Trying to get used to the Elite, could use some help plz...

[fir469]

Well I've had the Elite out for about 6 hunts now. I'm coming from quite a few years with a DFX and then a Musketeer Advantage for a long while. The elite is very similar in many ways to using the Musky. I mount them the same and they both pinpoint very well using the toe edge of the coil without switching to AM. The tones I have to get used too, I can tell the signals apart but don't know what they all stand for yet in terms of conductance range other the the coin sound and the foil sound. I'm using a Elite with 10" BBS coil.

I guess my questions stem from threshold, nulling, and speed issues... so here goes...

1. When using auto sens and switching to manual, I have very mild soil and could run high sens on all other machines... So I set the Sov to around 10-12 oclock. I do notice I find a lot of iron signals that false as high tones with the manual sens. Am I running too high?? The threshold remains stable and unwaivering but I do get falses from a lot of iron...

2. When using the "Sov Wiggle" which I'm used to from using the Musky (Easy to separate targets and check questionables that way), I notice that I'm a lot of times able to pull a really sweet sound and tone from iron a lot... I'll get a slight tone hiccup crossing iron with a null, so I'll recheck the target with the wiggle and it will often times produce a strong good higher conductance tone, but when dug it usually ends up a nail or chunk of iron. Am I using the wiggle wrong or is this normal?? Am I reading to far into a bad signal??

3. After a null I'll often get a return to threshold that increases in pitch in about 3 stages... Null, hummm, Hmmmm, HUMMM... normal operation?? Like a SAT reset??

4. And lastly for now I guess is sweep speed in farm fields... I am a very slow speed sweeper, from using the DFX with an SEF and going slow and steady enough to find coins at 14" fairly often, I move a turtle speed with the Sov where I hunt. However, in fields I need to cover more ground with haste due to reseeding and plowing. At what rate of speed will the sov still catch at least 90% of targets and how quickly will it reset to detection from an iron null?? The Musky is a very fast sweep speed/ recovery speed machine and doesn't miss a thing down to 10-11" on a coin and about 6-8" on buttons easily. Is it worth it to even use the Sov or should I stick with the Musky??

Thanks for your help guys, I read this Sov forum for over a year before buying one and always wanted one... I've read about 80% of the old posts going back to 06 and gained a wealth of info. I started finding quite a bit right away with the Sovereign and found the transition smooth from the Musky. Just gotta fine tune it now...

 

[lloyd0161]

In my experience the Sovereign is very good but not much different than other detectors with certain junk items. I have owned an XS-2 and my hunting buddy has the Sovereign Elite and I have gone back to the Musky after many years. The one thing I noticed is that the Sovereign will ignore steel bottle caps while the Musky loves them. So much so that steel bottle caps sound like a quarter but there is a slight difference which I am working on distinguishing. The steel bottle caps appear to have a slightly sharper tone than the soft rounded sound of the coin with the Musky. I will eventually figure out how to tell the difference here. A better set of headphones may make the difference. The Sovereign on the the other hand loves aluminum screw caps and can slaw. I dug a lot of this looking for coins even at full disc. The "only" junk item I have dug with the Musky is steel bottle caps at full disc. There is always the occasional large steel/ iron target that has fooled every detector I have owned. These are usually checked and verified with all metal/ pinpoint though and thew size of the target is apparent. The Sovereign has a very slow recovery speed when compared to the Musky which has a very fast recovery speed. This may be the downfall of the Musky when it comes to steel bottle caps. With the Musky, the smaller 7.25" coil has an easier time with bottle caps than the 10 inch coil. With the Sovereign, high pitched targets are either a coin or some aluminum object with the occasional large iron target. This is usually at full disc. These have been some observations so far. I am still testing.

