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Doubts over Manticore 50% extra power.

50% more than what? It's called marketing. No substantiated facts to back up the claim is required 😬55
50% more power does add more depth but does not double it.
Go to Fisher's Site and to Dave Johnson's essays. http://www.fisherlab.com/hobby/davejohnson/davejohnsonjohngardinerinterview.htm
There are few people that understand detectors more or have had a bigger impact (starting with the 1260.)
"Getting extra depth out of a VLF, multifrequency, or PI machine is very difficult, because these machines follow an inverse 6th power law relationship between signal voltage and depth. If everything else is maintained equal, doubling the depth requires 64 times as much signal. If this is done by increasing transmitter power, doubling depth requires 4,096 times as much battery drain. That’s the basic reason why depth increases come so slowly in this industry.
The biggest impediment to getting usable depth in the ground, is interference from magnetic and electrically conductive minerals in the ground, which can produce signals hundreds of times as strong as that of the metal target you’re trying to detect and hopefully identify." (sic)
(And throw in electrical interference on top of this. I lave not found a DD loop as quiet as a concentric when it comes to the environment in any detector)
 
I believe an engineer mentioned the computing power is so much higher it processes much more of the reflected power. Possibly explaining the more power statement.
That is goobledegook. A detector does not need much computing power to start with or reflected signal. Detectors today are induction balance and that means there is a frequency shift that is measured. (The PRG was non motion and would i.d. at 12" in 1972 in wet salt and it was an IB. But get it into mild mineral and the depth disappeared.) But a strong signal is not bad. The ground signal may be much stronger than the target signal, but the ground signal tends to remain the same, or change very slowly, as the loop is moved. The signal from the target, on the other hand, will rise quickly to a peak and then subside when the loop is swept over it. Using motion to separate ground from target signals by looking at the rate of change of the receive signal rather than looking at the receive signal itself was a major move in depth from George Payne in 1976. A ground balance point gives us a reference in a target's i.d., and several ground balance points give more accuracy. I doubt any detector today has more computing power than a Whites V3i, or needs half as much. If it does I do not want to meet it because the danger exist of it becoming wrapped around a pole.
 
I have the Core and am totally satisfied with it. I'm learning more all the time. I don't care if you tell me it has 10,000 times more power or it has less power than a watch battery. I want results, so far I've found many coins at the 9" plus depth. I like how it separates and the 2D mapping. You know one thing about this detector that few people even think of or admit. IT'S A FUN DETECTOR TO USE. iT'S EASY TO USE STRAIGHT OUT THE BOX, THE MENU IS EASY TO LEARN. If you don't have the manual with you all the functions are on each setting just click on the Pencil emoji and go to info it will tell you what each setting does and where it's useful. Any other unit do that. It lets you program the soft buttons to the function of your choice. If you haven't used this detector then don't bash it. I'm not saying it's the best detector for all but it does what it's supposed to .
Saying you are satisfied just means it meets your expectations, needs, or desires. ( I'm sure that people who bought the AMC Pacer or Gremlin said the same thing.) It says nothing about the capabilities of the detector, just you way you see it.
 
Interesting how people who have never posted in the Equinox forum are coming in and saying the Manticore/900/700 are BS. When you compare the forums here to postings/ finds looks like Minelab is predominant. I normally hunt fields in Germany that have been worked hard by other detectors and find good (albeit small sized) finds. My gold coin Avatar is a case in point
Yep I’ve noticed that also I believe more people use minelabs
Mark
 
Minelab doesn't say where the "power" is but as Mack says don't knock it ill you try it. I will also agree most of it's in the processing with some in the depth. 95 percent of these you tubers are misleading viewers for the sake of self-benefit or lack of experience. There are a few good ones, good luck sorting them out LOL I for one am killing it with the Manticore that I bought with my own funds.
I know of no one that bought a detector with some one else's "funds." Where do I move to to do this? For the record I want the power in transmit & receive, not processing. The XLT had enough to be comfortable, was easy and was fast: and the V3i would turn a NASA engineer psychotic. MORE I do not want to see.
 
