What are you missing on the surface!

[hairymonsterman]

F19, a 3" nail and a dime.
Set the distance between nail and dime at half the width of your coil.
https://youtu.be/FuAgx2Dyj2w

 

[El]

Interesting. What coil were you using?

 

[dfmike]

Looks like a NEL Hunter to me. Do you have the stock 5 X 10 or 5" round coil to try ? I'd like to see the test done with those just for kicks. If you carefully look at the ID when you swing over both, can you get a high ID from time to time ? There's so many things we just can't get because of masking.

I remember seeing another video on youtube where somebody had hidden clad coins with trash and the 5" round coil was the only one that could "see" or separate all targets. I can't find the link unfortunately.

 

[hairymonsterman]

It's the Nel Hunter coil, 12.5"x8.5"
Because its catching the nail with the edge of the coil just as the centre of the coil is on the dime, the machine can't cope.
It's a decent enough machine but it's lacking in many ways compared to faster, better separation detectors.

 

[D&P-OR]

Oh?? What are the "many ways" the F-19 is lacking in?---And what "faster, better separation detectors" are you referring to?

It's the Nel Hunter coil, 12.5"x8.5"
Because its catching the nail with the edge of the coil just as the centre of the coil is on the dime, the machine can't cope.
It's a decent enough machine but it's lacking in many ways compared to faster, better separation detectors.

 

[hairymonsterman]

I'll give you an example of the Rutus Alter 71, mainly because i'm running both machines at the moment and they fall in the same price bracket here in the UK, with the F19 around £25 more expensive. There is a variation in coil size, F19 with 12.5"x8.5" and the Rutus with 11" round, so maybe a slight advantage to the F19 here.
Im running the F19 with v-break at 65, midway between the conductivity of the targets so it has to jump between tones.
The Rutus initially in 2 tone breaking at a 3" nail, then in 120 tones.
The F19 does very well with an average sweep, then drops to maybe 2 or 3 targets when sweep is increased.
The Rutus in 120 tones, no matter how fast you sweep doesn't miss a target.
I'm not beating on the F19 or trying to score points, it's no slouch, and it's not likely you'd need to swing either at that speed, it's only a demo, but the speed of the Rutus is exceptional, and being able to adjust the reactivity to suit conditions is a real benefit.
https://youtu.be/ZnAzn5dbTRc

Oh?? What are the "many ways" the F-19 is lacking in?---And what "faster, better separation detectors" are you referring to?

It's the Nel Hunter coil, 12.5"x8.5"
Because its catching the nail with the edge of the coil just as the centre of the coil is on the dime, the machine can't cope.
It's a decent enough machine but it's lacking in many ways compared to faster, better separation detectors.

 

[dfmike]

I've searched for some youtube vids and I found one that seems to show a very similar test as yours where the F19 does great, in fact it does more than great. I'm not sure what is going on with your F19, your coil or your settings but his results are quite different from yours. Take a look at this from Hunter GT. First at 11:25, single nail right next to a dime with the stock 5 x 10 then at 12:15, 2 nails touching the coin on either side and then finally at 13:05, one nail test but this time with the 5 inch round coil.

Part 1 shows a cool test as well if you want to look:

https://youtu.be/J2LkYQ87tUA

 

[hairymonsterman]

Thanks mike, yes my F19 will react similar to the hunters in that senario, your only asking it to jump 2 ID numbers say for example ID 20-80-20, but using the exact same settings, if i try the mixed conductor test it starts to get it tight as you speed up the sweep.

 

[TheHunterGT]

#1....the NEL Hunter is easily their worst coil. Not sure I have ever seen a positive remark about one. From what I read and hear - the SharpShooter and Thunder are both FAR superior coils.

#2....F19 is set to 65 vbreak...while the Rutus is set to break at nails in disc (no vbreak). Meaning the multi-conductor test is all below the disc point on the Rutus...while half the conductors are under/above the breakpoint on the F19.

Seems like a test with settings made to trumpet the Rutus...and set the F19 up for failure.

F19 passes this test TOUCHING the nail when set properly....and will easily pass the multi-conductor test with the vbreak UNDER all targets like the Rutus is setup.

Slow the video down to .5 speed in the Youtube settings and you will hear the Rutus missing 2-3 targets on some sweeps. Set the break under the targets on the F19 and I can almost guarantee 7 solid hits at the same speed.

 

[hairymonsterman]

The test is actually set up much harder for the Rutus, to ask a machine to audably report several different tones, while asking the F19 to report only 2 tones.

Here's the test with the settings you suggest, V-break set to just above the nails at 35.
It easily passes the nail-coin-nail test, and a little better on the multi conductor test, but not near the Rutus speed even in 120 tones, set the Rutus like the F19 and it blows it away.
If folks have any other setting suggestions i'll give them a try as i'd like to get as much out of the F19 as possible.
https://youtu.be/wsFedwqU0Ew

#1....the NEL Hunter is easily their worst coil. Not sure I have ever seen a positive remark about one. From what I read and hear - the SharpShooter and Thunder are both FAR superior coils.

