Ralph Bryant
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n/t
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Well....
- Thread starter Dan-Pa.
- Start date
steve herschbach
New member
Hi Bill,
I appreciate your posts and the information you put out. I've read your posts on the ID Edge with great interest.
I've voiced some frustration with Fisher because, believe it or not, I really am fond of the brand. But I do not see how anyone observing the situation cannot be concerned over what is going on with Fisher. Models are dropping like flies, with nothing announced to replace them in many cases. New models do not get the support they deserve.
I honestly want to get my self worked up to get an ID Edge to try. Normally I'd jump right on it, but Fisher is making me more cautious. Now that the Edge has been introduced I'm seeing lots of posts from people hoping it is all the things that the Excel turned out not to be. So what does that say about the Excel?
It is not about trashing Fisher. I really am concerned about where they are heading. If they would have paid more attention to people like me and many of the other people who are now posting things they do not like to hear they would not be in the pickle they are in now.
Because we were once their most loyal of customers. I really feel we did not abandon Fisher. I feel they abandoned us.
I really do hope the ID Edge works out for Fisher. Competition is a good thing and it will do none of us any good if Fisher throws in the towel on consumer detectors.
Steve Herschbach
I appreciate your posts and the information you put out. I've read your posts on the ID Edge with great interest.
I've voiced some frustration with Fisher because, believe it or not, I really am fond of the brand. But I do not see how anyone observing the situation cannot be concerned over what is going on with Fisher. Models are dropping like flies, with nothing announced to replace them in many cases. New models do not get the support they deserve.
I honestly want to get my self worked up to get an ID Edge to try. Normally I'd jump right on it, but Fisher is making me more cautious. Now that the Edge has been introduced I'm seeing lots of posts from people hoping it is all the things that the Excel turned out not to be. So what does that say about the Excel?
It is not about trashing Fisher. I really am concerned about where they are heading. If they would have paid more attention to people like me and many of the other people who are now posting things they do not like to hear they would not be in the pickle they are in now.
Because we were once their most loyal of customers. I really feel we did not abandon Fisher. I feel they abandoned us.
I really do hope the ID Edge works out for Fisher. Competition is a good thing and it will do none of us any good if Fisher throws in the towel on consumer detectors.
Steve Herschbach
steve herschbach Wrote:
> snip... Models are dropping like flies,
> with nothing announced to replace them in many
> cases. New models do not get the support they
> deserve.
I do know that the reason for the demise of the CZ's is based primarily on parts availability. Many of the custom designed parts are either not available, beyond the needed quantity to cover necessary warranty needs, or are priced so high, or require ridiculous quantities, from the outside suppliers that it makes it cost prohibitive to continue trying to build them, or buy them. That was shared with me today in a conversation with the Fisher CEO. I, too, have had a long term relationship with Fisher Research Laboratory.
The new model support is compromised between the hobby division, and the other two Fisher branches, Utility Locating, and Security Solutions. When you are in business to make a profit, it becomes obvious where the resources will be utilized. Where the money is, and that's not the hobby division. We, in the hobby, make up a small part of the big picture in the "metal detection business". The engineering talent is being stretched and pulled between the three divisions. Unlike many of the other manufacturers whose only business is hobby related, Fisher has to please those with the purse strings by delicately balancing their resources.
I'm not trying to make excuses for, nor do I necessarily agree with these reasons, but that's the facts. This is, after all, a specialized hobby that doesn't see the participation that other hobbies, such as Golf, see. Therefore, the money just isn't there. Look at the business of selling metal detectors. There aren't many making a full-time living doing this. I blame the manufacturers for that. When anybody that is willing to buy three machines can be a dealer, there isn't much room for profits. You may, or may not, agree with me, but that is how I feel about it. I speak from experience being in the hobby for over 33 years, and having sold metal detectors for most of those 33 years.
> I honestly want to get my self worked up to get an
> ID Edge to try. Normally I'd jump right on it, but
> Fisher is making me more cautious. Now that the
> Edge has been introduced I'm seeing lots of posts
> from people hoping it is all the things that the
> Excel turned out not to be. So what does that say
> about the Excel?
