Why no detecting on the peoples beach?

[Grunter]

Let me pose a more realistic response to no detecting on National seashore beaches. Anyone can and do take various sand shovels e-tools and other digging devices and dig to China,or dig a trench 100 yds long and 6' deep and no-one will say a word because the people are enjoying the beach. And it really doesn't matter if they recover their holes unlike most metal detectorists who will recover their holes so as not to create a safety hazard. The powers to be know that the shifting tides will fill in the holes. Now there are signs that say do not disturb plant life or animals. How many plants have you seen growing on or below the high tide line? How many birds don't fly away when you get too close to them? We as detectorists are engaging in a lawful,recreational hobby that does more public service than other beach users. We carry off various and sundry metal objects that can pose a real threat to human and animal life. I bet as a group we carry off tons of lead sinkers that can deteriorate in the surf producing a possible lead poisoning case with wildlife. And HEY!! if we accidentally find the sunken city of Atlantis we will surely share it with the Archae's who will never find it without us. I guarantee the powers to be that if allowed I would find more trash and remove it from the beach than any other group using the beach. Come on give us a break,We are American tax payers too and we have just as much right to pursue our happiness on the publics beach as anyone else. And if you want us to we will collect all of the seashells and pile them in a 50' high pile and the Archae's can study it and call it a 1000 yr. Olaf native American trash pile. Maybe we could just pile all of the metal junk in a pile and hundreds of years from now an Archae' can dig it up,reconstruct it and have our grand children 10 times over enjoy a mound of trash found by their great grandparents many times removed. Protect the dunes,the plant life,animal life and artifacts but also do your duty and protect the peoples right to pursue their hobby and happiness's. Maybe I'll leave my detector at home take my sand scoop and dig a 50'x50' grid and sift the sand. The likely hood of me finding anything would probably be close to the percentage of finding anything with my detector. Go,Go tide run away! Come back ,comeback tide lets play another day. And just think we have to pay the same user fees as the other beach go'ers.

 

[KinTN]

But I agree wholeheartedly. Well thought out and presented. Now lets take it to where it matters and get things set right.

 

[Grunter]

Just for an example I detected a 1000 yd stretch of public beach just off the National Seashore to the North. Same ocean,same sand,same tides. I'm relatively sure that the area I detected was occupied by the same native Americans that were on the National Seashore stretch of beach. I detected 1000 yds North and a 1000 yds back and found 1 quarter and 5 pennies two fishing leaders with hooks and sinker attached,four pieces of sharp aluminium shards.a steel washer. I didn't recover any artifacts,relics,pirate booty,only some trash left by beach goers that might be of historical interest to my great,great,great grand children. I will take this to whatever source where I might get some reasonable attention to our plight as tax paying detectorists that are being discriminated against,denied equal access under the law and just downright being abused by our caretakers.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... I will take this to whatever source where I might get some reasonable attention to our plight as tax paying detectorists that are being discriminated against,denied equal access under the law and just downright being abused by our caretakers.

grunter, I'm a little confused. You say you detected this place, and list off various items you found. Yet then you say you're going to bring attention to your/our plight, that you are being denied equal access, etc... I don't get it: If you just detected, no problems, and no one cared, then ....... what's the problem?

If you can detect somewhere, and no one says "boo" or cares less , then .......... so be it. Eh?

Now if by that you mean/think that something could be morphed to apply to you and your hobby if you were to go ask enough questions of enough bored archies, then that would seem counter-productive. Why would you go bring attention to that? If everyone is detecting a given area, and no one cares, then presto, the vague verbage (cultural heritage, holes, or whatever type verbage someone *could* find to apply) obviously doesn't.

 

[mudpuppy]

Yeah, dont over think this...just hunt it dude...it may not be worth a fight in the end, so why fight in the beginning?...Unless you prefer fighting beaurocrats to detecting? I know some folks do, just give it a going over and see..
Mud.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I've never heard of anyone running into a problem detecting on a public salt water beach.
There are probably exceptions like Jekyll Island in Georgia but much of that island is state owned.
I live in the South where it's too hot to detect during those hot summer days. One night, I'm detecting
behind a gated community in shallow salt water. A security guard marches out with a powerful flashlight
shinning in my face. "What are you doing?" he sneered. I replied that that question didn't deserve an answer.
Then I pointed to the homes and businesses that stood within the community. I told him that his
responsibility ended where their property line ended. I stated too, that I was standing in the Atlantic Ocean
and yelled, "get away from me." He replied that he would call and report me to the local sheriff's department.
I replied, "go right ahead. They'll tell you the same thing." That was 3 years ago and I still detect there....even
though I have to hike 2 miles along the beach to bypass the guard shack.
It helps when you've spent nearly 30 years as a big city cop to know not to be intimidated by a security guard.