#2....F19 is set to 65 vbreak...while the Rutus is set to break at nails in disc (no vbreak). Meaning the multi-conductor test is all below the disc point on the Rutus...while half the conductors are under/above the breakpoint on the F19.

Seems like a test with settings made to trumpet the Rutus...and set the F19 up for failure.

F19 passes this test TOUCHING the nail when set properly....and will easily pass the multi-conductor test with the vbreak UNDER all targets like the Rutus is setup.

Slow the video down to .5 speed in the Youtube settings and you will hear the Rutus missing 2-3 targets on some sweeps. Set the break under the targets on the F19 and I can almost guarantee 7 solid hits at the same speed.

 

[hairymonsterman]

Here's another, nail-coin-nail overload!
Again the F19 does super well seeing the dime inbetween 8 nails, the Rutus just keeps on going at 12 nails, i'd have tried more but had no more nail handy.
Both machines were set to break tone on the nails and no more.

https://youtu.be/UBze7ZueJnQ

Oh?? What are the "many ways" the F-19 is lacking in?---And what "faster, better separation detectors" are you referring to?

 

[TheHunterGT]

Patriot (F70)...T2...F75...XP Deus...all of them have 99 tones and all of them can unmask and separate better in certain scenarios compared to single/double/triple tone modes.

As far as getting more out of the F19 with that NEL Hunter on it....I doubt it will happen.

I think with the stock 5x10 or even the 11DD off a G2+....or even the NEL Sharpshooter......it does much better.

Rutus is using a stock coil wired perfectly for the unit. The F19 is using a mediocre reviewed coil that is a "catch all" from an aftermarket company.

Apples to oranges.

I will say I love tests like this...and enjoy the fact you are making them up. Kudos on that. Rutus is an impressive machine. I just think the F19 performs better than what that coil shows.

 

[dfmike]

I'm definitely more of a newbie compared to you guys when it comes to understanding separation, unmasking, etc. but what I seem to get from the conversation is that if I hunt in a ferrous junkyard for silver coins for example I should lower the v-break instead of setting it high to better unmask the coins ? I usually set my v-break at 60 or more in trashy environments where the recent junk is higher than the underlying old coins. Those old coins never hit at below 70 on my F19 anyway and at that low number it's old copper coins. The silver coins have a much higher numerical value. Am I missing potential silver coins by setting my v-break that high in a typical trashy park or schoolyard ? Thanks.

 

[hairymonsterman]

The Rutus even with the large 11" coil is a very good performer, it also runs a nice 8" cc coil, and how they have managed to have these coils perform soo well over the span of frequencies from 4.4khz to 18.4khz is beyond me.
I like testing my machines to find there strengths /weakness so as i can find the right job for them.

Patriot (F70)...T2...F75...XP Deus...all of them have 99 tones and all of them can unmask and separate better in certain scenarios compared to single/double/triple tone modes.

As far as getting more out of the F19 with that NEL Hunter on it....I doubt it will happen.

I think with the stock 5x10 or even the 11DD off a G2+....or even the NEL Sharpshooter......it does much better.

Rutus is using a stock coil wired perfectly for the unit. The F19 is using a mediocre reviewed coil that is a "catch all" from an aftermarket company.

Apples to oranges.

I will say I love tests like this...and enjoy the fact you are making them up. Kudos on that. Rutus is an impressive machine. I just think the F19 performs better than what that coil shows.

 

[hairymonsterman]

Personally, some of the sites i hunt have had 1000+ years of human habitation, here i'd be running v-break 30-32, no disc, volume 20. If i was to run with low tone audio off, or very low, over the 0-40 i'd be missing targets

I'm definitely more of a newbie compared to you guys when it comes to understanding separation, unmasking, etc. but what I seem to get from the conversation is that if I hunt in a ferrous junkyard for silver coins for example I should lower the v-break instead of setting it high to better unmask the coins ? I usually set my v-break at 60 or more in trashy environments where the recent junk is higher than the underlying old coins. Those old coins never hit at below 70 on my F19 anyway and at that low number it's old copper coins. The silver coins have a much higher numerical value. Am I missing potential silver coins by setting my v-break that high in a typical trashy park or schoolyard ? Thanks.

 

[TheHunterGT]

I'm definitely more of a newbie compared to you guys when it comes to understanding separation, unmasking, etc. but what I seem to get from the conversation is that if I hunt in a ferrous junkyard for silver coins for example I should lower the v-break instead of setting it high to better unmask the coins ? I usually set my v-break at 60 or more in trashy environments where the recent junk is higher than the underlying old coins. Those old coins never hit at below 70 on my F19 anyway and at that low number it's old copper coins. The silver coins have a much higher numerical value. Am I missing potential silver coins by setting my v-break that high in a typical trashy park or schoolyard ? Thanks.

A detector will almost always unmask/separate better with zero disc - zero notch - zero vbreak. It's basically how much your brain can handle hearing all the trash. With the F19 being a 2 tone only (low and VCO)...a user is sort of forced to rely on the vbreak or disc. And the 0-99 ID of course.

