jackintexas
New member
This is a video about gold rings and pull tabs....Jack
http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=wqzmvr%3E&s=9#.V4HgEkYrLcs
http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=wqzmvr%3E&s=9#.V4HgEkYrLcs
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Video about gold rings and pull tabs
- Thread starter jackintexas
- Start date
Frank in NH
Active member
What machine and what program?
Tom Slick said:
Yup. That's all the guy has done. He's only shown that similar-like tabs have learnable TID. Because, just like nickels, for instance, they will have repeating TID's. Thus surprise surprise have the same TID. Since, gasp, they're the "same". And gold rings, on the other hand, have a million variations of TID's. Since no two gold rings have identical size, shape, karat, weight, etc....
Thus all the guy has done, is the age-old trick of "notching". Aka "ring-enhancement". Humorously, at the beginning of the video, he thinks he's done what no one else has done or discovered. But on the contrary, this technique has been bandied about since the very earliest TID machines hit the market in about 1982-83-ish. It was known even then that round & square tabs (of the most recurring types) will, of course, give a particular TID. And sure: You can notch those out. But you WILL miss gold rings that fell into that notch. Admittedly only a small percentage of rings, granted.
His little trick goes out the window quick, when you enter into a park where lawn mowers made can-slaw. And where foil size wads abound. Then he'll quickly realize that there's STILL a lot of aluminum cr*p that reads exactly like some of his rings.
Or put another way: ANY TWO OBJECTS can be shown to "sound/read different than each other". Ok. But the problem is, that SO TOO can any two gold rings be shown to "read different than each other". And any 2 aluminum nuggets or shrapnel or foil wads will "read different than each other".
Mike Hillis
Well-known member
I liked the size of that gentleman's gold rings!!!
I liked the man's video. The man himself reminds me of my Granddad.
HH
Mike
I liked the man's video. The man himself reminds me of my Granddad.
HH
Mike
Yeah, the vid goes to show what we already know----that you can I.D. (some) p.t.'s from gold rings.-----The problem is--there are SO many of those buggars (p.t.'s) out there "in the wild" that comes in just like (or very similar) to various gold rings.-----Why's that?? (everyone asks at once) 
----The answer is:---because the p.t. manufacturers was thoughtful enough to produce a wide variety of p.t.'s (over the years) to "delight the detectorist".-----Just like gold rings were/are made in a wide variety to delight the little ladies of our great country.--and most gold rings but certainly not ALL are womens rings that are lost/found.-----In 41 yrs., I've said many of times---"I don't EVER want to know how many gold rings I've went right over the top of"--don't think my heart could take it!
-----I think that could pretty much be said of all of us if we are honest with ourselves.------Most gold rings are in the foil range anyway.------You just try to narrow the odds in your favor the best you can and go for it!
----The answer is:---because the p.t. manufacturers was thoughtful enough to produce a wide variety of p.t.'s (over the years) to "delight the detectorist".-----Just like gold rings were/are made in a wide variety to delight the little ladies of our great country.--and most gold rings but certainly not ALL are womens rings that are lost/found.-----In 41 yrs., I've said many of times---"I don't EVER want to know how many gold rings I've went right over the top of"--don't think my heart could take it!-----I think that could pretty much be said of all of us if we are honest with ourselves.------Most gold rings are in the foil range anyway.------You just try to narrow the odds in your favor the best you can and go for it!jackintexas
New member
I don't intend to get into a big discussion but none of you have a clue as what I have. If you think so duplicate it and post it on this forum.....Jack
Hoser John
New member
The great folks at TESORO came out with the coin machine the Golden Sabre back when I was in biz in 85. It not only introduced notch disc to the world BUT also notch accept. It works fantastic to this day as the wonderful folks at TESORO, Rusty Rocks, as 100% rebuilt for free over 25 years after original sale. When someone loses a gold ring accept rocks this detectorists world as much easier to find. You swing slower.both accept/reject notch, and wait for a double hit-back and forth-and good to go.The old school electronics seems to work better than the new micro units, once again age brings performance,John
Hoser John said:
Well, yes and no. TID had already been introduced in 1982 (possibly '81 ?). And although it might have been programmable to hear only certain zones , and knock out other zones, yet you could accomplish the very same thing by simply watching the needle. So in effect, that *was* sort of like "notching". People did it all the time prior to 1985.