 

[Critterhunter]

With time you'll easily be able to tell false iron coin spikes from an iffy coin. Mainly watch the VDI as you wiggle your way around the target. That's one way...The iron will give much more in the way of negative numbers versus a deep coin which won't go negative nearly as much and steadily tries to climb the scale to 180 with some randomness but not nearly as much as trash or iron. The audio is also a clue to use. Also, go into PP and see if the target moves off to the side on you. That's a sure sign it's iron as the coin spike will often be off the tip of the iron.

I haven't really had a problem with can slaw fooling me on my GT. Only time I end up digging it is when I'm gold ring hunting. Screw caps are easy for the most part once you learn the slight "warbly" sound they make and the dipping they'll do like down to 176 depending on which way you sweep over them. The only thing to watch is that a coin right on the surface will often give this sick sort of response because it's overloading the machine a bit. Lift the coil a few inches and the coin right on the surface will smooth out while the screw cap will still give you the sick sound and dipping audio. Once you learn it you'll almost never dig those unless you are going after them in the hopes of a masked coin sounding that sick.

Yes, running too high of sensitivity on any machine will trick you more as to good versus bad targets. That's not exclusive to the Sovereign, and with my testing I've found that running it that high isn't giving you best depth anyway. Once you learn it's language I'd say I've dug less trash and more treasure with this machine when I want to be picky than I have with any other I've owned. It's audio and VDI is that good at telling you what's up. The other pesky target for me was round pull tab tails until I learned them. They'll stay about 136 to 139 but can get up into the lower nickle zone at about 142, but it's easy to spot them by the jumpy ID and not as good of audio as compared to a nickle.

As for sweep speed, I've found that with the way I calibrate sensitivity (much lower than most would think is best) the machine prefers what I would call a medium sweep speed for best depth. The higher you run sensitivity the slower your sweep needs to be. Also, if you throw it into silent search mode Minelab says you can pick up your sweep even more. Sometimes when I want to cover a large area quicker (such as a spot on the beach when I'm running out of time) I'll pick up my sweep speed to probably above medium....roughly the speed most Whites users will use when not going super fast. The trick is to pay close attention to the threshold. Any null or distortion of it in any way such as a change in pitch means stop and check that spot more closely/slowly and then do the fast/short wiggle over it. I've played with sweep speed over buried targets and yes real fast will lose any reaction to it but something well above medium will still give you some sort of reaction to tip you off to check it out. And as said, super slow as most recommend seems to cost me depth on my GT with the way I calibrate sensitivity for best/deepest response (much lower than what is stable).

 

[fir469]

Thanks for the heads up on the sweep speed Critter, I was hoping that was the case. i just can't see turtle crawling in a 200 acre field lol.

So I guess it's highly probable to miss targets while waiting for the threshold to reset from an iron null, arg... some places I hunt it's almost all iron nulls, this may pose a problem...

I've noticed that iron does peg the meter in the negative much more often when wiggling then a good questionable target does... but what if you aren't using a meter?? Also is there any reason why the wiggle turns many iron signals into what sounds like a great signal?? I seem to be able to pull a good signal out of at least 50% of my iron nulls with the wiggle...

Crown caps fooled me for the first 2 hunts but i now hear the warble/choppy sound in them and avoid them. Aluminum screw caps almost always read 176 on my meter here.

At what manual sens setting is depth at it's max before having negative effects on iron and trash?? 12? 1? 11? I've been running auto because I can't seem to get the hang of where to set the manual sens... I get a smooth threshold at 10-12 which is high, but am I too high??

How much of a difference in these problems would there be if I were to switch to a SEF coil?? I loved it on my DFX and never used any other coil once I had it...

And to Lloyd, it seems the Musky may be the single most underrated detector ever made... Super fast recovery, fast or slow sweep, no depth loss with high disc, deep deep deep, and easily distinguishable iron... If only it had multi tones or a VDI meter, I would never use anything else...