To answer your question, I don't think you are losing much performance on the F19 by running it like that if you are JUST searching for silver/copper. He was running a multi-conductor test with that high vbreak which I would not do if actually looking for the full range of coins on the conductivity scale.

I usually only hunt silver/copper as well...so there is really no reason to listen to the trash as the vbreak works very well in that scenario. I personally cannot stand hearing trash and iron so I usually run the F19 with volume 10...zero disc...vbreak to 55...notch from 60-79. If not hunting nickels I raise it all the way to 80. If I think there is a chance for a IHP...I lower it to 65.

My wife can run her F19 at volume 10 (no iron) and zero disc/vbreak/notch. It's bonkers to me....but she digs everything usually unless we are doing a coin challenge for a video or whatever. Off camera days she digs a crap load of trash.

Some detectors have a sweet spot you can learn where at X disc it will unmask better (F75 and F70 at 6 I think it is). Or at sensitivity X to X you have a boost type range. (T2 Classic 50-59 for example). But thats another topic I guess...

 

[amberjack]

there is no right or wrong way to detect or no best detector there are different detecting environments and differing ways of hunting them experiment on your sites with your detectors and have fun learning as we all do
if someone says your doing it wrong they are wrong no one has my brain and that is at the end of the day what we use to detect with, metal detectors are tools and we all use them differently that's why there isn't one detector with one setting

AJ

 

[Dave J.]

there is no right or wrong way to detect or no best detector there are different detecting environments and differing ways of hunting them experiment on your sites with your detectors and have fun learning as we all do
if someone says your doing it wrong they are wrong no one has my brain and that is at the end of the day what we use to detect with, metal detectors are tools and we all use them differently that's why there isn't one detector with one setting

AJ

Well spake, ajack.

One of the most common anecdotes we see on the forums goes like this: "There's this site I've pounded to death and it hardly produces anything any more. Well, I got this other detector, make and model __________ [fill in the blanks with whatever you like] and the first time out I found stuff I've walked right over a hundred times! Wow, what a detector!"

Nope. It doesn't matter what detector. Go out there with a BH Junior and it'll happen. You were stuck in a rut and got everything that can be gotten that particular way. Now you're doing something different and you're finding the stuff that couldn't be found the way you had been doing it.

And it doesn't even require a new detector. Just try using the one you've got differently. Not just machine settings, but the way you swing the searchcoil, where on the site you concentrate your effort, and how you decide to dig or not dig.

 

[dfmike]

I usually only hunt silver/copper as well...so there is really no reason to listen to the trash as the vbreak works very well in that scenario. I personally cannot stand hearing trash and iron so I usually run the F19 with volume 10...zero disc...vbreak to 55...notch from 60-79. If not hunting nickels I raise it all the way to 80. If I think there is a chance for a IHP...I lower it to 65.

My wife can run her F19 at volume 10 (no iron) and zero disc/vbreak/notch. It's bonkers to me....but she digs everything usually unless we are doing a coin challenge for a video or whatever. Off camera days she digs a crap load of trash.

Thanks for the response. That's the way I usually hunt myself, v-break moderately high but no notch and volume at 10 to mute ferrous target noise. I hunt like your wife when I'm on the beach and I dig everything non ferrous.

 

[amberjack]

there is no right or wrong way to detect or no best detector there are different detecting environments and differing ways of hunting them experiment on your sites with your detectors and have fun learning as we all do
if someone says your doing it wrong they are wrong no one has my brain and that is at the end of the day what we use to detect with, metal detectors are tools and we all use them differently that's why there isn't one detector with one setting

AJ

Well spake, ajack.

One of the most common anecdotes we see on the forums goes like this: "There's this site I've pounded to death and it hardly produces anything any more. Well, I got this other detector, make and model __________ [fill in the blanks with whatever you like] and the first time out I found stuff I've walked right over a hundred times! Wow, what a detector!"

Nope. It doesn't matter what detector. Go out there with a BH Junior and it'll happen. You were stuck in a rut and got everything that can be gotten that particular way. Now you're doing something different and you're finding the stuff that couldn't be found the way you had been doing it.

And it doesn't even require a new detector. Just try using the one you've got differently. Not just machine settings, but the way you swing the searchcoil, where on the site you concentrate your effort, and how you decide to dig or not dig.

it is interesting Dave the psychology of detecting..

I bet if I turned on the gps and followed my detect pattern on the same site I would follow the same path within 80% even when trying not too its how we are and humans don't like braking patterns even if they are destructive , we don't have to look far to see that..

even my gait affects my finds and that would be near impossible to change..

so yes its a challenge to change those things that are DNA in us as humans..

not getting to over technical on that side of it I guess

but using a setting I would never use is a great place to start like if I am a flat out hunter turn the gain down to 50% and just see what happens some maybe surprised at what just doing that can result in

it is interesting and thanks for your thoughts and everyone else's also I learn from everyone..

AJ