Variance between instances of the Explorer

[BlackX]

Been a long couple of weeks. Went out to WI and got engaged two weekends ago only to come back and get a phone call the next day that my dad was going so packed the kids and went to Florida for this past weekend for a funeral on Monday. Haven't gotten much digging in except the one day I took off work just to try to find some peace of mind and went hunting where I'd found the 1803 the weekend before. Only managed a '17, '18, and '19 wheat (though the sequence was cool). Anyhow...

I suspect I won't be able to state this clearly enough but...

One thing I've been wondering for a while when reading about other folks experiences with their Explorers and comparing what different people say and what I find with mine is that I'm beginning to think there's probably noticeable variation between instances of the same model. For instance, folks talk about the flutey sound for silver etc being a non-flat, variable tone, while all I get on mine is the flat monotone sound tone no matter what settings I've tried.

I wonder what the tolerances are between machines when they come off the line. Are there factory-adjusted trim pots in the Explorer?

If it's not trim pots being adjusted toward the end of the QC range, I'd suspect that total tolerances of the components in the machines produced fit into half of a bell curve with most machines being relatively consistent and outliers with a far range of instances where multiple parts all within tolerance add up and end up with a machine that acts noticeably different than others.

Is this making sense? Anyone else wondered about the same thing? Have a different explanation? (I hate it when I know what I mean but can't get it out in words.)

 

[Great Republic]

Sorry to here about your dad.I wasn't really close with my dad through the years but after he past, I think of him very often and wonder what he would do in a given situation.I guess I take his advice more now than I ever did.

 

[Crispytoo]

First off my condolences with regards to your Father. I lost my Mother last October and understand the need to get out and do some hunting to clear your head.

I do believe that there is going to be subtle differences between different machines. Some people will only buy cars that are manufactured on certain days of the week due to efficiency studies relating to the workers' moods and attitudes during the course of the work week. Some detectors are going to be outside of the bell curve average. Some will probably run hotter than normal and some less. People experience this with different coils of the same type, that being, some run hot (almost to the point of being unstable) and others cold (less sensitivity and depth). I can see how the combination of "acceptable quality control" tolerances could add up to make a noticeably different machine. Sort of like a "perfect storm" of slight swings within each component that individually wouldn't be obvious but collectively make a difference. The fact that you've never heard the "flutey" sounds is odd in itself. I know a dealer that swears that there's no need to send in machines periodically to have them tuned up and yet it seems that many detectorists do just that and claim that they can tell the difference. I suspect that the only way you'll ever find out is to either send it in for calibration or run your detector along side another to compare target signals.

 

[Chris/MA]

My condolences on your loss...
Definitely try to get out plenty before the weather turns cold, it'll help take your mind off things.
I sent you an email a couple weeks ago, but didn't hear back, now I know why.

How tolerances affect the performance depends somewhat on the circuit design. It may have analog trimpots, but the calibration could also be done digitally in a special factory mode. But the underlying electronic components do have tolerances, regardless, and the combination of that and tolerances in the coils could add up to something.

Generally if a machine does tone ID, there's some sort of VCO (voltage-controlled-oscillator) involved. Though the input to it can obviously be switched between a ferrous-ness level and a conductivity level.
How that's implemented, who knows. Quite possible they have a digital-analog converter attached to the microprocessor to provide the audio output, and the mode switching is done completely in software.


I think I get what the "flutey" tone is, seems like it has a slight variation in it. (as opposed to a hit from a hot rock, where at least the high portion is pretty solid) Why this occurs I'm not exactly sure.

 

[Erik in NJ]

Lost mine in '99 and I still miss him dearly. Regards, Erik

 

[king-ghidorah]

Sorry to hear about the loss of your father. My sympathies to everyone involved around you.

 

[Andrus(ut)]

Hang in with your loss of your father - I know how you feel, learned it a few years back.

Your description of what I am going to call a "Square wave tone" does not sound like my machine at all. I can hear a kick up and a kick down with high sweet sound of silver (flute tone). Even in trash where there is Iron and other signals, most of the time by working angles and moving the coil only 3 or 4 inches over the target you can get the same signal, sometimes you only get it one direction but always sounds good (as far as classic signal goes). Nasty signals are sometimes the best in our hunted out parks which for me could sound like anything - if they got depth and pinpoint small and centered there coming out. The kick up time is very short so maybe we both hear the same thing it is just our description that differs.

Anyway HH

 

[Big Fang Coin Biter]

Hi Rich,
The obvious is to check and see that you have the tones setup right - the machine can be set to single tone. If you have it set to "multi-tone" (not sure what the setting is actually called) then try this. Put a quarter on some clean ground. Run the coil over it at about three inches. You should have a fairly "flat" tone (like a single tone). Raise the coil up to about eight inches and slowly sweep over the quarter. You should notice that there are "secondary" tones on both sides of the "flat" tone you had before. It is like a tiny arpeggio up to the tone then another tiny arpeggio as you go off the signal. It happens quickly but you can definitely hear the difference as you raise the coil up. Where are you running your gain? I am thinking that with a maxed out gain you may not get that variability in tone. Try setting it in the middle if you had it at a high setting.

Hope this helps, HH - BF

 

[BJ in Okla.]

Could you post all of your settings.
I have had 3 XS's, 3 ll's and now have the SE and all have had the high tone on Silver.
The Sovereign tones were my favorite.
Someone has a site that has Explorer tones to listen to, maybe someone can post a link to it, and you could listen to them and if yours is not the same, then you have a problem.

