As a standard stock coil. For example Whites.....(just as an example but they are all doing it.)......... is fond of giving you a 10" coil on most of their detectors as a stock coil. This is stunned!!! Have they ever tested this coil in your average metal/trash infested park? (where most people will start their hunting pursuits)??? If common sense was used... the standard stock coil should be no larger than 7" - 8" diameter... that is a practical choice. If you want a specialized coil by all means get the 10". I think Monte would agree with me on this one.Or how about this..... sell the detector and rods with the choice of standard coil by the customer.......no coil is included in the detector purchase. Just the body!! As when you have an SLR camera......you already have the lenses when a new camera comes out you just buy the body.Or you choose which lenses you need in adition to the body, no reason why detectors should be any different. How about that for defining you as being a different detector company.................but they don't have the vision or guts to do it.
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Why do metal detector companies equip their detectors with the wrong coil??
- Thread starter Ivan
- Start date
WV62
Well-known member
I was told it was because of the new DD coils needed to be a little larger to match the depth of the older concentric coils. If you notice most of the detector companies are following the same line, back in my Whites days (1970's and 80's) just about all there detectors came with a coil close to the 8" you are talking about, but they were all concentric.
I run Fishers along with Whites and they did the same thing, stock was 8" and now they come with stock 11"DD coils.
So to keep up with the depth issue and offer up new model detectors they choose to go with a larger coil.
Lets say you got a new Whites with a stock 8"DD coil and you could only get 5" or 6" of depth, so I think you would be equally un-happy.
Ron in WV
I run Fishers along with Whites and they did the same thing, stock was 8" and now they come with stock 11"DD coils.
So to keep up with the depth issue and offer up new model detectors they choose to go with a larger coil.
Lets say you got a new Whites with a stock 8"DD coil and you could only get 5" or 6" of depth, so I think you would be equally un-happy.
Ron in WV
Ivan said:
If this is your starting premise, then yes, you'd be correct. Or per your reference to "Monte", then I would add that; If starting in iron/nail infested ghost towns is "where most people will start their hunting pursuits", then yes, you'd be correct.
But since when is that the starting premise ? A lot of persons will start perhaps at the beach. Or sand boxes. Or some sort of field (especially British hunters, because don't forget, a lot of these machines are now sold in Europe and Britain).
And in locations like those, the manufacturer would be scolded for "having chosen the wrong coil for stock coil" if they'd put a 7" or 8" coil on there.
Besides, let's be perfectly honest Ivan: The manufacturer's are constantly being driven (and scolded by the consumer market) for "depth depth depth", right ? I agree with you that target separation is an important factor. But that's NOT the question on most md'rs minds. An evidence of this is easy: Whenever a new machine or coil or whatever is being debated on a forum thread, what's the IMMEDIATE topic that's bandied about on everyone's minds? "How deep does can it go ?"
So actually then, the "specialty" coil, in most people's minds, is the one that gets LESS depth . Like for ghost townsy pursuits, junky parks, etc....
still looking 52
Well-known member
You can't be all things to everybody or you'll go out of business, these guys have done a lot research and have checked all aveunes before they decided on what stock coil would be the best all around coil for their machine. Also these stock coils are probably the best match because they have been matched to give you the best information on what your passing over. For instance most of the small coils will give you a depth reading a lot deeper than the target actually is.
In the '70s & 80s, those 7 or 8" stock coils were the best "point of diminishing returns". As you got to larger coils, you might get a tad more depth on coins, but it came at the cost of less sensitivity to smaller targets. But today's advances in precision electronics, windings, etc.... have enabled larger coils to remain sensitive to small targets. Heck, I know a guy who beach hunts with a 15" WOT coil, that finds even dainty little jewelry (granted, he has to listen more carefully, haha). So as time went on, the 10 or 11" has now become stock, because they have the "best of both worlds" in their small vs large targets.
But they may not be the "best of target separation world". However, the mantra of md'rs has been depth-depth-depth. So the makers are merely responding to the most-sought-after feature. If you have a specialty site like a super trashed turf zone, or an iron-riddled ghost town, then THOSE become the niche sites requiring alternative smaller coils.