 

[bootyhoundpa]

i had the same problem with getting a decent signal on old rusty nails... ive found that if im digging alot of nails that my sensetivity is probably to high... ive also found that after a heavy rain the small iron chirps alot.... i would recommend setting up a test garden with 2 or 3 coins buried about 4 inches deep and also bury one of those rusty nails.... keep the targets a few feet apart.... use this test garden as a tool to set your sensetivity to the optimum setting ' ... adjust the sensetivity to the point that the coins give you the best signal but the nail nulls... i use this method every time before venturing out on a hunt .... the optimum sensetivity setting will change depending on moisture content in the soil..

 

[Critterhunter]

This machine may not have the fastest recovery speed but that's a non-issue so long as you wiggle over and check out any nulls or changes in threshold. Unmasking ability is more about the size of the coil's field being transmitted into the ground than recovery speed....So long as you investigate each "null" or other "junk" signals properly with the wiggle to look around and over them for other things. Besides. Iron Mask On gives this machine special abilities that no "fast" detector can compete with in terms of taking a good signal mixed with iron or other junk and isolating that signal to report the good and ignore the bad. You'll be shocked at how crusty iron can come out of the same hole that a nice silver coin was also in. To me it's better at this than my Explorers were using "Iron Mask". IMO the SEF coils will help with separation even more than the already great ability of your standard DD stock 10" coil (which is a real good coil at that in it's own respect, but the SEFs are even better). The SEFs seem to run smoother over rough ground and heavy iron than the stock coil as well. That doesn't though automatically translate into more depth (see other threads so I won't re-hash this yet again).

Today I was griding another section of a badly mineralized beach that has the GT almost to it's knees in terms of performance and depth. I've never ran into such a bad spot for a Sovereign and would never have thought it possible that this machine could be cut down so much. I can only imagine what other lessor non-Minelabs (or even my Explorers) would have suffered at the same beach. The SEF coil runs smooth as silk there but for some reason the stock coil don't. Anyway, off that topic and onto my point- I was trying to finish up the last section I was grid ding before leaving and so I needed to pick up the pace a bit. My sweep speed went from a slow medium to a medium leaning on the faster side of that. My attention was constantly focused on the threshold. Any change at all in it meant to stop and investigate with the wiggle.

Moving a bit too fast with your sweep than you should can cost you proper response but it won't cost you noticing a target to check out better, so long as you are alert to any slight waiver or even a null in the threshold. Now, there is a fine line between going faster than you should be still being able to hit on and investigate targets, and going over that line to such a speed where now the machine might not even produce a response or more likely will just null on something deeper. That fine line between faster but with the ability to detect a response, and too fast to where there is a good chance you'll completely miss the target...Is something you have to learn for yourself.

Stick a dime in the ground at depth and sweep over it from slow to too fast using your normal "search swing" (not the wiggle). Keep increasing your sweep speed until the target starts getting lost. Keep that speed in your mind and stay just below it when you have to move faster than normal. Do this test "on site" because ground minerals and such can cause one speed to be too fast at one site but not at another.

When I was learning that max stable sensitivity didn't mean best depth I was prone to digging a lot of iron that I thought might be deep fringe coin hits. Since I don't max out sensitivity anymore that's even less of an issue, but just the same there are some clues. PP in discriminate and then switch over to PP mode and see if the target has moved off to the side. That's a sure sign of a false iron hit. Besides paying attention to the VDI's response and seeing more in the way of negative numbers, pay close attention to the audio. You'll find clues in that as well to it being iron.

The way I would suggest to speed up the learning process on deep iron versus iffy coins is to stick a coin in the ground at fringe depth. I do that at the start of each hunt to calibrate sensitivity for best response and depth but there is a side benefit to this normal routine. It gives me a lot of practice at seeing and hearing how fringe coins just on the edge of detection depth react. Once you do that a few times it becomes real obvious what the differences are between ghost iron signals and real coins that are at the outer fringes.