I think the Id-Excel is an Excel-lent detector and solved many of the CZ problems. It allows for a faster hunt speed, with much better iron trash separation, and more solid target lock with a light weight. The biggest drawback, for me, was the lack of depth performance in my highly mineralized soil. The problem with the Minelab machines, besides weight, was their terrible target separation at anything near a reasonable hunt speed. The iron masking was bad as was their poor target response at depth. They lacked that crisp response that the CZ's give, as well as the fast target signal recovery speed.
The new Id-Edge is slated to provide all of the excellent features of the Id-Excel, with the depth capabilities of the CZ's. No, Fisher didn't provide infinite notch adjustments, threshold signal adjustments, etc. found in the CoinStrike. They intended to use the KISS formula to put fun back into the hobby, as opposed to continuously make it more, and more, complex and difficult to adjust to the right setting. If you want those features, get the much harder to learn CoinStrike. If you want raw performance, perhaps the new Fisher will have the "Edge". Only time will tell.
I think the new Minelab X-Terra sounds like a great step forward for Minelab in the general metal detecting hobby. Unless something comes up that is very negative, I will probably try one as well. They are all just tools, and it's hard to find a really bad unit from any of the major manufacturers today. Every one of them will have something better than another, and something worse. It comes down to "Horses for Courses".
> It is not about trashing Fisher. I really am
> concerned about where they are heading. If they
> would have paid more attention to people like me
> and many of the other people who are now posting
> things they do not like to hear they would not be
> in the pickle they are in now.
>
> Because we were once their most loyal of
> customers. I really feel we did not abandon
> Fisher. I feel they abandoned us.
>
> I really do hope the ID Edge works out for Fisher.
> Competition is a good thing and it will do none of
> us any good if Fisher throws in the towel on
> consumer detectors.
>
> Steve Herschbach
I agree about Fisher letting us down with regard to accessory coils for the CoinStrike, Id-Excel and, probably, the Id-Edge. I was told today that part of the reason is that, although many on the internet (we are a small minority of all the detector users) voice the need, and want, for smaller, and larger, coils, the actual sales numbers show that they aren't really bought in the quantities to make it cost effective to produce them. I was also told that, although we seem to ask for small coils, the larger coils sold better for both the CZ, and 12xx series detectors.
It was admitted that Fisher let us down with the Id-Excel accessory coils, as well as the CoinStrike 5" coil. The odds are there never will be a small C$ coil, or any Id-Edge accessory coils. I was assured that a 10.5" coil will be released in December for the Id-Edge. As far as a small coil goes, I was told not to relay any promise of one forthcoming any time in the foreseeable future. That doesn't mean we will never see one, probably not as quickly as we would like though. I did relate the idea that by offering a multiple coil package, that might ease the lack of accessory coil sales, and help promote the line overall. I was thanked for my insight, and suggestions, and that they would be taken under advisement. Not sure that means anything will change, but at least the seed has been planted. I, for one, sure hope they will "see it our way".
My new Id-Edge will be delivered tomorrow. I hope to get some time to get out with it this week, if the weather will hold up.
I might add that after being in this great hobby for as long as I have, I sure hate to see "detector wars". I guess it's natural to covet, and defend something we have purchased with our hard earned money. After all, we sure wouldn't want to admit that we made the wrong decision, would we? Personally, I think all of the various detectors are great. It is amazing to see all of the advances, and various models available today compared to when I got started in this hobby. I think you just about can't go wrong with any of them today. They all will go beep, and find good targets. As soon as this becomes work, it no longer becomes fun.
Ok, enough with the soapbox. I hope everyone finds whatever it is you're looking for.
OldeTymer
> snip... Models are dropping like flies,
> with nothing announced to replace them in many
> cases. New models do not get the support they
> deserve.
