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[earthmansurfer]

This is a thread for those of you who like finding deeper coins.

I have touched a few 8" coins and some other targets to 9" but no silver, just copper or zinc. From my observations, starting at this depth, I start to see iron bouncing into the upper teens and often into the 20's. Well, I was reading Andy

 

[squirrel1]

My observations are as follows:
I have 2 e-tracs and keep different sized coils on each (10x12 and 6x8 sef coils). I visited a site last week on multiple times. At first my e-trac would only track in auto at around 20 or so. Now we had a bunch of rain right before I started hitting this site. I found a liberty seated dime 1845 at 5 inches. It was probably on edge because I missed the pinpoint a good 4 inches. Good conductive numbers with ferrous hanging around 18. The next day went back and found a 56 wheat. I also noticed the auto sensitivity up to 22/23. The third time I went back 2 days later and noticed my e-trac was running at 23/24 in auto sensivity. I found a 23 merc dime and a ladies silver engagement or wedding ring. This site had lots of activity in the late 1700s and was wide open in the 1800s until around 1955. I knew there had to be some goodies around and the only person to ever hunt this site uses an Xlt whites machine. What I saw is:

I can't prove it yet but I believe excessive ground moisture inhibits the etrac's depth capabilty. I have witnessed this too with my v3i by going to pinpoint and only seeing 4 inches on the screen. When it dries up a little the pinpoint screen will start giving higher numbers.

As far as deep targets. The 1923 merc and the ring were deep (9 plus inches). The area did have a lot of iron in it. I was running manual sensivity at 25 with long sounds fast on deep off. I was running basically an open screen 01 ferrous disc out, 28-35 ferrous disc out and conductive 50 line disc out. With the ring, I got a high tone-not a good clear tone, the tone was repeatative from 2 directions screen numbers 27-41, I turned 90 degrees and notta a sound, turned back and still got a repeative signal with 27-41. This was with an extreme small amount of coil movement of the target. Went to quickmask and scanned the target heard the same tone and swept while watching the screen. I bet a swept the target 25 times at varying sweep speeds and distance and the ferrous numbers only jumped once or twice to the top of the screen. So I dug and was successful. The 23 merc basically did the same thing. I was running with the 10x12 sef coil. The pro coil tends to false for me more in iron. I have made good finds with it. I read on the explorer site and give Bryce's posts a great deal of weight. He's not fond of the procoil it seems. With the 10x12 , I will dig a repeatative 2 way signal and yes I will dig some iron. With the procoil you will dig more iron if digging 2 way hits with high ferrous numbers.

I have dug 3 total successful silver coin targets with ferrous numbers reading 27. My soil in this area is not the best but not the worse either. I do recommend revisiting sites that have been productive if they were initially hit with the ground being somewhat saturated. Given time I may dig some targets with even higher ferrous numbers especially if I see them at a site that'a already proven to hold good coins.

 

[Southwind]

I'm sure ground conditions have a lot to do with it, but my experience has been that FE is pretty much useless below 6", with DEEP = ON and FAST = ON, and useless below 7-8" with them OFF.

My FE bounces from single digits to in the 20's on the same deep coin from the same exact direction. CO numbers are very accurate, and the only thing I use on deeper than 6" targets.

 

[EtracTom-AdirondacksNY]

I agree with Southwind and that is why I keep saying I don't really care nor pay attention much at all to the ferrous numbers just the conductive number.

 

[earthmansurfer]

Squirrel - I agree about excess moisture inhibiting depth. I've seen it with my V3i also. It seems 2 or 3 days after a rain, or there abouts depending on how dry the ground was, is often optimal. When there is a lot of iron (rust) in the ground, the moisture acts as a conduit to the iron rust and it just lights the ground up. The V3i didn't like this for overall stability and just like the E-Trac, you see more iron falsing.

I haven't tried, but have seen it mentioned, to have the CO 50 line discrimed out. Is this to help with iron falsing? And interesting, you dug solid Fe 27 signals, not bouncy, and found silver coins? What was the deciding factor for you to dig a 27 Fe? As long as there isn't a lot of solid Fe numbers in that range, I would dig a few and find out.

Southwind and Tom - Interesting but then wouldn't you be digging lots of deep iron with high CO numbers if you didn't pay attention to Fe numbers? Again, I guess I'm asking what is the deciding factor as whether or not to dig. It can't just be the CO number as iron hits at the same range as coins, right?