Yes it's true that some beginner will perhaps buy something with a 10" stock coil, rush to the nearest blighted park turf or ghost town, and .... yes they'll be equipped wrong, as the OP laments. HOWEVER, if the stock coil had been a 7 or 8", and they had rushed to the beach or field or clean turf (where silver *starts* at 8" deep), then they'd have been griping that the manufacturer should be having a 10 or 11" as stock. So you can't please every single scenario.
But they may not be the "best of target separation world". However, the mantra of md'rs has been depth-depth-depth. So the makers are merely responding to the most-sought-after feature. If you have a specialty site like a super trashed turf zone, or an iron-riddled ghost town, then THOSE become the niche sites requiring alternative smaller coils.
Yes it's true that some beginner will perhaps buy something with a 10" stock coil, rush to the nearest blighted park turf or ghost town, and .... yes they'll be equipped wrong, as the OP laments. HOWEVER, if the stock coil had been a 7 or 8", and they had rushed to the beach or field or clean turf (where silver *starts* at 8" deep), then they'd have been griping that the manufacturer should be having a 10 or 11" as stock. So you can't please every single scenario.
Yeah, back in the late 60's early 70's, park coins were almost a half century shallower compared to today....
on average, no real need for bigger (more depth) coils back then at least in U.S. parks.
Another early year's plus, not that many if any pull tabs in the parks back then either.
Those good old park silver days!!
I can understand putting a coil on a beginner model when it is sold, but on the mid to high end detectors, why not simply sell the unit without a coil (priced appropriately) and let the user buy the coil
"a la carte" that best fits their own particular needs?
Seems like a winning idea to me.
"a la carte" that best fits their own particular needs?
Seems like a winning idea to me.
Seems like most people miss the point!!! Ironsight..... for example thinks that you get better depth with a 10" coil in your typical trashy park hunting conditions.........you won't!! The manufacturer is working against you by providing you with the wrong coil... a smaller 8" coil will run circles around the 10" in your typical park conditions. I used a 10" coil for a full year hunting alot of hours......and found way less compared to when I hunted the same parks, under the same conditions, with the 8" coil.....honestly my finds doubled in both quality and quantitiy. To provide a 10" coil as the general use coil is just not in line with common sense.
When I said the phrase "point of diminishing returns" (as far as coil-sizes), it wasn't so much a reflection on depth of coins then vs now. It was that for coin-sized objects, there always comes a point, on any machine, where:
a) yes, bigger coils go deeper, but
b) there comes a point in upwards sizes, that you no longer get coins deeper. You only increase swath and depth on bigger objects, and
c) you start to loose depth/sens. on smaller objects (even to the point of missing a half-dime, if the coil were big enough, etc...)
Hence back in those days, that "point" was at about the 8" mark. But today, with the advancements of better innards to the coil and machine, you can go up to 10 or 11" and loose no sens. on smaller targets, Hence today the stock coil sizes are up to that range now. Bigger coils start to get warbly in performance, poorer pinpointing, and more-prone to masking. But the market always screams depth-depth-depth, so that's what the makers put on as stock now.
a) yes, bigger coils go deeper, but
b) there comes a point in upwards sizes, that you no longer get coins deeper. You only increase swath and depth on bigger objects, and
c) you start to loose depth/sens. on smaller objects (even to the point of missing a half-dime, if the coil were big enough, etc...)
Hence back in those days, that "point" was at about the 8" mark. But today, with the advancements of better innards to the coil and machine, you can go up to 10 or 11" and loose no sens. on smaller targets, Hence today the stock coil sizes are up to that range now. Bigger coils start to get warbly in performance, poorer pinpointing, and more-prone to masking. But the market always screams depth-depth-depth, so that's what the makers put on as stock now.
And here's exactly what would happen: The user newbie, upon the news that he must choose a coil size, will ask: Which one goes deepest ? And he will be told an insane size like the 17" for the CTX, or the WOT for a sov, etc.... Needless to say, since he doesn't want to be "left out", he'll choose that "deepest coil". Then he promptly runs out to the nearest inner city blighted park, or ghost townsy iron riddled site, and get all confused. doh!