I do know that the reason for the demise of the CZ's is based primarily on parts availability. Many of the custom designed parts are either not available, beyond the needed quantity to cover necessary warranty needs, or are priced so high, or require ridiculous quantities, from the outside suppliers that it makes it cost prohibitive to continue trying to build them, or buy them. That was shared with me today in a conversation with the Fisher CEO. I, too, have had a long term relationship with Fisher Research Laboratory.
The new model support is compromised between the hobby division, and the other two Fisher branches, Utility Locating, and Security Solutions. When you are in business to make a profit, it becomes obvious where the resources will be utilized. Where the money is, and that's not the hobby division. We, in the hobby, make up a small part of the big picture in the "metal detection business". The engineering talent is being stretched and pulled between the three divisions. Unlike many of the other manufacturers whose only business is hobby related, Fisher has to please those with the purse strings by delicately balancing their resources.
I'm not trying to make excuses for, nor do I necessarily agree with these reasons, but that's the facts. This is, after all, a specialized hobby that doesn't see the participation that other hobbies, such as Golf, see. Therefore, the money just isn't there. Look at the business of selling metal detectors. There aren't many making a full-time living doing this. I blame the manufacturers for that. When anybody that is willing to buy three machines can be a dealer, there isn't much room for profits. You may, or may not, agree with me, but that is how I feel about it. I speak from experience being in the hobby for over 33 years, and having sold metal detectors for most of those 33 years.
> I honestly want to get my self worked up to get an
> ID Edge to try. Normally I'd jump right on it, but
> Fisher is making me more cautious. Now that the
> Edge has been introduced I'm seeing lots of posts
> from people hoping it is all the things that the
> Excel turned out not to be. So what does that say
> about the Excel?
I think the Id-Excel is an Excel-lent detector and solved many of the CZ problems. It allows for a faster hunt speed, with much better iron trash separation, and more solid target lock with a light weight. The biggest drawback, for me, was the lack of depth performance in my highly mineralized soil. The problem with the Minelab machines, besides weight, was their terrible target separation at anything near a reasonable hunt speed. The iron masking was bad as was their poor target response at depth. They lacked that crisp response that the CZ's give, as well as the fast target signal recovery speed.
The new Id-Edge is slated to provide all of the excellent features of the Id-Excel, with the depth capabilities of the CZ's. No, Fisher didn't provide infinite notch adjustments, threshold signal adjustments, etc. found in the CoinStrike. They intended to use the KISS formula to put fun back into the hobby, as opposed to continuously make it more, and more, complex and difficult to adjust to the right setting. If you want those features, get the much harder to learn CoinStrike. If you want raw performance, perhaps the new Fisher will have the "Edge". Only time will tell.
I think the new Minelab X-Terra sounds like a great step forward for Minelab in the general metal detecting hobby. Unless something comes up that is very negative, I will probably try one as well. They are all just tools, and it's hard to find a really bad unit from any of the major manufacturers today. Every one of them will have something better than another, and something worse. It comes down to "Horses for Courses".
> It is not about trashing Fisher. I really am
> concerned about where they are heading. If they
> would have paid more attention to people like me
> and many of the other people who are now posting
> things they do not like to hear they would not be
> in the pickle they are in now.
>
> Because we were once their most loyal of
> customers. I really feel we did not abandon
> Fisher. I feel they abandoned us.
>
> I really do hope the ID Edge works out for Fisher.
> Competition is a good thing and it will do none of
> us any good if Fisher throws in the towel on
> consumer detectors.
>
> Steve Herschbach
I agree about Fisher letting us down with regard to accessory coils for the CoinStrike, Id-Excel and, probably, the Id-Edge. I was told today that part of the reason is that, although many on the internet (we are a small minority of all the detector users) voice the need, and want, for smaller, and larger, coils, the actual sales numbers show that they aren't really bought in the quantities to make it cost effective to produce them. I was also told that, although we seem to ask for small coils, the larger coils sold better for both the CZ, and 12xx series detectors.