Bouncing Fe numbers are helpful, but I have only dug coins to 8" with them. Are you guys saying below that 8" mark or so, the Fe numbers might not bounce and will be solid, as in what I quoted above from Andy's book and with what Squirrel said? (So bouncing Fe numbers might be a deeper, but not deep, hint.)

Southwind - I'm a bit confused by your first statement above. Are you saying for very deep coins you run deep on and fast on?

This is great info, and I'm planning a mode of attack for the next hunt!

Thanks guys,
Albert

edit - I should add this quote as it is quite relevant here:

In general...........flecks of rust will cause a target to 'up-average'. . . . whereas... solid iron objects (like nails) will cause targets to 'down-average'. Mineralization adds to the equation also.
Mineralization is somewhat unique in the fact that it'll cause targets to up-average ... as long as the targets are shallow-to-medium depths. But..... when the target is fairly deep...... mineralization (in general) will cause a target to ID as 'iron'. Tom Dankowski

 

[utahshovelhead]

I might add my techniques that may help you.
If I am searching for deep coins in an OLD area with iron I tend to dig more targets that can come up with the FE in the low numbers, don't always ignore the FE: I check them again while toggeling between the iron mask and my set up, IT may jump from swing to swing with just enough consistency to make me interested. ( say every 3rd or 5Th swing it hits a solid number with high CO) then I always run the pinpoint over the target to FEEL the size of the target. I may even change the discrimination quickly before digging to discrim out the lower FE numbers as this sometimes will push a good target readout up into the higher or more correct numbers more consistently ( I know sounds like funny business but it has worked for me) And most my deep finds have come from checking this way.

NOW after feeling all the reactions to the previous things ( I've changed settings and rechecked the reactions at this point and I suggest you do too depending on the ground type your hunting) THEN I will dig a few inches off the top and check the reactions again. Sometimes depending on if I'm in a nice lawn or not then I will just dig any signal to see what it is for the first maybe hour or so if they area deep.

What is it that makes the decision for me? I think that in my head I first convince myself that I'm not sure it's iron or that it is a nice solid coin sized object iron or not and that it holds some nice SOLID response though deep. I know from experience that the deep ones do not react the predicted way most the time so I look at the targets with deep reactions differently. The Sound, clarity, are very important and if the number keeps hitting the CO high fairly consistently and close too the same numbers then I am most likely to dig. Even if the cursor hits say on the 12 line every 4Th or 5 Th time I call that consistent with the deep ones.

I really only do this when in OLD good producing areas where the targets found are worth the time if good. (half the detecting is in finding that area)

Overall if I get in a good spot like that I may dig way more junk then good targets. I don't detect like this everywhere but it definitely has helped me everywhere to be more IN TUNE? so to speak with the deep ones And Ive gotten better at it.

You most likely know all this, but I hope it helped.

good luck

 

[earthmansurfer]

Utahshovelhead - GREAT POST. Thanks for all those tips. Let me clarify one of your points.

I might add my techniques that may help you.
If I am searching for deep coins in an OLD area with iron I tend to dig more targets that can come up with the FE in the low numbers, don't always ignore the FE: I check them again while toggeling between the iron mask and my set up, IT may jump from swing to swing with just enough consistency to make me interested. ( say every 3rd or 5Th swing it hits a solid number with high CO) then I always run the pinpoint over the target to FEEL the size of the target. I may even change the discrimination quickly before digging to discrim out the lower FE numbers as this sometimes will push a good target readout up into the higher or more correct numbers more consistently ( I know sounds like funny business but it has worked for me) And most my deep finds have come from checking this way.

When you say higher or more correct numbers, you are talking Fe, so I think you mean "lower" Fe numbers (more correct) and not higher numbers, right? I have noticed what you are talking about (I think). For example, if I have quickmask open I may see a lot of hits in the iron range on a target, but when I switch back to normal discrim (Fe 1 or even more (Fe 27), those iron hits have now moved up, almost like they were pushed out. I think we can thank trash density high here.

I think the rest of your post I'm clear on. Thanks again,
Albert

 

[Southwind]

I rely on sound and pinpointing to determine iron. It seems to me that the FE system uses a much wider band than the CO. That is to say the CO side seems to use a tighter narrower pattern which makes separation of targets more precise. The FE side seems to be a wider pattern as it gets influenced more by nearby ferrous targets making it less reliable. I've recovered deep coins with a FE as low as 01 or as high as the 20's. I would never rely on it to make a determination on a deep target.