El pulltabio, for starters, thanx for your service as cop. Not an easy job! stressful and our hats off to you.

As for your particular story, you say you've been going since then, for 3 yrs, and not had any problems. eh? But it strikes me that for a whole host of other skittish md'rs, that here's what might have happened instead:

The md'r tucks his tail between his legs and hight-tails it out of there (afterall, it's no fun being booted, now is it? ). And the average md'r would respectuflly assume that this must be the case, and it must be dis-allowed. Now I grant you , that was just a security gaurd, not a cop. But the same can be said of if it were an actual cop in the same exact situation. You know, like if a person in one of those houses calls the cops because she sees "suspicious activity" or "some strange person" on the beach. Now the cop, when he gets there to answer this call, is duty-bound to please miss busy-body. And maybe he can find something he says you're not supposed to do. Ie.: beach closes at sunset, or taking and harvesting clauses, or harming wildlife, or cultural heritage, etc...

So the md'r leaves, and either:

a) posts it ("such & such beach is off-limits"), for all his other hobbyists to know and be aware of. Before long, it's just taken as gospel fact, when such things get linked and linked and linked again. Or

b) goes and seeks clarification to over-turn this booting, and to "set this security gaurd straight". Well gee, then the "pressing question" that "needs clarification" gets shunted back and forth between all sorts of desks (and perhaps passes by the purist archie on the payroll) and presto, someone says "no you can't".

But as in your case, it shows that sometimes , in cases like that, to treat it as "isolated incidents", NOT something that either constitutes a rule or law, or something that needs clarification. Ie.: avoid just that one person in the future.

 

[KinTN]

Some folks see a wrong and work to make it right. I admire those folks.

Tom, I agree with your point of not stirring up crap where there is no need. But where there is a clear ban, we need to fight. And when we fight, we need to allocate our resources so as to win those we can most likely win and then move to the riskier cases.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Yes. As you say: If there were a true ban. Then I guess the debate would boil down to what constitutes a "true ban". Because some people consider isolated encounters or ancillary verbage to be a "true ban"

 

[mudpuppy]

Hey KinTN..I know you have trouble with the TVA...we talked about that last year right? Truly a bummer, and I hear where you are coming from, but really? We have thousands of trespassers crossing our Nat borders daily without a care in the world and nobody here in authority seems interested in enforcing those laws...meanwhile, an American taxpayer such as yourself or Grunter is worried about some obscure "no detecting" area?
.The worry of breaking some sort of law keeps a fellow from harmlessly detecting said location for a few pennies?

I understand! We all here want to protect our sport and follow laws and all that, not justifying "law breaking" but really? I guess a guy just has to do with what one feels comfortable with...sort of a private matter we all must figure out on our own? There doesn't seem to be a general consensus within the detecting community on the subject...Tom presents an alternative strategy to hunt non-posted spots...(just go and do it until somebody wearing a badge and gun tells you you cant) and you present yours, (get written permission up front) Whatever floats your boat I guess, I am just about getting tired of people telling me what to do when I am the one paying their salaries with my tax money! Gosh what a mess!
Mud

 

[KinTN]

Yeah, TVA has a ban. The only workaround I know is asking property owners and park rangers for permission on the land that they own/control. So far, I have been given 100% permission on all those I have approached. But TVA is still in the wrong and I still support local efforts to change their mind. Not by defying and cursing them or sneaking onto their enforcement areas, but by being an adult and staying within the law. Things may be different in CA and how those laws are enforced, but around here, they DO take your machine and claim the right to take your vehicle as well. They have done it with indian relic hunters and at least 1 detectorist. Maybe someday we all will have to go outside the law to secure our rights, but (at least for me) it wont be over metal detecting.

Another 'problem' comes from agent provocateurs that entice otherwise law abiding people to break the law for whatever jollies they get out of that. While I don't think Tom is one of them, the effect is the same. The guy saying DO IT takes zero risk while the sucker that gains encouragement possibly pays the price. Now again, I am Not talking about gray areas, but areas you have a reasonable reason to think might be unlawful. When it isn't clear and you believe it be be reasonable, by all means Hunt It; but if you aren't sure, look up the laws/ordinances/private acts/etc. Most of it is on the net and the rest of it is at your county courthouse. Playing jailhouse lawyer and claiming technicalities is no way to live. Ask any officer or experienced jailbird how that attitude works in real court. And theres a moral implication on lawbreaking here too, but I understand how little that matters to most folks anymore.