This probably interests no one, but back in the 1970's a fellow named Ken Whitener, using a Tesoro Inca, found that by running in low discriminate and then comparing a detected target's signal quality in a/m, he could tell tabs from coin signals and became famous locally for one of the first to develop a "notch" system. Point? Nothing wrong with experimenting and learning your detector. We all know NO detector is foolproof.
Sounds like some sort of audio comparison ? I'll pass comment on that. But your post made me realize, there was also an earlier "notch" method: Which even pre-dated Teknetic's foray into the first "bouncing needle" machine of 1981 or '82:
Back in the days prior to that (1970s), the earlier discriminators (whether motion disc. or TR disc) were a "progressive knob" type. That is to say: You had a dial marked "discriminate". And perhaps it had #'s 1 to 10 for example. If you rotated it up to perhaps 3-ish, you'd loose foil. If you rotated further to 5-ish you'd loose nickels. If you rotated to 5 or 6 you start to loose tabs. And so forth, and so on up the conductive scale.
Well it didn't take long for geniuses to come up with the realization that they could achieve notching via the process of elimination. It was tedious, but it went like this: If you got a target while only in iron disc. Then sampled progressively upwards to find out exactly where that target "dropped out", then you could discern that, therefore, the target read right under that last coordinate. Thus, for example, if nickels were lost at 5, that would mean they were a 4.5 on the scale right ? But if you lowered your disc. to 4.5 and still didn't get the signal, then you knew it wasn't a nickel.
It was very broad categories (very hard to get a single-tune knob to very precise micro-points). But perahaps it could at least be made to be as accurate as the CZ6 scale. That has 7 different broad zones. So you could *at least* achieve that amount of categories. But it was time-consuming at best.
There was even a short-lived invention that was an aftermarket external "ratchet" device, that was fitted on 6000 Ds. It had pre-selected target points on your knob. Where all you needed to do was flip it back and forth with a finger lever device that led to linkage. No having to strain your eyes to study where the little knob was at. But I'm sure it sold very few. As it was very shortly thereafter that machines simply had the conductive meter readings right there for you
Back in the days prior to that (1970s), the earlier discriminators (whether motion disc. or TR disc) were a "progressive knob" type. That is to say: You had a dial marked "discriminate". And perhaps it had #'s 1 to 10 for example. If you rotated it up to perhaps 3-ish, you'd loose foil. If you rotated further to 5-ish you'd loose nickels. If you rotated to 5 or 6 you start to loose tabs. And so forth, and so on up the conductive scale.
Well it didn't take long for geniuses to come up with the realization that they could achieve notching via the process of elimination. It was tedious, but it went like this: If you got a target while only in iron disc. Then sampled progressively upwards to find out exactly where that target "dropped out", then you could discern that, therefore, the target read right under that last coordinate. Thus, for example, if nickels were lost at 5, that would mean they were a 4.5 on the scale right ? But if you lowered your disc. to 4.5 and still didn't get the signal, then you knew it wasn't a nickel.
It was very broad categories (very hard to get a single-tune knob to very precise micro-points). But perahaps it could at least be made to be as accurate as the CZ6 scale. That has 7 different broad zones. So you could *at least* achieve that amount of categories. But it was time-consuming at best.
There was even a short-lived invention that was an aftermarket external "ratchet" device, that was fitted on 6000 Ds. It had pre-selected target points on your knob. Where all you needed to do was flip it back and forth with a finger lever device that led to linkage. No having to strain your eyes to study where the little knob was at. But I'm sure it sold very few. As it was very shortly thereafter that machines simply had the conductive meter readings right there for you
Ha! Yeah, Tom. I actually tried to put a homemade ratchet device on my Wilson detector and it didn't turn out so well. Before I installed a tab check toggle on my Tesoro Silver umax, I mere!y marked a point on the dial where tabs just broke up. Then I would thumb the knob ONCE to that spot. If it went silent, I probably had a nickel; breaking up, a tab; and a clad if still a strong signal. Life saver if I wanted to double check and had left my notch machine at home.