Iron generally will have that higpitcheded tink sound and you'll usually find at least one direction where there is no sound at all. The giveaway is when you pinpoint. False iron signals are most often produced from pointed parts of iron. I.E. the point of a nail. When you pinpoint the strongest signal will come from the largest part of the iron. This means in motion/discrimination mode the signal will come from the pointed/tip of the nail and when you pinpoint it will pinpoint off the head of the nail. This makes the target move from motion signal to pinpoint. If you pinpoint and it pinpoints off the side from where you got the good signal, chances are very high it is iron.

 

[squirrel1]

I know one can find coins when digging high ferrous numbers. Andy's book says the same and recommends running open screen down to 27 fe just so one doesn't miss deep coins. I have noticed this can be noisy and if one raises the disc to say 24 fe, it can quieten the etrac down abit. I think for one to find those high reading ferrous signals with good conductive numbers, the metal detecting gods are aligned. Things such as mineralization, sensivity setting, amount of iron in the ground, moisture, surrounding targets and depth all contribute. The key for me is the sound and depth gauge. lus does the iffy target keep hitting in the same place. I have been over iron and got a signal(really close to the sweet sound we are all accustomed to hearing). As I continue to sweep moving the coil around a lot of times if I move off the target and move back over it it changes position and or changes sound. I also pinpoint to see if there is some large iron near too and determine if my target is close to the end of the iron signal. As far as the 50 conductive line it's not necessary in my book and I may even disc out the 49 line also. I see that number come up on my screen alot when I'm over ole rusty nails and iron with pretty good sound too. I think the cursor position while pinpointing may give a good clue to the target composition but it seems when one is in a trashy spot its not reliable. I really like running the long sound audio in a trashy site with fast recovery on. It seems to add a little audio to make up for the clip you get in recovery fast on. I run my gain at max too and deep off. This is something I plan on experimenting with. Turning the gain down while in a trashy place and see what the iron falses sound like versus a good target. I ran into a couple of gents today while I was detecting. One of them was a detectorist as well. He commented he had never seen an etrac before. His bud is planning on getting a dector. The other gent had a whites model. I gave them a demonstration. The number one thing I like about the etrac aside from target id, depth, no ground balance, is the fact you don't have to sweep the coil very fast to get it to work so when you are in a tight space or rough terrain you can go slow and not rip your arm out of socket or your coil of your rod. Those gents couldn't believe the etrac was singing consistently with a slow sweep on a 10 inch clad dime with an air test.

 

[Goes4ever]

When I have dug very deep coins they often come in with a FE of 01, never high like 20 or 27
I have never dug a good target ever with a FE number over 17, and trust me, I have dug a blue million of signals hoping but it is always deep iron. It must just be my soil, which is extremely mild in my area, but good targets are never over 17 on FE.

 

[Jason in Enid]

My experience with FE numbers is the same as G4E. I gave up using a screen open to the 27 line. I can't think of a single coin I dug with solid numbers higher than 20. A little bounce down isn't a bad sign, it's about where it hits the majority of the time.

 

[Goes4ever]

wow, someone actually agreed with me, finally....lol glad I am not the only one that never digs good targets with high FE #s

 

[Rick(ND)]

I too don't remember ever digging a coin with a FE number over 20, but set my FE at 22 in case there is a coin close to iron. 8-14 seems to be my area where I find most of the coins, but have seen a few as low as 4.I run mine in quick mask and conductivity at 10 while the ferrous is at 22 and listen too all the tones.

 

[squirrel1]

Well, just because you have never seen it doesn't make it impossible. I refer you to Andy Sabisch's book entitled "The Minelab" Explorer & E-trac Handbook pages 78, 79, and 80. He actually gives this info as tips on pages 78 and 79 and mentioned it on page 80 talking about 4 tone conductive audio.

Page78:
(TIP)
DEEP TARGETS while the etracs's target ID is much more stable than the explorer's, there is some variation of the FE values as discussed above. Most of the variation will be within 10-17 band but very deep targets can register as low as "27' on the FE scale. ...............................
Also, I just went outside and dropped a clad dime on ground. I swept my etrac over it at various heights. At around 8 inches if I hold the height above the coin somewhat consistent the dime comes in at 19-43 and will stay there. And just think no minerals or iron in the air either. This high ferrous reading on coins with the etrac is sorta like finding a coin with a negative vdi reading using a white's detector. A lot of people including me have never done that either, but there are cases where it has happened in the field.

 

[earthmansurfer]

Great posts guys and it makes sense that we are not all seeing the same thing as it just goes to show you the ground varies (and we adjust accordingly). Again, see my quote from Tom Dankowski above. It makes me think that since my ground has a fair amount of iron mineralization that there is a chance I might see coins fall into the iron range as the iron could really pull down the VDI's at depth; especially considering the pronounced iron bounces I see. But I have to dig some of those mid twenty signals with good sound and good CO numbers to be certain. And I should follow the other instructions and tips given in this thread.

