The SE and Frequencies

[MackieG]

Hope someone can answer this in laymans terms. The SE/SE Pro & E-trac are all FBS machines operating on 28 frequencies. Are they always transmitting and analyzing all the 28 frequencies constantly? (or is this just marketing hype) I read that the SE selects the best freq's for your hunting conditions (such as for ground minerals, electrical interference and such). This makes me believe the det. is selecting just a few of the available frequencies during actual operation. Is this correct - or am I way off on the detecdtors operation?
Now for the main part of this question -- if the following targets respond better to the following frequencies (Silver and Coins -- to a low freq. say 2.5, iron, tin. alu. & such -- to a mid freq. say 7.5, and Gold -- to a higher freq. of 22.5) ARE WE MISSING SOME OF THESE TARGETS IF THE SE/SE PRO SELECT COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FREQUENCIES?
(The freq. numbers are from White's V3 forum) I'm not trying to start a conflict -- would just like some honest answers. Mack

 

[Hotcz70]

somebody here can answer your question. Unfortunately...I don't have the "smarts" to do so.

I am more than interested in getting an ironclad answer myself though.

 

[niterider_58]

n/t

 

[Chris(SoCenWI)]

This goes back a long time, but some one had once posted a oscilloscope trace of the explorers transmit signal. It was a big fat square wave followed by some smaller ones. When you do a noise cancel it slightly shortened (shifted the frequency slightly higher) the waves by a small amount each channel as it cycled through the ten channels. Next time you have your are detecting hold the search coil next to your head phones while you are wearing them and press NOISE CANCEL. The coil will induce a current in your head phones and you can hear it shifting frequencies.

I don't understand this well enough to explain but with a couple of square waves you can generate many frequencies, I think the ones the explorer uses vary from 2.5khz to 100khz. Depending on which Noise Cancel channel you are on will vary these frequencies slightly. The transmitted signal remains constant in strength. And the same number of frequencies are transmitted regardless of channel.

It is on the receive side that the sensitivity-(strength of signal needed to be processed), and number of frequencies analyzed is determined.

Several years ago they published how many frequencies were actually used for each noise cancel channel. I believe the reason it varies is because the frequencies that would fall on power line 50(Outside US) or 60(US) hertz harmonics were excluded because they generally would be too noisy. When you noise cancel the slight shift change in frequency will vary which ones will fall on harmonics. There is a minelab white paper posted somewhere on the internet that explains this.

Long story short the machine is seldom/never using all 28 channels if I remember correctly, but it is using the bulk of them; much more than the White's two or three channel machines. Looks like another case of marketing BS.

Chris

 

[Hotcz70]

don't know the answer...I'll tell ya'.

If I say I found my last 6 or 7 coins on edge and in iron...then that's exactly how I found them...regardless of what opinion a feller' or 2 might have.

By the way... I got the pics of our big haul we made today in 3 hours. Actually it really wasn't that bad for 3 hours at that crappy park.

I know I'm good for another year before wanting to go back there though. Me and 7" to 8" deep memorial cents don't get along

I'll try to get a post up this evening after work. I didn't clean either of your coins though. I'll leave that to you.

 

[John - Maryland]

From the Manual:

The Full Band Spectrum (FBS) circuit automatically transmits 28
frequencies simultaneously. This increased frequency range means
that the signal received from the detector coil is analyzed from a
wide range of responses.

 

[Crash620]

I think what everyone really wants to know, and what nobody from Minelab seems to be forthcoming with is how many of those frequencies the Minelab actually processes at any given time. (It's not 2 and does it vary, or is it always the strongest harmonics. It is a bit deceptive to say it transmits 28 frequencies..... Any single frequency has several harmonics, which in and of themselves can be considered transmitted frequencies....

 

[thebeatmachine]

n/t

 

[digitrich]

They still can't answer the question as to whether we should noise cancel in the air or on the ground.

 

[digitrich]

Seriously though, if the Explorer really was transmitting and receiving all 28 frequencies at once and the countless algorithms and necessary calculations, don't you think the machine would have to have a faster, better processor than it's current set up? And wouldn't that possibly take more than 9 volts to run? Smoke and mirrors...............Just smile and wave boys, .................just smile and wave.

 

[digitrich]

Not because of all the hype of what the machine is capable of or all it's different tweaks, but the fact that White's manufacture reps are actually posting on Find Mall's Whites Vision Forum and answering questions. Bravo. That machine is a complicated beast and a tweakers paradise and/or nightmare. But I think it is saying allot that they are free willing to answer questions on a public Forum. Why doesn't Mine Lab do that? Why do we sit here and guess at these questions like the answers are some kind forbidden fruit? Who came up with that marketing plan? I think some of that has to do with Mine Lab backing another Forum. If they ignore or fail to contribute to our Forum, that may draw more people to their Forum. However, I haven't seen any of these technical questions answered over there either. I don't think it has anything to do with them protecting their technology either, a twelve year old, electronics whiz could probably reverse engineer an Explorer, so the idea that other metal detecting manufacturers can't, just seems pretty remote to me.