It was admitted that Fisher let us down with the Id-Excel accessory coils, as well as the CoinStrike 5" coil. The odds are there never will be a small C$ coil, or any Id-Edge accessory coils. I was assured that a 10.5" coil will be released in December for the Id-Edge. As far as a small coil goes, I was told not to relay any promise of one forthcoming any time in the foreseeable future. That doesn't mean we will never see one, probably not as quickly as we would like though. I did relate the idea that by offering a multiple coil package, that might ease the lack of accessory coil sales, and help promote the line overall. I was thanked for my insight, and suggestions, and that they would be taken under advisement. Not sure that means anything will change, but at least the seed has been planted. I, for one, sure hope they will "see it our way".
My new Id-Edge will be delivered tomorrow. I hope to get some time to get out with it this week, if the weather will hold up.
I might add that after being in this great hobby for as long as I have, I sure hate to see "detector wars". I guess it's natural to covet, and defend something we have purchased with our hard earned money. After all, we sure wouldn't want to admit that we made the wrong decision, would we? Personally, I think all of the various detectors are great. It is amazing to see all of the advances, and various models available today compared to when I got started in this hobby. I think you just about can't go wrong with any of them today. They all will go beep, and find good targets. As soon as this becomes work, it no longer becomes fun.
Ok, enough with the soapbox. I hope everyone finds whatever it is you're looking for.
OldeTymer
BuckeyeBrad
New member
n/t
steve herschbach
New member
Hi OldeTymer,
Great post. I mostly agree with you, especially about the detector wars.
But a couple points. I do not think independent notching is hard. I find the Ace 250 system easier to understand then what Fisher is doing on the ID Edge - a combination of linear discrimination and preset notches. What's easier about that?
Minelab also has a parent company, Halcro. Rumor is the real money is in mine detectors. But they seem more willing to use their strength in other areas to make there hobby division strong. Garrett also appears to be able to see the value in the hobby division and we all know they do better with security. So being part of a larger company does not automatically mean the hobby division has to lose out.
I'll be very anxious to hear your thoughts on the ID Edge!
Steve Herschbach
Great post. I mostly agree with you, especially about the detector wars.
But a couple points. I do not think independent notching is hard. I find the Ace 250 system easier to understand then what Fisher is doing on the ID Edge - a combination of linear discrimination and preset notches. What's easier about that?
Minelab also has a parent company, Halcro. Rumor is the real money is in mine detectors. But they seem more willing to use their strength in other areas to make there hobby division strong. Garrett also appears to be able to see the value in the hobby division and we all know they do better with security. So being part of a larger company does not automatically mean the hobby division has to lose out.
I'll be very anxious to hear your thoughts on the ID Edge!
Steve Herschbach
I don't know if independent notching is hard or easy. I'm not a real knowledgeable electronics guy. When I mentioned that today in my conversation with Fisher, it was admitted that independent notching wasn't even thought about for the Id-Edge. There was an indication that it would be brought up down the road for future consideration in future releases. Maybe, maybe not, who knows?
I understand what you are saying about the various divisions, and the impact they have on each other. I tend to feel like Fisher has kind of pushed the hobby division toward the back burner. I don't know that for a fact, and could be totally wrong. It's just my feeling with nothing solid to back that statement up. Being only interested in the hobby aspects myself, I'm sorry if that's the case. I was hoping that by now we would have a video monitor showing us not only the target in real time, but the date, if it was a coin. Some wouldn't like that due to the anticipation of the find, but I sure would.
I will probably do some basic table testing tomorrow, and will post my thoughts on the CoinStrike/Excel forum. I sure hope it turns out well. I might be able to get outside with it Wednesday or Friday. This is my busy season for my business, and I don't get a lot of time off. I knew I should have retired.
I'd like to read more about the X-Terra too as well as the new Whites M6. Sounds like a great Spring hunting season coming up for us all.
