything but targets that are most likely to be a coin. A known coin that falls in a rather tight band or segment.

To explain my approach, in most applications, is to point out that I usually do NOT rely on Target ID. I seldom use it. Instead, I like to listen to all the target info I can gather, and then enjoy the benefits of a good VDI response (numerical discrimination read-out) to help make the Dig / No-Dig decision. It also depends on the type of site I am hunting and the targets I am after.

Because I like to find all US coins, I am alert to display readings they might show, if located in a good functioning depth, position, and in favorable ground. I prefer to hunt older sites, such as ghost towns, homesteads, dance hall or other recreation sites from 80-150 years ago, old yards, out-of-the-way sections of older parks with overgrown brush (that might not have been hunted before), or urban renovation. Any place that might have older coins, but especially old trade-tokens or other neat smaller-size collectibles (aka artifacts, keepers, etc., etc.) will be what I look for.

I also like to find silver jewelry and gold jewelry so I concentrate on sites with that potential, and that means that I am always hunting sites while being alert for all targets of varying conductivity, and able to register anywhere in the non-ferrous target range, from very low foil on up through a big silver dollar. I have a lot of tolerance for 'trash' or 'junk' because quite a bit of it falls within the wide range of potentially good conductive desired targets.

What I don't like is Iron. And when I say 'iron' I am referring to all ferrous type targets as well as other magnetic types of metals, such as the metal nickel, or common rusty tin we encounter. So, for over thirty years now, I like to try to classify targets into one of two groups, non-ferrous or ferrous. Most non-ferrous targets I will recover, while most ferrous or iron reading targets I ignore.

In the past, most models on the market have only provided a single tone audio response. That's fine, and I hunt that way a lot with many detector models, BUT, I rely on techniques I long-ago labeled 'Quick-Out' and 'EPR' (which stands for Edge-Pass Rejection). I relate these in an article anyone can print out called Audio Target Classification and it is listed under Tips and Techniques at the www.ahrps.org site.

More models today feature some form of Audio Tone ID which can greatly help classify targets as being ferrous or non-ferrous. Just keep in mind that not all bad targets will sound bad, meaning not all iron will respond as iron or magnetic in nature, and that is due to man's efforts to form various objects into shapes that enhance their conductivity. Some targets are simply a real challenge so we, as detectorists, need to be aware of how to deal with them.

Let's fast-forward to the Teknetics T2. I like using all of the Teknetics models because they do provide the benefits of Tone ID to complement their visual TID/VDI read-out. To explain what I like to use and not like, with regard to the T2's audio Tone ID, let me just add that the T2 does an excellent job of 'classifying bottle caps with an iron TID or Iron type low-tone audio. The manual describes a technique, essentially EPR which I've used for 30+ years, and if mastered, it works. Nothing is perfect but in most applications with bottle caps and similar iron positioned within 4'-5", it works.

I like to SEE the visual response indicate in the iron range when I suspect a target might be such a critter, and I also like to HEAR the low-tone audio (Iron Audio) that the T2 and other good detector models can provide.

The ONLY metal detectors I have used that had a "bottle cap reject" type of audio that I liked were the White's 5900 DI Pro SL, 6000 Pro XL and renamed XL Pro, and the XLT (as long as you kept the reject setting at '1'). I like these models when hunting in picnic sites or other places when I encounter a lot of bottle caps because their 4-filter operation and the method they processed signals (as analog designs) just did really well at hinting a potential bottle cap type target, and at the same time producing a good, clean audio on coins and other non-ferrous targets.

The 3b Tone ID setting on the T2 can work, but .... It doesn't work well enough for me and the sites I hunt. There are many differences involved, such as the fact that the T2 uses DD coils and, traditionally, DD coils don't discriminate quite a cleanly as concentric designs. I know a few people who like it and use it, but they are also what I call 'average coin hunters' and they try to use every electronic method to reject or ignore recovery of any type of trash.

What did I mean by that? I mean they are the types who expect to pay the money for a metal detector that is almost guaranteed to properly identify all good and bad targets, both visually and audibly. They want the manufacturers to do all the work and, sadly, they seem to skip over the pages that explain techniques that help the OPERATOR perform the task to reject bottle caps. They say they like 3b because they hear the difference and they ignore potential bottle caps. That's fine, but it doesn't for well for me.

I have found 3b to be more inconsistent on good target readings. Targets that I locate in 1, 1+, 2+, 3 or 4 tone audio selection can give me a good, clean audio 'hit' but more often than not, in the sites I usually hunt, if I select 3b to check them out, the audio tone response is somewhat degraded. Noisy and inconsistent, even if they are a good target. Yes, a bottle cap might be even worse, but I don't need 3b when I have the excellent iron TID and Iron low-tone Audio response.

With those audio and visual functions, a little quick operator skill usually 'classifies' a likely piece of junk. I am fine with that.

Now, let's quickly look at the TID and VDI display information. Note that the audio and visual displays are independent of each other. I usually rely mainly on the VDI response, as I mentioned earlier, and if there is a weakness I credit to the T2 compared against the other Teknetics models, it is that the Target ID, along the upper scale, tends to be a little less accurate or less consistent or doesn't lock-on as well as the Gamma or Omega, etc. I find this especially true on mid-range to deeper targets. The good news is that I get a VDI that I still use and the audio tones that assist my decision making.