Hoser John
New member
Yes that's me long ago and far away. Goldie my pet was for the store(sold /bankrupt by new owners) advertising and charity events but also had a huge blue whale made up for a charity event raising cash for Save The Whales functions. Quik non related story-my great bud George made all the mylar balloonsalso for the summer Olympics(over 100,000 for opening ceremony) in the OC and blew out all the electricity in the OC as conductive and hit 1,000s of power lines/transformers and turned the county-during the Olympics even-into a parking lot. Sorry but ol'man does get off subject a bit-John
Interesting video Jack. Thank you.
In all honesty, the CTX 3030 can do the same with the press of button, no programming needed. Once a user ID's the specific ferrous/conductive parameter of the different tabs, (ID charts are available if they don't wish to experiment), the CTX operator can simply press a button twice to reject that VERY SPECIFIC AND NARROW ferrous/ conductive area, when encountering a bunch of them in a trashy area. At any time, with the press of a button, that narrow parameter('s) can be restored to be accepted again. Just that easy. Page 9 of the CTX manual explains the simple and accurate function. Any CTX user who has used that function can verify it. It's just a more advanced, narrower notch feature. The ability to notch discriminate has been around a long time. I prefer to run more wide open anyway. If I hit on a known ferrous/conductive pulltab parameter, I make the decision to dig or not as it comes.
Realistically, all WE are doing, is rejecting with a HIGH degree of probability, a nuisance material that falls narrowly within the very wide conductive range that gold items also do. There is still no guarantee that we have not also rejected a gold object falling into that range.
Until the technology exists to ID a buried item with CERTAINTY as gold, your program, or the CTX's abilities, or any other "system" or machine,or notch discrimation,is just increasing the PROBABILITY of rejecting a pulltab, not gold jewelry. None of them is a guarantee! Gold falls into far too wide a conductive range, where Tom in CA has pointed out, so do a lot of other unwanted items, can slaw, foil, etc.,etc. It's still a crapshoot, just with better odds.
As to having a "clue" to what you have Jack, if you have the abilty to ID a gold item with CERTAINTY, you'll be a millionaire! Even if you can say with CERTAINTY that it's not gold, that would be great too. I just didn't see it in the video.
Good Hunting!
In all honesty, the CTX 3030 can do the same with the press of button, no programming needed. Once a user ID's the specific ferrous/conductive parameter of the different tabs, (ID charts are available if they don't wish to experiment), the CTX operator can simply press a button twice to reject that VERY SPECIFIC AND NARROW ferrous/ conductive area, when encountering a bunch of them in a trashy area. At any time, with the press of a button, that narrow parameter('s) can be restored to be accepted again. Just that easy. Page 9 of the CTX manual explains the simple and accurate function. Any CTX user who has used that function can verify it. It's just a more advanced, narrower notch feature. The ability to notch discriminate has been around a long time. I prefer to run more wide open anyway. If I hit on a known ferrous/conductive pulltab parameter, I make the decision to dig or not as it comes.
Realistically, all WE are doing, is rejecting with a HIGH degree of probability, a nuisance material that falls narrowly within the very wide conductive range that gold items also do. There is still no guarantee that we have not also rejected a gold object falling into that range.
Until the technology exists to ID a buried item with CERTAINTY as gold, your program, or the CTX's abilities, or any other "system" or machine,or notch discrimation,is just increasing the PROBABILITY of rejecting a pulltab, not gold jewelry. None of them is a guarantee! Gold falls into far too wide a conductive range, where Tom in CA has pointed out, so do a lot of other unwanted items, can slaw, foil, etc.,etc. It's still a crapshoot, just with better odds.
As to having a "clue" to what you have Jack, if you have the abilty to ID a gold item with CERTAINTY, you'll be a millionaire! Even if you can say with CERTAINTY that it's not gold, that would be great too. I just didn't see it in the video.
Good Hunting!