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Tesoro diablo umax vs fisher m-scope gold bug (the first)

nugget71

New member
Everyone seems to rave about the diablo umax but is it really that much better then the old gold bug? Both can be ground balanced and both run at different frequencies 17.8 kHz vs 19 kHz. The diablo umax does have a hot rock switch but I can cancel out hot rocks with my gold bug by pumping the coil on the rock a few times plus it gives off a funny boing noise and not clear zip zip like gold. How much would you pay for a Diablo umax? Really cant see it being that much better then my gold bug. My Lobo ST is a great machine but because it does not have a manual GB the old gold bug edges out the lobo. Any opinions are appreciated thank you.
Cheers!
 
In terms of basic hots, they're roughly comparable. But given a choice between the original Gold Bug and the Diablo Micromax, that's real easy. Diablo Micromax.

--Dave J.
 
n/t
 
I had a Diablo when they first came out, wish I still had it , never compared it with the GB for depth but it was a good detector. Probably not many detectorest have never used a Diablo.
 
On eBay and it was just the control box, NO coil or shaft included! You can nearly buy a new gold bug pro with that amount of cash. How much would you pay for one of these little Devils?
Cheers!
 
nugget71 said:
On eBay and it was just the control box, NO coil or shaft included! You can nearly buy a new gold bug pro with that amount of cash. How much would you pay for one of these little Devils?
Cheers!

I don't know ...but I have three!!!
 
Nice detector.

Dave Johnson who has designed most of the specialized VLF gold detectors has said that this is perhaps the favorite of all his designs.

I think Dave is an astonishingly brilliant man and I have the greatest respect for him on many levels.

I had a Diablo μMax. It was nice and light and the dual GB feature was interesting, but I found it to be less satisfying as a gold detector than an MXT, so I sold it.

This year I got all fired up about this detector again and found one for sale at a reasonable price. I tried it out for a week and found it to be seriously inferior to Dave's latest gold detector, the Gold Bug Pro. I sold it for a few bucks more than I paid for it and will never have another.

Time marches on.

The GBP is deeper, has superior GB, has a useful discrimination mode. As far as hot rock elimination, you have several tools available including a continuous readout of ground phase.

Way to go Dave - you have topped your all time favorite.
 
Easily the original gold bug ....well ahead of the Diablo umax. The Gold Bug could do a lot more for you, and considering the Diablo had major trouble over hotter ground, the original Bugs beat them hands down for gold detecting.

The Diablo umax's, Dingo and early Lobo 's were so overated as gold detectors it was comical really.
 
Oh yes, it should be pointed out that this summer the F-19 will be available - yet another of Dave's creations, moving the ball further down field.
 
Oh and those early tesoro's depth was non existent. Surface.
 
For the vast majority of users, the recent GB/G2 platform machines will be better than a Diablo Micromax. This fact places a price ceiling on the DM which isn't even available new, you take big risks buying one used.

I will now revert to "old man telling stories while he still can" mode.

* * * * * * * * * *

I've been playing with metal detectors at the design engineering and field testing level for more than 30 years. The DM is an all-analog machine, designed in 1995-96 and technologically primitive by today's standards, but the technology was done exceptionally well in terms of delivering performance in a minimalist package. The first thing it had to do to be a credible product, was to match the original Fisher Gold Bug on hots. It met that criterion. The GB2 at that time was very new and expensive, we were not aiming at that.

Three things killed the DM.

1. Its design was aimed at the old Gold Bug, a respected and established product. To take market share away from that, first it had to provide a reason to be interested, and a lower price tag was the obvious ticket. Manufacturing cost on a DM should have been 'way less than the old GB which had been a "no matter what it costs' design. I'd say that the DM was a better product than the old GB, and I suppose nearly everyone who knows both machines would agree with that statement. But that doesn't mean you can intro a product at a price point higher than the established competition you're pitting it against! Tesoro intro'd it at a higher price hoping for a fatter profit margin. Huge strategic mistake. The thing priced right could have reinvented the gold machine market, and it never happened.

2. Jack was big on "smooth sound", and insisted on sandbagging the audio gain on it. He'd built a business around so-called "two-filter motion discriminators", doing them very well, but despite being right there in the legendary Bradshaws, he didn't know gold machines. Ya gotta be in all metals mode running on the ragged edge to hear the tiny stuff. I don't use headphones, I run on speaker, my prototype I jacked up the audio gain so I could hear what the hell was going on. All others use headphones to hear better, right? When I saw the first magazine ad, I was shocked: the testimonial was "smoothest". Not "hottest" or ______ (all those other possibilities.) He just called his first real gold machine a dog. This wasn't going well.