I'd be curious if Goes4ever, Jason and others who haven't seen coins fall into the Fe range (and stay there) have non iron mineralized soils (or something else in common) and those who have dug coins that hit in the Fe range have something else in common.

That said, something that is interesting about FBS technology is how the units treat iron mineralization and small flecks. Let me quote Dankowski again here:

much less resonant to iron............. especially tiny flecks/flakes of rust. In fact......... tiny/minute flecks of rust to the (psudo/quasi PI platform) FBS units (electronic/electromagnetic decay-rate) are simply viewed upon as 'minerals'.

So I guess our results will depend on where our soil falls.

I do hope future generations of E-Tracs give us some feedback on where the soil does fall. Because we could compare that and know what to look for in our individual soils.

One other thing that deserves mention here is that "thunking" sound that I have slightly experienced and I think it was Southwind who said he has dug those and they were all iron. Again, think of my soil and others who report it (mine is 1% iron mineralized) and then those who have only found it to be iron. Do you know what your soil is Southwind? Since the "thunking" seems to occur at the limits of depth, I wonder what occurs beyond that, e.g do coins then come in as iron in certain soils or not at all???

Thanks again,
Albert

 

[squirrel1]

I did another little experiment that's interesting. When sweeping a clad dime dropped on the ground, I raised the coil and watched the numbers until I could only get the etrac to squeak a tone of some kind. It seems everytime I got to the break point where the machine would just squeak on a clad dime the conductive numbers read in the lower 40s and the ferrous would never be higher than 28. I performed this exercise 10 times an attained basically the results each time. I realize this is an airtest, but it does shed some light on the possible 27 ceiling talked about in the minelab handbook.

 

[nge]

Interesting thread. I just listen to sounds mainly. When I get a certain sound that sounds like nickels, I will look at the screen and see numbers in the 12-13, 11-13, range. I never dig foil, tabs, slaw with these numbers. However the other day I got a mixed signal (med. tone) high tic, but more med. When I dug the signal, I got a silver ring and an Indian nickel in the same hole. The ring was only about 4 inches deep and the nickel was 2 inches deeper. I was using the 8X6 s.e.f. coil, Bill S's. "trashy park" pattern, fast on, deep off, all my other settings are maxed. I have my threshold set for low freq. sounds because that is the range I can hear, example; I can't hear mice squeeking, birds chirping, high pitched cell phone ring tones, many landline ring tones, ( I like traditional bell tones better) also cannot hear high pitched whistle of incomming artillery, (which is why I was not suitable for Vietnam draft). The ground I hunt has many rusted beer caps at the 6 to 9 inch levels very near each other, it's like a rusted carpet. In other words, it is like a national pulltab convention........NGE

 

[Big Boys Hobbies]

Great post!

All I can respond is to say on deep coins or trashy inviorments..... Audio audio audio. Forget the #'s.

 

[Jason in Enid]

Squirrel, nobody is saying it's impossible to find coins that read with higher FE numbers. Some of us are just saying we haven't personally found any like that.

As for the thunking, I HAVE found silver with signals like that. I even made a reference to it in my last video that the signal was "thunky". That target was a silver quarter around 8 inches deep with iron near it.

 

[silversweeper]

Ever since I purchased my etrac I've tried to find iffy deep signals that I thought might be coins or other good relics but to this day my experience has been like Goes4ever's. It seems like I've always known it was a good target when it was a good target, mainly by the sound and because the FE was 17 or less. The targets that I've dug which have been iffy and had higher FE numbers have always been trash. I've read many posts by other etrac users that they check iffy signals by opening up the screen to quickmask and seeing where the crosshairs hit when pinpointing, so that is what I do now with iffy signals if I have the time. Nearly always the crosshairs end up in the bottom right hand corner, or close to it, and I don't bother digging those anymore (I have enough rusty nails in my collection, no need for more!). As for the "thunk" sound, I've not experienced that much either. I run my etrac as hot as I can get it, manual sensitivity close to 30 all the time if possible, relatively high gain and fluctuate between deep on/off and set fast on or off depending on how much trash is in the ground I'm hunting. Now......having said that, I still worry that I'm missing good finds because I've dug few really deep targets (10 inches or more) and very few really old silver coins. Most of my silver has come in at 9 inches or less. So I'm either still not getting all the goodies or I've just not hit the right spots yet.