 

[dewcon4414]

There are 11 channels... each have 28 freq or harmonics which are set at random distances unlike the SOV which is set at a fixed 1.5 kHz. Im not smart either Bryce so i know where you are coming from. Ive asked Andy and some of the others who have access to this answer and just never got a reply, so i dont think Minelab really wants us to know the inner workings. It would pay to know simply because if you want to set the channel manually you would have a better idea if a certain channel would give you an advantage to find say gold jewerly over another. I think the patten said something about the processor viewing the freqs but only using the stronger 3. That would mean it only have one more freq to deal with than say whites' two freq system. I dont think that would take any faster of a processor to eliminate unproductive signals. This would affect how the detector sees targets... expecially if one channel is more conducive to say lower freqs over the other. I think Chris has a good handle on the ins and outs in his reply. Are we missing some of these targets... sure we are you can see that from our finds. We do great in the brass, copper, and silver range and poorly in the gold range. But... each machine has its advantages and disadvantages as well. This is one of those questions again... how can i just find good targets and leave the trash. Personally i like finding the silver because its hard as hell finding gold in trashy areas... those living on the beach who dig most targets do tend to find some really good jewerly. But they dig it all. Im sure people who have cleaned out parks with fewer targets can concentrate on the gold and nickels and do very well... they can dig more targets.

Dew

 

[thebeatmachine]

Comparing the SE to the DFX the only two multifrequency detectors I've owned, I really am not interested in how they are marketed but how the perform. I can say that for coins the SE far exceeds the DFX. So 28 or not, Why take a gamble on the V3 When the SE far out performs White's last top model. White's has had a long time to get things right and are sort of the GM of Metal Detectors. I think Minelab has advance ground filtering techniques and that is why they get the depth, but its difficult thing to market. 28 frequencies sounds more concrete even if it's technically harmonics too .
I

 

[Mike Bearden]

PROVE it's BETTER than my Explorer in a real world hunt scenario and I might buy one.

I used a V3 for a few days and yes it's a tweakaholics dream come true but that ain't always a good thing. My highly tweakable DFX nor MXT couldn't find near the coins my Explorer could at good depth or in the iron mix and I know how to get the most out of a detector.

I do like the ergonomics design of the V3, MXT & DFX better than the Explorer but the electronics of the MXT & DFX just don't threaten the worth of the Explorer for me, the V3 might prove different with more time spent in the field.

Found out quick that when you push the V3 hard in a trash filled environment, it's not very battery friendly and that small display screen, although it's color, is kind of lame for the money IMO.
Didn't see anything come out of the ground that my Explorer already covered and yes I gridded the crap out of the area TRYING to see if the V3 had the better electronics but nothing surfaced that I wanted to keep. Granted 5 or 6 days of testing a new detector is NOT enough time for most but I was satisfied that it didn't out perform what I already had in my stable.

Having read their forum since they started posting, it has been one constant jab after another about the wonder from down under as they like to put it, but for me, they are the ones that need to prove how good they really are, after all, the finds made is what really counts in the long run !!! And we all know the Explorer has proved itself more times than the competition wants to admit, that's WHY they are beating their chest over there right now like a bunch of apes, they feel they FINALLY have something that will compete with the Explorer.

You can bet you butt that when I spend that much money for a detector ( any brand) that I'm going to make it hunt ... or sell the bas#$%d.

And Whites is no different than any other manufacturer, they spent 3 years developing the V3 and I've already read MANY complaints posted about audio problems etc. so it ain't all that damn special !!!

So brag on there Whites fans ... I'm listening and watching your forum too and so far I'm not convinced to lay down the bucks to buy a V3. I know that Whites was thriving for the PERFECT all in one detector with the V3 but I remain unconvinced after using it.

Maybe when Whites gets finished naming it and gets the bugs out ... I'll try it again .... MAYBE !!!


Good Hunting
Mike

 

[dewcon4414]

You are so right Mike... its worth will be proven in the field not the lab. Ill take practical experience over the drawing board any day. I know Gregg of Trans Bay in CA who is darn talented with a DFX went head to head with a couple of equally talended explorer hunter at golden gate park and had to admit they kicked his butt. Im not easy to jump on the band wagon. Dont get me wrong i think the Whites are good machines but i beleave the Explorer is more forgiving with settings and for new users can be set to their area of hunting faster and more effective. There are things about the Whites i like... weight, pinpointing, balance, faster processor, and a couple setting... but depth, TID. and the ability to handle EMI i have to give to the Explorer. I guess if the Explorers werent any good then all the other brands wouldnt be using them and the standard... and saying we are better than the EXplorer.

Dew

 

[DanRoss]

I am no electrical engineer, but I know that in the electrical world, many things can be 'processed' with hardware. If enough of the important information is handled via hardware circuits, you can significantly reduce the amount of digital processing required. I have no idea if this is how Minelab handles the issue, but I don't think you can assume that all processing is digital or that it would take 9 volts to run a machine that does a lot of (non) digital processing.