I am not the enemy- I want to detect these sites too. If there is a documented archeological site and not just someplace some native took a dump 400yrs ago, I am for protecting it but everything else should be fair game. If more archeo sites are found (by MDers, no doubt), they can be added later. It is truly idiotic that beaches can be placed off limits when the tide moves massive amounts of sand in an hour. mud, you are right in your assertions imo. But you too know that reality intrudes on what is 'right'. But then again, I'm back to my comment above re where I will make my stand. When you make yours, make it someplace that matters.
Ken

 

[EL Pulltabio]

I've never heard of anyone running into a problem detecting on a public salt water beach.
There are probably exceptions like Jekyll Island in Georgia but much of that island is state owned.
I live in the South where it's too hot to detect during those hot summer days. One night, I'm detecting
behind a gated community in shallow salt water. A security guard marches out with a powerful flashlight
shinning in my face. "What are you doing?" he sneered. I replied that that question didn't deserve an answer.
Then I pointed to the homes and businesses that stood within the community. I told him that his
responsibility ended where their property line ended. I stated too, that I was standing in the Atlantic Ocean
and yelled, "get away from me." He replied that he would call and report me to the local sheriff's department.
I replied, "go right ahead. They'll tell you the same thing." That was 3 years ago and I still detect there....even
though I have to hike 2 miles along the beach to bypass the guard shack.
It helps when you've spent nearly 30 years as a big city cop to know not to be intimidated by a security guard.

El pulltabio, for starters, thanx for your service as cop. Not an easy job! stressful and our hats off to you.

As for your particular story, you say you've been going since then, for 3 yrs, and not had any problems. eh? But it strikes me that for a whole host of other skittish md'rs, that here's what might have happened instead:

The md'r tucks his tail between his legs and hight-tails it out of there (afterall, it's no fun being booted, now is it? ). And the average md'r would respectuflly assume that this must be the case, and it must be dis-allowed. Now I grant you , that was just a security gaurd, not a cop. But the same can be said of if it were an actual cop in the same exact situation. You know, like if a person in one of those houses calls the cops because she sees "suspicious activity" or "some strange person" on the beach. Now the cop, when he gets there to answer this call, is duty-bound to please miss busy-body. And maybe he can find something he says you're not supposed to do. Ie.: beach closes at sunset, or taking and harvesting clauses, or harming wildlife, or cultural heritage, etc...

So the md'r leaves, and either:

a) posts it ("such & such beach is off-limits"), for all his other hobbyists to know and be aware of. Before long, it's just taken as gospel fact, when such things get linked and linked and linked again. Or

b) goes and seeks clarification to over-turn this booting, and to "set this security gaurd straight". Well gee, then the "pressing question" that "needs clarification" gets shunted back and forth between all sorts of desks (and perhaps passes by the purist archie on the payroll) and presto, someone says "no you can't".

But as in your case, it shows that sometimes , in cases like that, to treat it as "isolated incidents", NOT something that either constitutes a rule or law, or something that needs clarification. Ie.: avoid just that one person in the future.

It was his initial contact with me that was so negative that it instantly became a battle of wills.
I quickly weighed my options (including having to explain my actions to a deputy) and decided
to stand my ground. I was certain I had not violated any law and that by itself made me determined to
confront this minnow pretending to be a whale.
The rest of the story went as follows: I wanted to see what would happen next and kept detecting. I thought one of 2 things
would happen. Either a deputy would arrive (but I doubted it) or the security guard would return which he did. He again
shinned his flashlight on me (from about 75 yards away) and this time I returned the favor with my flashlight.
Over the years, I think I have been an asset to law enforcement that patrols the beach at night.
Examples? One night a muscular White male with a shaved head shows up and starts a conversation. It's about 3am and only he and I. I see he's
bleeding from 2 separate wounds on his head in addition to being drunk. He stated someone hit him with a baseball bat at a nearby nightspot.
I found him 20 minutes later unconscious laying on the wet sand dangerously close to the now incoming tide.
Had to hustle back to shore because I couldn't wake him and called the sheriff's office. The "meat wagon" guys took him away on a gurney.
Found a fully loaded chromed plated S&W .38 caliber in the surf. Figured it was stolen or used in a crime.
Turned it over to patrolling deputy...it turned out to be stolen.

 

[mudpuppy]

Yep! This is what a long Winter is good for...hashing out all the details..
Mud

 

[KinTN]

Yep.

I went hunting yesterday and found the ground still frozen. Quit after a half an hour of extracting quarters from ice/dirt. Passed over a bunch of other signals because I HATE digging in tundra. I don't know how all those Yankees survive their long winters!

 

[Grunter]

Fellows I didn't hunt on the National Seashore. I hunted just to the north of their supposed boundary. I didn't go onto to their publically owned,privately owned stretch of beach. I was giving an example of what might be found on their beachs. So now that I am back home after spending a month hunting New Smyrna Beach,Daytona Beach Fl. the Seashore I ask about was Canaveral National Seashore. I found about $13.00 in clad,no bling and alot of trash. I doubt that I would have added much to my totals if allowed to hunt their beach, however I would have removed alot of trash and hazardous materials from their beach. Anyone know about that particular stretch?