Some of this can't really be explained (lord knows I try, don't I? ) and needs to be seen and heard. One thing I can relate is that the coin will be a little random in numbers but for the most part will steadily climb into the 140's, 150's, 160's, 170's, and may or may not hit 180. Although it's somewhat random you'll be able to discern a distinct progressive climbing pattern as you wiggle fast/short over the coin. Once in a while (almost like clock work) the signal will also make a certain sound and bounce down into the negative numbers for a second, then slowly start the climb again. I call that trait "falling like a house of cards". You'll see what I mean. Where as iron will go "negative" on you much more often and doesn't really have a rhyme or reason for the way it's ID keeps bouncing around, though it will also try to get to 180 but not nearly in as distinct of a pattern.

The audio has clues too but once again a lot of things can't really be taught it must be seen, heard, felt, and smelled. OK, maybe not smelled or felt but you get what I'm trying to say. School yourself by sticking a coin at fringe depth. Do what somebody else suggested and also stick one of those iron nails that gave you a fake coin hit into the ground at depth to. You'll soon see a distinct difference in tone and ID patterns from one to the other.

Now, I'm not saying that once in a while I don't dig up a nail, but usually I know it's going to be a nail but just the same I dug it "just in case". No machine is perfect, but I promise you you'll dig less trash with this machine than pretty much any other on the market once you put in the time and learn it's language. I wasn't exactly a novice when I got a GT but just the same all my prior experience with many other machines I've owned over the years (including Explorers) didn't account for putting the time in and learning what the Sovereign has to say to me. Some things can't be read in a book and must be learned on the street so to speak.

I can only tell you that I too was having fits with iron, round tab tails, screw caps, bottle caps, and even entire pop cans (needed to learn to judge target size all over again on this machine). Boy, talk about getting knocked down a few pegs with how experienced you feel you are. I was digging up pop cans that I thought I learned the secret and obvious traits to avoid years ago on all my other machines. Put the time in and you'll get to like the machine more and more. It's been about a year for me and I'm still learning a lot on every hunt. It's not that the Sovereign is hard to learn. It's not. It's just that it has so much more to tell you than most detectors on the market.

 

[fir469]

Critter you are a wealth of Sov info, and I sir, am grateful. You answered my questions perfectly... I'll hafta do some thorough checking on fringe depth targets for sure. I feel ya on the learning in the field, definitely makes the difference for sure. I can't wait for a hard rain, it's been to dry to test and learn a new machine. You can barely dig, depth is greatly reduced, and signal quality is poor. Ugh. Will post my learning results here... Thanks guys!!

 

[Critterhunter]

Hit the beach for some faster learning because targets are much easier to recover even if you don't have a scoop. You'll also bother with targets than you might otherwise pass up on land and so get to see what "bad" sounding targets turn out to be. It's a quick way to get up to speed on pinpointing as well.

Also, just a thought on sweep speeds. One thing most never consider is that there is a way to increase your coverage of large areas such as beaches or open fields without having to push the limits in sweep speed and possibly lose some targets. Why not look into a larger coil? Think about it, the 15x12 covers the same amount of ground in two sweeps that it takes 3 sweeps of the stock 10" coil to cover (15"x2=30", 10"x3=30"). More than that in fact because the 15x12 is 2" wider, so in reality your covering more in two sweeps than it takes the 10" stock coil to cover in three sweeps.

 

[fir469]

Oh I'm definitely gonna pick up an SEF since I loved it on my DFX, but even still that extra coverage doesn't nearly make up for a faster swing speed when it comes to fields... Beach is also vast but is always there 12 months a year to hunt, fields you're lucky to end up with 3 months of huntable time before seeding after the harvest. Now go down to just weekends and that's only 24 chances to cover mass acreage lol. I may just stick with the Musky for the fields... Plus I've heard FBS and BBS machines have problems with fresh plowed soil as they need that solid matrix to attain the depth. The Musky is killer in plowed fields...

 

[kered]

Map the field out with the musky then go over it with the Sov in the most productive areas