Any EE's want to weigh in on this one?

 

[Andy Sabisch]

Let's see . . . .

"I think some of that has to do with Mine Lab backing another Forum." . . . . . since they also sponsor this forum, not sure what that statement means but if you are talking about the MLO site, yes, they sponsor that (since it is the MINELAB Owners forum) but trying to drive traffic to that suite by not responding to posts????? Then you say they do not respond there either so maybe it's because they DO NOT REPLY TO POSTS due to other time committments. Do you see personal posts from Garrett or Tesoro engineers? No . . . so why not jab a stick at their lack of response as well.

"They still can't answer the question as to whether we should noise cancel in the air or on the ground ." . . . . . . seems this has been answered several times and unless you are hunting for coins floating past you in the air, put the coil on the ground and noise cancel it . . . . . . so they have a goofed up manual - use some common sense or how about trying it both ways to see what works for you. Heck, it might hit deep silver better if you wear Converse sneakers rather than loafers . . . . . if it does for you, then go for it.

As far as why Minelab does not get on the forums and post a detailed response on how the BBS or FBS circuitry transmits, receives and processes signals may just have something to do with what is called intellectual property . . . . . there's a reason that part of their detectors is not patented (so it does not have to be revealed) as well as why when they involve anyone in testing their BBS / FBS detectors they require a legal confidentiality agreement to be signed before anything is provided.

"I don't think it has anything to do with them protecting their technology either, a twelve year old, electronics whiz could probably reverse engineer an Explorer, so the idea that other metal detecting manufacturers can't, just seems pretty remote to me." . . . . hmmmm, if it was so easy a 12 year old could reverse engineer their technology, care to venture a guess why none of the other manufacturers have one it since they came out . . . . . . 1989 with BBS and 1999 with FBS???? No can deny that BBS and FBS works and very well at that . . . . . don't you think if it was that well known that it worked that some company would have hired a 12-year old to develop a variation of the technology and marketed it by now?

Here's the bottom line . . . . . DOES IT REALLY MATTER HOW FBS or BBS WORKS or are the finds one makes at the end of the day more important? Do I care exactly how a microwave works or am I happy that it pops a bag of popcorn in 3 minutes? Spending more time hunting and finding stuff seems to be a better use of one's time than trying to figure out exactly what algorithm or circuit design a detector is using.

[PS: I'm sure Mr. Digitrich will have his usual "snappy" comeback or an equally "snappy" PM . . . . . can't wait!]

 

[grumpyolman]

Is it just me or what? There seems to be more abuse of each other on this forum than on the other forums. Andy! I would never have guessed that you'd be so unkind to the errant poster and feel the need to defend Minelab. You are the guy that many emulate and try to imitate. Anyone with an IQ over 90 can see the faults with the logic by the poster to whom you responded. I wish the moderator would have eliminated his post. Not because of a differing opinion but because of the undisguised profanity. Bryce...There are non-adults who read this forum too. The profanity was objectionable to me...a grumpyolman. Before this gets to the level that got Erik booted, please everyone cool your jets. It's not worth the energy to get this upset about something we do for fun. There's some irony in that isn't there? Minelab 'extremists'. Hope not. Regards...Jim

 

[dewcon4414]

Jim i think you missed the drama on a couple of the other forums that had many posters bailing. Cant say ive ever had a problem with MLO not responding to my questions.. sometimes you are much better off with a PM thou than an open post. They get a little testy on occassions. Andy is right about... who cares if its working in the field. It was my understanding that Whites did barrow some technoligy to develope its dual system... but then thats alway been a rumor. Andy did at least tell me something ive always felt was correct. Ive just never liked ground balancing in the air... ive always preferred to do it at my normal swinging height. Hey but like you said its what works for me. Wow Erik got booted??? But of course i dont know the full story. I think there are a lot of things we may or may not like to see changed about our equipment... sometimes venting gets that point across to people who may be able to suggest changes. I beleave sponsors and monitors have to have a little thicker skin and not take things quit as personal. Comes with the territory sorry guys. Ive been on other forums where everything you say seems to become an argument. Think its time to chose our words more carefully and close or delete this thread.

Dew

 

[MackieG]

First and foremost I'd like to Thank All who responded to this post. I did gain some information as to the dectors operation. Although some, got off track and wanted to make this a p___ing contest of my dog hunts better than yours. As I stated in the original post -- this was not my intent. When a person post a question and it starts a war -- you have to wonder if it was worth asking the question. (Could be why a lot people are lurkers -- don't want to get involved in mud-slinging).
And a short note to you Bryce: I Thank You for letting a harmless post that just had the intent of asking a question be put on the forum. (At least I thought it was harmless when I first asked) Now I agree with Grumpyolman, and wish I had never posted at all. Guess I'll just go back to lurking and hope any questions I have are covered in another discussion. Mack