That's a thought.
What if they use 1 watt per frequencie.
Sending them out mili seconds apart.
In groups thousands of a second apart.
That could effectively be 2-5 watts output.
Kinda like this.
..... ..... ..... .....
That is not the way VLF works. It is constant wave meaning it transmits and receives continuously. Start and Stop is pulse. The frequency determines the amount of power needed to fill the "q" of the loop.
A frequency of 40 kHf is very high energy and fills the loop with little battery power. The silver frequency of 2.45 kHz is very low energy and little affected by wet salt or mineral but takes a lot of battery power to fill the loop's Q.
(Filling the Q means there is a lower rate of energy loss in a loop which is an inductor that stores energy in a magnetic field when electric current flows through it.)
 
50% more than what? It's called marketing. No substantiated facts to back up the claim is required 😬
Dirt Duke,
That is funny! In just a few words you could not have been more on point! When I first heard that I knew it would be like a magnet.

You are 100% correct! In sales it is called 'a puffing statement'! Hypothetically, I sell the best shoes in town! A puffing statement!
So! What does 50% more power mean? Nothing! Absolutely nothing! Nothing!
Isn't that funny! lol R O F L This is a parody
 
My take on this is that most of us are not electrical engineers or physicists, and so we have no idea what is going on in the inner workings of these detectors.

I saw that video, and the logic he uses; one thing I can say is there are reasons he may not be correct -- things he's not considering.
To illustrate...and I have NO IDEA if what I'm about to say is correct, but it COULD be at least loosely correct, and would be something that he is not considering....

Let's say there is 1 Watt of "power" that is "going into the ground" with the EQX, AND with the Manticore, and the FCC is happy. NOW, both units are "simultaneous multifrequency" machines, of course. So they are by definition, it would seem, sending more than one frequency into the ground at the exact same time. So, it would seem to me that if you have 1W to work with, but you are transmitting multiple frequencies simultaneously, it would seem to me that it's at least possible that the way it happens physically is that the 1 W is DIVIDED UP, amongst each of the frequencies that are being simultanously transmitted. SO -- let's say that in the Equinox, there are 3 different frequencies trasmitted, and all three are transmitted SIMULTANEOUSLY (and let's assume they are 5 kHz, 10 kHz, and 15 kHz). In this case, then, it would seem to at least potentially imply that each of the 3 frequencies are transmitted at a power of 1/3 of the total 1 W (.33 W each). Right?

So, now, let's say that to get "50% more power" to the coil, let's pretend that what Minelab did in Manticore is that they are now transmitting 4 different frequencies (let's say 2.5, 5, 10, and 15), but they transmit them only TWO AT A TIME, in rapid succession -- first they transmit 2.5 and 5, simultaneously then they transmit 10 and 15, simultaneously. SO, now, in my speculative scenario, the 1W of power is only divided amongst TWO frequencies, and thus each of the first two frequencies transmitted get 50% of the power each (1/2 W each), and then the SECOND two also get 1/2 W each. SO -- if you then look at it in terms of how much power was EACH INDIVIDUAL frequency transmitted, it is indeed "50% more" with the Manticore (in this hypothetical scenario). The 5 kHz frequency transmission, for example, was getting .33 W of the total 1 W in the hypothetical Equinox I described here, and yet in the hypothetical Manticore, the 5 kHz transmission was using .5 W of the total 1 W. And, .5 W is indeed 50% more than .33 W, even though TOTAL transmit power is still 1 W in both machines.

NOW -- that is ENTIRELY made up; I have no idea if that is what they are doing or how they do it...or even if that's even how "transmit power" works (i.e. divided amongst the number of frequencies being transmitted). But, that is ONE (among other) possibility of how Minelab MAY NOT be lying. All I'm saying is that there are things that we may not know that we are not even aware that we doesn't know, and it's something that looking at the specs, like the gentleman did, would NOT reveal this (in my hypothetical case).

The BOTTOM LINE is that it an outstanding machine, amonst other outstanding machines on the market, and I personally really like it, no matter HOW Minelab's marketing department may spin things. They "spun" things when they released the Equinox, also, saying it would "obsolete" all other detectors. Did it? Not REALLY. But, does that mean it wasn't an incredible, and I'd argue game-changing machine? Of course not. The marketers at Minelab are over-exuberant, but Minelab's development team has always been top notch, in my book.

