Alert to prospective buyers of the X-terra 50....

[CWRelichunter]

I just thought I would pass this along to anyone who may be contemplating purchasing the X-terra 50. Please understand as you read this post that I am not trying to bash the new Minelab model, I am simply trying to give everyone a heads-up before they make a decision to purchase a new $600 detector.

I have found out that the ALL-METAL mode is <u><b>not</u></b> a true threshold based all-metal mode. It is a <u><b>ZERO-DISC</u></b> mode (just like the Garrett GTA models have.)

I mention this because I purchased an X-Terra 50 without reading EVERY single post that has been made on the X-terra 50. My mistake. Thirty minutes after I purchased mine, I read a post that finally mentioned the all-metal mode was just a ZERO-DISC mode. Heck, not ONE review that I have read mentioned a ZERO-DISC mode. I guess I should have assumed something was not quite right since there was not a Threshold control that normally goes along with a true all-metal mode.

However, when a manufacture has a button called <b>All-Metal</b> I tend to assume it is a real all-metal mode and not ZERO-DISC mode. The All-METAL button could have just as easily been called <b>ZERO-DISC</b>. Both have 8 letters. Go figure.

With all of this "new technology" (?) floating around to improve metal detectors I find it kind of funny that the all-metal mode is not only NOT being fine-tuned by manufacturers for continued superior performance, but in many cases it's being totally ignored. Get this now, the deepest mode of operation is totally 100% ignored. Strange.

Has anyone who currently owns an X-Terra 50 tried hunting in pinpoint mode? Is the depth less then, equal to, or greater than the ZERO-DISC mode? Is it difficult to press the PINPOINT button and hold for extended periods of time? I wonder if the Pinpoint button can be modified to be <B>ON</b> for extended periods of time? Or maybe an ON/OFF toggle switch for pinpointing can be added?

Most likely not, but these are questions that I, J in VA, likes to comment about when I purchase a new detector. I try everything I can to see what a detector can do, and cannot do.

Once again, I am not bashing the X-terra 50 as it may seem in this post. It hasn't even arrived yet for me to use. Rest assured though, when it does arrive, I will be posting how I feel about a new detector with a ZERO-DISC mode that has been called an all-metal mode. Oh yeah, I'll comment on the disc mode too. I might even like it and decide the pinpoint button is useless. You never know.

J in VA

 

[BobH]

I think someone, maybe Monte, has tried "pinpoint hunting".

 

[Frank in NH]

n/t

 

[pat (chicago)]

what is the difference between all metal & zero discrimination. it sounds the same to me. please elaborate.
thanks!

 

[Beachcomber]

I think you maybe confusing things. In the old days the All Metal Modes were non-motion All Metal Modes. Hence the need for a Threshold Control. The Xterra All Metal Mode is a Motion All Metal Mode which many manufacturers are going to these days so that they can incorporate TID into the All metal Mode. Motion All Metal Modes do need threshold controls as the threshold is mantianed at a constant level by the electronics. Years ago when the All Metal MOde was Non-motion we also did not have TID in All Metal. I only had the opportunity use an Xterra 50 for about 6 hours total and the Target Audio Response in the All metal Mode is NOT the same as the Target Audio Response in the Discriminate. I am not talking about the tones but the characteristics of the target response so my thoughts and feelings are that the All Metal mode is just that an Motion All Metal Mode..Not a Discrimination Mode with the Discrimination turned all the way down. Oh Pinpoint can be turned on or off so if you want to hunt in Pinpoint Mode you can. It's also a VCO Pinpoint Mode which is extremely accurate.

HH

Beachcomber

 

[Beachcomber]

I found I actually preferred hunting in the All Metal Mode as I liked the Audio Response better than in the Discriminate Mode.

HH

Beachcomber

 

[CWRelichunter]

I based what I said per Monte's comments below from a post he made on this forum dated 11/20/05. I have copied it here in this post. It is below in the bold lettering.

I do believe Monte knows the difference between ZERO-DISC motion modes, and a true blue threshold based All-metal mode. Unless of course he would like to rephrase what he said below?
===================================================================


<b>Understanding Operating Modes: For many I know this won't be difficult to understand, but for some there seems to be confusion about the labeling of "Patterns" on both models, and the All Metal switch on the X-Terra 50.