Okay, that was brief (the last paragraph, I mean) so let's get back to Tone ID. Refer to the Discrimination section of the Owner's Manual under Number of Tones (# of Tones) and it will explain the Continuous Processing and Sampled Processing methods. There is a difference.

I prefer to hunt with little or no Discrimination. If I do decide to increase my discriminate level, it is only because there is an over-abundance of iron nails that annoy me. In that case I will increase my Disc. level only to the point where I reject the problem nails at the site. This is the method I prefer to use with any make and model that allows me that amount of Discrimination control.

I accept everything, or I only reject iron nails. Why? Because I prefer to be the one in control of most decision making and not expect a metal detector to do it all. I have taken that approach since about the mid-to-latter '70s and it has worked for me. It's especially easier with the better discrimination methods we have available today.

No, I am not referring to Notch or to any wide-ranging variable control, but the two Discriminating methods we can all use .... Visual Discrimination and Tone ID Discrimination. That's especially near perfect for me because I only want to reject Iron, and if I have to use techniques to help due to the target's size or shape, that's fine. A low-tone Iron ID and a visual Iron ID/low number VDI give me what I need.

My preference is to hunt using a 1 or 2 Tone ID choice, but I might select 3 or 4 on the T2 for certain coin hunting applications. The '1' Tone option simply provides us with a medium audio response to all targets, and it is a Continuous process, not Sampled. In a relatively clean area and when I am not encountering a lot of iron, I like to use the default '1' Tone ID. I hunt in a lot of rough, uneven ground and some mixed mineralization and it works well. I also usually favor a non-VCO audio response.

I'll opt for the '1+' Tone ID audio at times as well, under the same conditions I just stated, and when Iron trash is more limited. Sometimes I like to change-things-up a little, if hunting for long durations, and just switch back and forth between '1' and '1+'.

Since I prefer to hunt homesteads, ghost towns, old recreation sites, pioneer or military encampments, or look for urban renovation work, such as sidewalk repair, etc., I know I'm likely to run across a lot of nails and other small ferrous-based trash. Thus, my favorite Audio Tone ID pick is '2+' for most hunting with any amount of iron. I like the audio response in '1' and '1+' modes, and the same Continuous response is there in '2+' for the non-ferrous targets. However, the lower, bass-like Iron Tone ID is a combination of Sampled and Continuous processing. Using this Tone ID option, as well as '1+', you will learn to hear the difference the processing provides.

I'll apologize for rambling, but the T2 provides us with a lot of audio and visual information to compliment its overall performance that we need to read the manual, then take the time to work with each function in order to know it well. That way we can decide if it is a feature/function that works for us in our hunting environment and ground conditions or not.

You started out with the following question:

"I am curious as to what you seasoned Teknetics T2 users think about the bottlecap or 3B audio tone mode?"

Personally, I think the Bottle Cap is one of the biggest pests most coin shooters can encounter, but it is something we can easily deal with. Use of proper techniques, as mentioned, can eliminate recovery of a very high percentage of the Bottle Caps.

As for the T2's 3b Audio Tone ID choice, I think it might work for some people and in some locations, and at the right time. It's not perfect because nothing is when it comes to detector design, and it is all a matter of personal choice. My choice is to pass it by. I also don't like the dp Tone ID for most of my locations. Perhaps it is the higher mineralization I hunt in, or maybe just my expectations of what I would like to hear from the targets at a given site.

Learning what the 3b Tone ID feature can do FOR YOU is really something that only you can answer. You have to work with it and the other Tone ID options to decide if YOU like it our not.

It's no different than if someone posted a question that they wanted to hunt an older park that has been well hunted through the past few decades and is even free of most trash, so they want to know the best settings to use? My suggestions would be one of two:

#1.. Select the All Metal mode, adjust for a proper Threshold hum, Ground Balance, then search. Dig every target that signals.

Another option would be:

#2.. Select the Discriminate mode, select '1' Tone ID, adjust to '0' Disc. level, Ground Balance, then search. Dig every target that signals.

So, be ready for others settings and approaches, listen and figure why they like what they like, then make the decisions you need to satisfy your own preferences.

Now, it's nice and sunny, warming up, and my T2, G2 and I are off to go hit a building tear-down, then go clean out a section of a well worked small park.

Happy Hunting to you,

Monte

 

[Elton]

I have used the delta pitch in a extremely trashed park.

It is noisy for sure as each target accepted will have a slightly different sound. The advantage after much practice listening only and not trying to look at the meter is some Silver will high tone that is near iron trash..The downside is that aluminum screw caps will also ring high tones. I can't tell if they are lower or higher, ( My Hearing can't distinguish) so I end up digging a few of them. I have been able to pull some Older Silver dimes out between the trash using the Delta Pitch tones. Not positive it is worth the aggravation of hearing all the tones though. You will have to try it in your area and see what you think.


It works great in open field situations..You can really move along and listen for high shrill sounds and investigate further. I would think that is where it is used best in the less trashy areas. I can say this..If you go over the high tone objects at a brisk speed covering ground..you will not miss the targets..

 

[TerraDigger]

For taking the time to write such an extensive answer to Kas's question.

 

[1940goldy]

when i ground balance push trigger forward it say's pump coil to ground when i do this for example a number say's( 52 or 62 this is just for example or what ever number it is) is this when it has ground balanced correctley not really used to self ground balancing machines thanks