Ivan said:
Everything you're saying is true, if we start with the following premise: That the average Joe always heads to the nearest junky parks, in which the 8" coil is better. But since when is that a premise ? A lot of guys might go to field hunting (like in Britain where that's 95% of all hunting done), or beach detecting (where there is not cram-packed target either), etc....
Also: Not sure how junky the parks you are hunting are, but there's a lot of turf where it's not *that* cluttered, and the silver *starts* at 8" deep, meaning an 8" coil, (versus a 10 or 11" coil) would handicap you.
So your lament seems to hinge on the "normal" hunt site that the average-Joe-newbie rushes out to. And my opinion is that it's not necessarily parks like you describe.
looks like more truth in advertising and a more flexible bundle sold with detector would be the way to go. sell a learning package with an 8" or sell the same package with option to get a bigger coil with discount for buying the learning package. throw a book in with real world examples and links to forums other than company forums. basically companies need to teach a little to get people in the hobby and keep them to become repeat customers. how many people you know who bought a detector then after a few weeks they end up in the closet untill the capacitors dry out from old age?
mrwilburino
Member
It was probably just logical progression to go with a larger coil when most manufacturers began swapping their stock concentrics for the narrower footprint of the double D.
If I could only have one coil to use at my sites...... and it had to be concentric...... I would go with the 8". If it had to be a DD...... I think 10" would make a decent all-arounder. Although both those answers could change depending on the speed of the machine.
If I could only have one coil to use at my sites...... and it had to be concentric...... I would go with the 8". If it had to be a DD...... I think 10" would make a decent all-arounder. Although both those answers could change depending on the speed of the machine.
From my perspective, I don't think manufacturers are necessarily equipping detectors with the "wrong coil". Just with a general use version. There is no ONE right coil for ALL detecting applications.
I completely agree that giving the buyer a choice of coil that comes with the detector is a good idea. It allows the purchaser the ability to configure their machine to suit their preferred application from the start. Many manufacturers currently provide a multi-coil option package at a price less than purchasing the coils separately. Many provide a choice of the single coil also.
Wouldn't make much sense to use an 8" concentric for searching large beaches, sports fields, etc. Nor would it to use a 15" behemoth to search trash filled parks, ghost towns, etc. The coil has to fit the users application, you can't please everyone with one coil.
One thing I have noticed with inexperienced folks using 8" or smaller concentric coils. Many don't use proper coil swing discipline, in that, they don't properly overlap with successive swings. In that scenario, they would be much better with a 10"DD. They may not have good target separation, but at least they would have more complete coverage, and less chance of missing a target.
For people who are single application detectorist's (as in trashy areas ONLY), a small coil is all that would be needed. I believe most people are multiple application users, and will still need different size coils appropriate to the application.
I don't see it as a lack of "vision or guts", they simply can't please everyone with one coil. They just seem to try provide a reasonable general use coil as a starting point. IMO
I completely agree that giving the buyer a choice of coil that comes with the detector is a good idea. It allows the purchaser the ability to configure their machine to suit their preferred application from the start. Many manufacturers currently provide a multi-coil option package at a price less than purchasing the coils separately. Many provide a choice of the single coil also.
Wouldn't make much sense to use an 8" concentric for searching large beaches, sports fields, etc. Nor would it to use a 15" behemoth to search trash filled parks, ghost towns, etc. The coil has to fit the users application, you can't please everyone with one coil.
One thing I have noticed with inexperienced folks using 8" or smaller concentric coils. Many don't use proper coil swing discipline, in that, they don't properly overlap with successive swings. In that scenario, they would be much better with a 10"DD. They may not have good target separation, but at least they would have more complete coverage, and less chance of missing a target.
For people who are single application detectorist's (as in trashy areas ONLY), a small coil is all that would be needed. I believe most people are multiple application users, and will still need different size coils appropriate to the application.
I don't see it as a lack of "vision or guts", they simply can't please everyone with one coil. They just seem to try provide a reasonable general use coil as a starting point. IMO