3. Jack's heart was never in the DM anyhow. The DM was a stepping-stone on the way to the Lobo Supertraq. From my perspective it was a big brother, little brother thing where the two items would support each other in the marketplace and even in manufacturing. From Jack's perspective, the DM was the product he hadn't really asked for, and to him it felt like a bastard child. Without Jack really wanting the product, and the wrong price point and the de facto requirement for headphones working against it, it was doomed.

It's remarkable that one of the best products ever produced in this industry, lasted (as I recall) about 3 years. This is an industry where a really good product can go ten, fifteen, even twenty years and more!

All was not lost. The Diablo Micromax was the preliminary all-analog version of the computerized and hotter Lobo Supertraq. The Lobo Supertraq introduced in late 1996 shifted the spotlight on computerized ground balancing in gold prospecting machines away from Australia to the USA. And here we are 18 years later with the Lobo Supertraq is still regarded as a member of the "dead-serious" VLF gold prospecting machine club.

Just the same, knowing both machines as I do (knowing how to go in there with a soldering iron and jack up the audio gain so I can hear the damn thing on speaker) and being comfortable with primitive manual phase-reference-shifting type ground balancing, for gold prospecting I'd take the Diablo over the Lobo. Easy choice for me. I own a Diablo because a friend heard how much I wanted one and gave me his; whereas the Lobo which was and still is a market success was a machine I never liked personally and don't have one. Different strokes for different folks. As a design engineer on someone else's payroll, my job is to design products that sell, whether I personally like them or not.

Nowadays, if you ask what's a "serious entry level" gold prospecting machine, the answer is the GB/G2 platform products. There's fairly broad agreement on this among people in that business who have no commitment to any particular manufacturer, they like what works. ........ Our F5 and Omega 8000 can be regarded as entry level, in fact I usually bring an Omega on gold machine field test expeditions. But those aren't in the serious gold prospecting category. They're good midscale general purpose machines with real but limited gold prospecting capability. Someone who knows how to use either machine skilfully can run rings around someone else swinging no-matter-what-it-cost that they don't know how to use properly -- which is most often the case.

I've been around a while in this industry. It's become obvious what my personal preferences are. I love simple cheap stuff that works good. Cars: low end hatchbacks. TV's: the best and cheapest TV that can be owned is the one you never buy in the first place, you can't give me a TV for free. Clothes: comfortable and less than $25 and they go in the trash when they become no longer functional. Etc. That frugal Scotch ancestry and steam-engine obsession with the Second Law of Thermodynamics permeates everything I do. Now and then it's all come together in products that bring those traits out the best, and by that standard the Diablo Micromax was my career high point. (So odd that as a Tesoro product it was such a failure!) The CZ platform intro'd in the very early 1990's was extremely complex which I didn't like, but complexity was a necessity for that product. The user interface nonetheless was simple and straightforward, performance-wise it is still the top machine for saltwater beach work, and it doesn't take a kilogram of batteries to run it because in the design I fought tooth and nail for every microwatt of power consumption no matter what the cost.

There won't be another Diablo Micromax. In electronics, the parts used, the design methods used, and the manufacturing methods used, are now mostly different from what they were back in the 1900's olden days. A "Scotch design philosophy" gold machine nowadays would be something else. And, it probably won't even happen. The GB/G2 are too multipurpose to be put into that minimalist category.

We do however have a product which meets the criterion of "Scotch design philosophy", and it's a product I had almost nothing to do with. It's the Eurotek Pro, designed by Jorge Anton Saad assisted by Yi Yang. If you guessed from their names that they're not Scots, that guess would be correct. Thus does the Second Law prevail over all, its wisdom did not end with James Watt and Arthur Eddington and Claude Shannon. .........The EtekPro is not by any stretch of the imagination a gold machine, it's aimed at general purpose beeping excluding gold prospecting. But it was designed to deliver the mostest with the leastest, and by golly it delivered that. I'd be as proud of it as I am of the Diablo Micromax except for one thing: it wasn't my design! although it was developed from a platform that originally came from me a decade ago. If I have something to be proud of, it's that these two guys learned enough from me to carry on without me.