I'll try to make this simple in 'Monte-speak' explanation:

The X-Terra's are motion based models in their operating or search modes.

The X-Terra 30 offers TWO motion based modes that are selected by using the "Pattern" touch pad. One is labeled 'AM' for All Metal Accept operation. This is a motion discriminate model without any discrimination or rejection. It accepts all metals, ferrous and non-ferrous. It is NOT a 'conventional', threshold-based All Metal mode. In this motion mode you will accept all metal targets and cannot reject any of them.</b>

later on he says.....<b>In addition to these two 'Pattern' modes, which are each totally adjustable by the operator's acceptance or rejection of 18 segments, the X-Terra 50 also has an All Metal mode. What makes the '50' different from the '30' is that the X-Terra 50 has an additional "shortcut" button to select the All Metal (zero discrimination) motion mode. Pressing this All Metal shortcut button will switch you to or from the All Metal motion mode or back to the Pattern mode (1 or 2) that you were using. This gives you two user adjustable pattern modes and one all metal, non-adjustable pattern mode.</b>




J in Va (aka Mr. All-Metal mode)

 

[CWRelichunter]

n/t

 

[Digger]

No ignorance shown Pat. I think maybe J in Va is confusing all-metal mode with threshold characteristics. In many detectors made today, all metal mode does not offer a threshold tone. All-metal mode simply means that the detector won't reject any metals while operating in that mode. It has nothing to do with a threshold tone in one mode and not having it in another. Technology has changed the way we can use our machines. In years past, the all-metal mode with most manufacturers was a non-motion mode that offered a threshold tone. Being non-motion is why you needed to maintain the threshold sound. The Xterra is a motion detector, except in the pinpoint mode. Therefore, it is considered a silent search detector. As Beachcomber pointed out so clearly, the reason manufacturers use motion all-metal is so they can provide accurate Target ID. On the X-Terra, you get target ID in both discriminate modes as well as all-metal mode. You will not, however, get target ID in the pinpoint non-motion mode. As well, you will not hear a consistend threshold sound in all metal or discrimination modes. However, you will hear the threshold sound in the non-motion pinpoint mode. Let me give you an example. Pass the coil of an X-Terra over a quarter and you will get a conductivity reading that has been assigned a 40 on the X-30 or a 42 on the X-50. When you press the pinpoint button, you will find that you now have a threshold sound and you are in non-motion mode. You will also find that the target ID number is "locked on" the number represented by the target. In this example, it is a 40 on the X-30 or a 42 on the X-50. Even if you wave a nickel under the coil, the TID will not change to the nickel equivalent. It stays at either 40 or 42, depending on the model you are using. Once you press the pinpoint button again, and resume either all-metal or discrimination mode, you will see the nickel now registers a 12. I suspect that when J in VA didn't hear the threshold tone in the all-metal mode, he thought the the all-metal mode was simply a zero discrimination mode. Frankly, with the exception of threshold tone, like you, I don't see much difference between all-metal and zero discrimination either. Both modes accept all-metals and neither mode rejects any. And like I said at the beginning, many manufacturers only offer the threshold tone in a non-motion detector mode. I have tried using my X-Terras while operating in Pinpoint mode. In addition to not getting any target ID information, I have found the depth of detection to be less than when using the all-metal or pattern modes. Personally, I like to run mine in either all metal, or in a pattern that only rejects ferrous metals. HH Randy

 

[Digger]

as to what you consider to be the difference between an all-metal mode and a zero discrimination mode. The X-Terra is a motion based, silent-search detector. The pinpoint mode is non-motion. If a detector offering all-metal mode AND a detector offering zero discrimination mode both allow acceptance of all metals and the rejection of none, what do you consider the difference between these two detectors, other than the threshold tone? Just curious. Thanks HH Randy

 

[CWRelichunter]

Very debateable issue I know. Just my experience depending upon the detector used.

There IS a difference.

J in VA

 

[Ralph Bryant]

Beachcomber and Digger are right. Non-motion "silent-search" modes normally do not offer an audible threshold for reasons of calibration of the TID feature.