OldeTymer
I understand what you are saying about the various divisions, and the impact they have on each other. I tend to feel like Fisher has kind of pushed the hobby division toward the back burner. I don't know that for a fact, and could be totally wrong. It's just my feeling with nothing solid to back that statement up. Being only interested in the hobby aspects myself, I'm sorry if that's the case. I was hoping that by now we would have a video monitor showing us not only the target in real time, but the date, if it was a coin. Some wouldn't like that due to the anticipation of the find, but I sure would.
I will probably do some basic table testing tomorrow, and will post my thoughts on the CoinStrike/Excel forum. I sure hope it turns out well. I might be able to get outside with it Wednesday or Friday. This is my busy season for my business, and I don't get a lot of time off. I knew I should have retired.
I'd like to read more about the X-Terra too as well as the new Whites M6. Sounds like a great Spring hunting season coming up for us all.
OldeTymer
steve herschbach
New member
Hi OldeTymer,
Well, I am off to Cabo and will be giving the X-Terra a good workout on the beach. So look for a report here next week. I may be off the net until then so will look for your ID Edge report.
And hopefully when I get home next week a new Matrix M6 will be waiting for me. No notching at all on it, just an old-fashioned knob! Looks like the intent with it is purely a tone id unit, with seven tones. I think it will basically be a toned down MXT intened for the coin/jewelry hunter and so smoother than the MXT.
Lots of new units to play with for Christmas. Have fun with the Edge!
Signing off - Steve Herschbach
My first detector - White's Coinmaster 4. Good old TR with no discriminate. I dug a lot of great stuff with that detector! Here I am on my first nugget hunt in 1973 with the CM4 and the "Nugget Probe". No, I did not find any gold, and that little gully was full of it. I panned about 1/2 oz in that gully but the detectors back then were nearly useless on any nugget smaller than a coin.
<img src="http://www.akmining.com/mine/jp730001.jpg">
Well, I am off to Cabo and will be giving the X-Terra a good workout on the beach. So look for a report here next week. I may be off the net until then so will look for your ID Edge report.
And hopefully when I get home next week a new Matrix M6 will be waiting for me. No notching at all on it, just an old-fashioned knob! Looks like the intent with it is purely a tone id unit, with seven tones. I think it will basically be a toned down MXT intened for the coin/jewelry hunter and so smoother than the MXT.
Lots of new units to play with for Christmas. Have fun with the Edge!
Signing off - Steve Herschbach
My first detector - White's Coinmaster 4. Good old TR with no discriminate. I dug a lot of great stuff with that detector! Here I am on my first nugget hunt in 1973 with the CM4 and the "Nugget Probe". No, I did not find any gold, and that little gully was full of it. I panned about 1/2 oz in that gully but the detectors back then were nearly useless on any nugget smaller than a coin.
<img src="http://www.akmining.com/mine/jp730001.jpg">
Jackpine Savage
Active member
on any of these new "mid-priced" detectors regardless of the brand. They got us all thinking that $699.00 or therabouts is mid priced but to my way of thinking that price range better offer top end performance just minus a few of the bells and whistles.
Tom
Tom
BuckeyeBrad
New member
I'm not too sure that'll be the case. I sorta wonder if some of what is behind all the "restructuring" of some of the product lines isn't just greasing the skids to have price points more like Minelab, read: $799 WILL be actually mid price because they'll all have $1200+ price tags on new top of the line detectors. Stay tuned, details at 11.
Jackpine Savage
Active member
That may be true at least with a few manufacturers. I have seen posts claiming one particular brand is over priced when in IMO their price for performance is more than competitive. My days of spending over $700.00 on a new detector are over.. Period! Whether one can afford it or not you have to reach a personal limit on any hobby. Besides its a lot more fun to have a small arsenal that you can pick from to fit the bill for that days particular detecting needs.
Tom
Tom
Jackpine Savage
Active member
price does not always equal performance either as a couple of the major manufactuers have their lemons.
Tom
Tom
A
Anonymous
Guest
The secret to running a CZ is to run it on '0' discrimination. That way the iron does not come through as a fleeting false positive in a higher category, and iron just on the outside edge of the loop does not give false good signals also.