By the way, rumors of my death have been greatly exaggerated. Hell, I was writing my obit several months ago, but since then managed to dial in better meds (especially medical-quality zinc gluconate originally developed for Wilson's Disease) and it looks like I'm cheating the Grim Reaper for another round. We have several new gold machine platforms (not just tweaks of existing platforms) under development and we even have a gold-geologist-in-training. Make no mistake, we're serious about gold! (And, please don't PM me asking me for details: no straight answers to questions like that can be offered until dealers in the authorized distribution chain are taking orders for a product that the factory has described publicly in detail.)

Meanwhile back to the original question: since my personal Diablo Micromax isn't for sale until my estate's being executed, I can't say what the price tag should be.

--Dave J.
 
lytle78 said:
Oh yes, it should be pointed out that this summer the F-19 will be available - yet another of Dave's creations, moving the ball further down field.

A good guess, lytle78, but it just happens to be wrong. The F-19 is Jorge & Yi team project, I wasn't in that loop. It's based on a platform that originated from me, but apart from that I know almost nothing about it.

My goal at FTP-Fisher is to be able to disappear, business will go on as usual, and someone will eventually notice that it's been several months since I've shown up and they'll wonder what that means. It's guys like the Jorge & Yi team that give me the confidence that the world of beep will go on after I'm no longer around.

Not to the exclusion of certain other guys (and gals if they happen to come aboard), I'm just commenting on the F-19 and that's Jorge and Yi.

--Dave J.
 
write up Dave! That was an excellent read indeed and has given me a greater appreciation for life and metal detecting, thank you Dave.
Cheers!
 
We just had a glimpse into the mind & memories of ( in my opinion) the best designer of metal detectors that ever has been..

Thank you Dave J. .......... You have no idea how I, and I bet others enjoyed reading your post...
 
I would agree with the others completely. One of the greatest reads ever! Thanks Dave J for allowing us into your mind, even just a little bit. I feel confident about the future of FT completely.
 
I have been following this topic with interest, thank you to all who have contributed. The question I have now is: Is the Diablo Umax suitable for a home build project, and if so how does one obtain a copy of the schematic and parts list?
 
There might be a schematic over at geotech, but creating a parts list from a schematic would be up to you. You'd have to buy a factory Lobo ST searchcoil for it, trying to do your own searchcoil for a circuit that may not even work yet is a really bad idea.

Regarding the circuit itself, if you've successfully built other VLF induction balance metal detectors, you could probably do a Diablo MicroMax. Circuitry is pretty simple and straightforward.

We're talking a lot of work here, with lots of things that could go wrong leading to another one for the scrap heap. If the objective is to own a gold machine, forget DIY, just buy a good gold machine from an authorized dealer. If the objective is to learn more about metal detectors by screwing around with a simple one, there are better places to start where others have already trod the path. The older entry level Tesoro discriminators are popular experimenter projects.

--Dave J.
 
Elton said:
We just had a glimpse into the mind of ( in my opinion) the best designer of metal detectors that ever has been..

Thank you Dave J. .......... You have no idea how I, and I bet others enjoyed reading your post...

Yes Elton , it is indeed a word .
magnanimous magnus , great + animus , soul . Generous in overlooking injury or insult , rising above pettiness ; noble .
Source: Webster's New World compact desk dictionary .
I also found Dave J.'s post most interesting . A behind the scenes look at the development of a detector from the past , it's history and the people behind it , their interactions and the results .
Thank you Dave J. for a most interesting post . Congrats to you on both your past achievements and all the new ones you have made possible . Best wishes to you Sir .
 
Dave J. said:
There might be a schematic over at geotech, but creating a parts list from a schematic would be up to you. You'd have to buy a factory Lobo ST searchcoil for it, trying to do your own searchcoil for a circuit that may not even work yet is a really bad idea.

Regarding the circuit itself, if you've successfully built other VLF induction balance metal detectors, you could probably do a Diablo MicroMax. Circuitry is pretty simple and straightforward.

We're talking a lot of work here, with lots of things that could go wrong leading to another one for the scrap heap. If the objective is to own a gold machine, forget DIY, just buy a good gold machine from an authorized dealer. If the objective is to learn more about metal detectors by screwing around with a simple one, there are better places to start where others have already trod the path. The older entry level Tesoro discriminators are popular experimenter projects.

--Dave J.

Dave, thank you for your considered answer. The object is to learn more about metal detectors within the context of an interest in fine gold in noisy, hot rock riddled ground. An initial search of the web and Geotech has not revealed a schematic but I will keep looking and update you here of any progress. Once again thank you for your guidance.

OZDigger
 
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