But the advantage of having an audible threshold is to hear very minor variations in the level of the threshold on fringe depth or very small targets. In some types of hunting, relics for instance, that can be a big advantage over straight silent-search. But on the other hand, silent-search "all-metal" is still something beyond what you might consider as "zero-discrimination". As long as the circuits are designed to accept everything across the full 180 degrees of the phase range (- side for ferrous to + side for non-ferrous), then you effectively have ALL METAL acceptance. Where the confusion comes in I think, is that some machines are designed to blank or discriminate low-end ferrous as a matter of their circuit design, so called 120 or 90 type circuits. In that case, zero discrimination still eliminates some of the lower ferrous side signals even with the discrimination turned down all the way.

From a practical point, 180 degree motion-based silent-search all-metal modes will do the same thing that a threshold based 180 no-motion-based all-metal mode will do, with the possible exception of making available the described slight threshold advantage on very deep or very small fringe targets. But either way, they will both accept and signal on all metals.

Just my 2 cents......

Ralph

 

[Ralph Bryant]

Remember too that in a motion-based silent-search all-metal mode, there is still some level of ground balance effect involved. What that means is that although the machine is set for "all-metals", the machine is still silencing the ground effects, which amounts to a low-level discrimination process. In the non-motion threshold based machines, this is not the case, so you can better hear even the relatively faint effects of the ground mineralization that you don't hear in silent-search. And that is really where the advantage of a threshold-based all-metal function comes from......the ability to hear the slightest changes in threshold produced from the very low-level signals.

Ralph

 

[CWRelichunter]

Thanks for your input.


J in VA

 

[Digger]

I hear what you are saying. I also prefer a threshold based detector as I believe I can learn as much by the sound diminishing as I can by it increasing. That is why my XLPro still gets a workout. I guess the best way to prove your 2 - 4" comments would be to make the comparison on a motion based detector that offers threshold tone in both the all-metal mode and the zero discrimination mode. Unfortunately, the X-Terra (and most others currently manufactured) is not able to do that for us. HH Randy

 

[Ralph Bryant]

But with that said, remember that motion-based circuits are primarily designed to eliminate the effects of ground mineralization. If you take a motion-based machine, and then re-introduce the audio threshold, you are basically defeating the purpose of the design in the first place.

I agree completely with you in that audible threshold is an advantage in some types of hunting, and for hearing those faint targets at the fringe ranges of detectability. But target ID and threshold-based no-motion have a problem syncing from the calibration standpoint, unless there is a compensation circuit involved or "auto-track" ground balancing that can keep the signal consistent enough for the TID to remain consistent. We're really comparing apples to oranges in that sense.

I think the VDI design of the Exterras (and most I.D. machines) was directed moreso toward the coin and jewelry hunting market than for ultra deep relic hunting. Most of us realize that I.D. is really only effective to certain depths, and after that it tends to fall on its face. For maximum depth, I.D. machines are usually not the best pick.

Ralph

 

[Ralph Bryant]

I have no doubt there would be some advantage, depth wise, to an audible threshold "IF" all other things were equal as to base performance of the circuit designs. But I doubt the advantage would stretch to more than an inch or two at best.

JMO

 

[Beachcomber]

It may jsut be a matter of semantics or the way it is being explained. I guess we mya just need to ahve someone from Minelab chime in and set the record straight as to whether it is a Mostion DIscriminate Mode with it's Discrimination turned all the way down or if it's a true Motion All Metal Mode as there is a difference.

I think when you finally recieve your Xterra you will be impressed with and like the All Metal Mode maybe even more than it's Discrimination Mode. There is more information in the audio response in the All metal Mode than there is in the Discrimination Mode which is why I liked the All Metal mode better than the Discrimination Mode and I was using it in a fairly trashy park.

I will be interested in eharing you thoughts about it once you have yours and have had a chance to use a little!

HH

Beachcomber

 

[buttondigger]

J,
The xterra 30 did a very good job in Cumberland County red dirt. Very quiet in trash, good depth in bad ground.

 

[Mike Bearden]

But ... I really like using this silent search all metal mode X-Terra 50, after MANY years of using threshold based units it offers the ears a rest and performance. It has proven enough depth ability in most places I hunt to suit me. With the weight "or lack of" and ease of use this detector has, I find it hard to reach for anything else in fear of "maybe" losing a small edge by hearing a threshold.
H.H.
Mike