Sorry for the loss of your Dad.

Good luck with your engagement.
BJ

 

[johnnywilliamson]

Sorry to hear about your father, Rich. My condolences on your loss.

As far as my recollection goes, my experience with the "flutey" sounds was that only I heard them using the 10" Slimline coil, versus my smaller Excellerator coils and the Pro Coil (using pretty much the exact same settings). Have you noticed sound differences between coils? Just a thought. Take care, and congratulations on your recent engagement. Johnny

 

[BlackX]

Thanks for the thoughts, folks.

My example of possible variability seems to have brought out a lot of responses but it could as easily be applied to things like depth or falsing.

The fact that you've never heard the "flutey" sounds is odd in itself.... I suspect that the only way you'll ever find out is to either send it in for calibration or run your detector along side another to compare target signals.

Part of that might be what people call flutely. It could be my interpretation of what that means or it could mean something is different about my detector. I've only had one chance to check with someone else who had an SE so far--at the fall hunt--and forgot to do that. I'd been thinking about it beforehand.

...I can hear a kick up and a kick down with high sweet sound of silver (flute tone). Even in trash where there is Iron and other signals, most of the time by working angles and moving the coil only 3 or 4 inches over the target you can get the same signal, sometimes you only get it one direction but always sounds good (as far as classic signal goes). Nasty signals are sometimes the best in our hunted out parks which for me could sound like anything - if they got depth and pinpoint small and centered there coming out. The kick up time is very short so maybe we both hear the same thing it is just our description that differs.

The description aspect easily could be (see above). Much of what I've heard described as flutey sounds like variability in the signal--your kick-up/-down--and I tend to get very flat sounds with only amplitude ramping off at the ends rather than a pitch change, which is what I think you, and others, are describing. But I think you bring up an interesting point: it could be that the variability, when it occurs, is at the beginning and end of the signal, rather than in the middle, which is what I've been imagining. One of the things I've been trying to do is listen for those "edge" differences. For instance, hot rocks tend to give a "pop" and iron tends to have a rubber-band-like "twang". But trying to hear anything different in the midst of iron that I can "see" is awful hard for me. I can often make iron sound really good--what silver, etc. sounds like--at particular angles. Sometimes I can do it--pull something good that's mixed with iron--but I usually won't be able to say what I could hear that was different that made me dig it, no matter how much I analyze it. Certainly nothing that's as distinctive as it sounds like it is to you.

The obvious is to check and see that you have the tones setup right - the machine can be set to single tone. If you have it set to "multi-tone" (not sure what the setting is actually called) then try this. Put a quarter on some clean ground. Run the coil over it at about three inches. You should have a fairly "flat" tone (like a single tone). Raise the coil up to about eight inches and slowly sweep over the quarter. You should notice that there are "secondary" tones on both sides of the "flat" tone you had before. It is like a tiny arpeggio up to the tone then another tiny arpeggio as you go off the signal. It happens quickly but you can definitely hear the difference as you raise the coil up. Where are you running your gain? I am thinking that with a maxed out gain you may not get that variability in tone. Try setting it in the middle if you had it at a high setting.

It's on multi with variability and limits both set to 10. (Though, given what I'm beginning to think about volume levels for my ears, I need to look up which is amplitude and which is frequency and drop the amp. one a bit.) I'll definitely have to try the distance test you mention. Do you only hear the "flutey" sound on deeper silver? Does it do that with deep copper too?

Could you post all of your settings.
I have had 3 XS's, 3 ll's and now have the SE and all have had the high tone on Silver.
The Sovereign tones were my favorite.
Someone has a site that has Explorer tones to listen to, maybe someone can post a link to it, and you could listen to them and if yours is not the same, then you have a problem.BJ

As mentioned above, Variability and Limits set to 10. Gain is now at 7 but occasionally down to 6 or up to 8. Ferrous. Screen is usually wide open or set with crown caps and 0-31 discriminated out. (At times I toggle back and forth between those two screens and perhaps auto when trying to figure out what something is and whether to dig or not.) Sensitivity is usually run to unstable and backed off a point or two.
I preferred the Sov sounds too. Much more information in the analog signal than there seems to be in the digital one. But that everything copper and above sounding the same bugged me. I'd like a detector that takes the best part from each.

As far as my recollection goes, my experience with the "flutey" sounds was that only I heard them using the 10" Slimline coil, versus my smaller Excellerator coils and the Pro Coil (using pretty much the exact same settings). Have you noticed sound differences between coils?

I've thought about the coil difference but haven't noticed anything in particular. The Slimline and the Pro are the ones I have the most hours on and they seem to be the same in that regard. I have a WOT and an X-5 that I don't have near the hours on but I never noticed a diff about that (though I did about other aspects).

 

[grumpy]

Sorry about your dad, remember the good times with him.

Something I have that I think maybe more have than realize it as for the flutie sounds is I dont have them. I dont have the hearing to hear the sounds they all talk about the sweet flutie sounds.
This like to drove me nuts trying to make the machine sound right and trying to hear the great high flutie sounds then on one of the visits to my ear man I had a good discussion with him and he said I probally did not have that any longer as my high is gone like ladies hi voices are hard to hear. I can still tell the pitches are different but to get down to real nice high pitch flutie sounds and pick them out. FORGET IT. cant do it. A penny and a Silver half sound exactly alike to me. SO I assume there there but I cant hear them.
So dont beat yourself up on what others hear find your way around it and go on. I dig a little more than some and rely on the meter a little more than others but I get it done and still have a great time.
Good Luck
Grumpy