Steve
There is too much not knowing and "too much assuming going on out there" (to paraphrase Sen Howell Heflin)
The frequencies do not get equal power from the batteries because they do not need it to fill the Q of the loop for a particular frequency. Filling the Q means there is a lower rate of energy loss in a loop which is an inductor that stores energy in a magnetic field when electric current flows through it. 40 kHf is very high energy and fills the loop with little battery power, but 2.5 kHz is very low energy and takes a great deal of battery power. And there are many things you do not know and to start with: each frequency is not transmitted at 1/3 the power of the total because each frequency draws a different amount of power to fill the Q, and the higher frequency have much more energy and its easier to reach a specific transmit point, with less battery drain. The lowest frequencies are least affected by wet salt or iron mineral, but do not respond well to small targets or low conductors and the higher frequencies are hindered by mineral and salt but react strongly to small targets and low conductors. I will quote Dave Johnson again:"Getting extra depth out of a VLF, multifrequency, or PI machine is very difficult, because these machines follow an inverse 6th power law relationship between signal voltage and depth. If everything else is maintained equal, doubling the depth requires 64 times as much signal. If this is done by increasing transmitter power, doubling depth requires 4,096 times as much battery drain. Are you willing to tote a car battery around?
 
Minelabs top engineer claimed it to be extra power to the coil. The power transmit energy seems not to be increased though.
If it is to the coil what can it be but transmit? What do you base your statement on that the transmit energy does not seem to be increased if its to the coil?
 
True. But the FCC has a limit of one watt.
I'm surprised what they can do with one watt.
I wish I could go in every machine I own and tweak the power output. At output to a least 2 watts.
5-10 who knows. Be fun to try.
WHO is putting out this FCC fairy tale? It is not true. PIs exceed that amount significantly. Metal detectors are unregulated.
 
If it is to the coil what can it be but transmit? What do you base your statement on that the transmit energy does not seem to be increased if its to the coil?
To stretch the electromagnetic field out to obtain more depth means driving more current through the transmit coil that is basic electromagnetics.
it looks to me like the so called 50% extra power is some convoluted method that is hidden in a shroud of mystery. . The so called 50% extra power in my opinion is
a selling scam. The people using it are saying it goes no deeper than say a nox or a ctx. I think it is a bit deceptive by minelab , can't call them liars, i would get roasted.
 
To stretch the electromagnetic field out to obtain more depth means driving more current through the transmit coil that is basic electromagnetics.
it looks to me like the so called 50% extra power is some convoluted method that is hidden in a shroud of mystery. . The so called 50% extra power in my opinion is
a selling scam. The people using it are saying it goes no deeper than say a nox or a ctx. I think it is a bit deceptive by minelab , can't call them liars, i would get roasted.
Making the field bigger is what more power does--it does not shrink it and its not "current" that does it, but voltage. My Treasure Baron had a Deep Hunter module using 8 more batteries and I can assure you it added the 40% extra depth it claimed.
 
Wow. Looks like we gots a good whizzin match goin on here...:(
If there is an FCC regulation then someone can put it up, but that will be hard because it does not exist. We went through this about 8-10 years ago and Reg Sniff myself and several other people made it clear on the Whites Forum this same rumor was nonsense. (Handheld 2 way radios of 4 watts can be used without a license. Go up to 5 and you need a license.)
 
WHO is putting out this FCC fairy tale? It is not true. PIs exceed that amount significantly. Metal detectors are unregulated.
A guy in my unit in the Cav at Hood had a Gremlin.....I would not go around the block in a Pacer.
:ROFLMAO:
It was just so unique.
Some of the hotrods guys built of them were just different.

This is a list of radiated unintended power limits.
Is that correct ?
This list goes into the GHz.
I believe the device mentioned is the device accepted or regulated in that band ?

In other words. Metal detectors are not specifically regulated. Except for spurious unintentional radiated energy levels.
And in those frequencie bands it's 10 watts ???
https://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Engineering_Technology/Documents/bulletins/oet63/oet63rev.pdf
 

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FCC Equipment Authorization – RF Device​


 
I know of no one that bought a detector with some one else's "funds." Where do I move to to do this? For the record I want the power in transmit & receive, not processing. The XLT had enough to be comfortable, was easy and was fast: and the V3i would turn a NASA engineer psychotic. MORE I do not want to see.
Vlad my friend I was referring to a hand full of people {you tubers, testers etc..} who quite obviously didn't buy their own machines. That said I am not selling for anyone. With your archaic attitude they {manufacturers} won't come looking for you. I will agree vlf machines have basically seen their depth limit, but that is not what's going on here. Processing is where it's at AKA target separation. There is a lot to be learned here. JMO
HH Jeff
 
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