Buried a minnie... LTD wont find it...

[jbow]

But it is in good company. Neither will the E-TRAC, the T2, the V3, or the Tejon... only the SovereignGT will signal it using the 10" Tornado coil and then only as a null to begin with...

I first posted about this on the Sovereign forum because the GT was the only detector to hit is AT ALL

So... I found a clean spot in my backyard. I checked the spot with the F75 LTD, the Tejon, and the SovereignGT. I checked it in disc and AM with all three. Then I buried a 3ring minnieball at exactly 11". I used my "ground Shark" relic shovel to dig the hole. The hole was about 6" in diameter. When I got down about 8 or 9 inches I hit some charred material, more like shavings or splinters than like coals or chunks. I assume that there was a woods fire or maybe a farmer burned a field at some point in time. I'm pretty sure the yard used to be farmland. Perhaps that little bit of charred material could be having an impact. Plus our dirt here is red iron bearing clay.

I put the dirt back in the hole in four parts, tamping down each part, finally the top plug went back in and the minnie was GONE... I tried to hit it with the LTD in every mode, mid and high sens, all different tones, disc and AM... nothing. I was using the 11" coil and I will try the 5" coil. The T2 signalled something but it signalled something pretty much everywhere... nothing certain or repeatable. I tried the V3 using the D2 coil and lots of settings, high sens, mid sens, recovery delay 40, 100. 120, 200; ground filters from 10khz down to 5khz... swung slow, swung fast... nothing... nada. Tried the E-TRAC with the Pro coil.. nothing, tried ferrous/2 tone and conductive/multi-tone, tried auto+3 sens, manual 24 sens, manual 30 sens, deep on fast off. swung fast, swung slow... nothing nada.. not even a null. tried iron mask open... nothing...

SovereignGT... sens at 1:00, swinging medium slow... slow enough to keep a steady threshold, when I passed over the mnnie I got a null, no tone but a null. I got the null consistantly AND.. when I stopped to "check the null" witha wiggle... the number began to rise and the tone came up. It actually hit the correct TID of 173 once but it mostly would rise with the wiggle up to around 150. The top TID number on the GT is 180... that is darn goode!!

The Tejon did something that I don't yet understand... it would signal about 6" past the target in any direction but was quiet over the target. I was in all metal but not VCO. It was almost like the opposite of what you will sometimes get when a detector will signal a good hit if you swing between two pieces of iron that are maybe 10 or 12 inches apart... right in the middle you get that good tone and number but it is just the iron doing something. I don't know what you call it or even what it is.. I just know two pieces of iron will do that. It was like the opposite of that with no signal over the target but 6" swinging after passing over the target in any direction, not swinging up to the target... only after passing over it.

So... this is something that the LTD would not do for me that I thought it should do. If the GT will do it why wont the LTD? I tried DE, JE, PF, BP, CL, and All Metal modes... I tried everything I could think of... fast swing in DE, JE, and PF.. slow and fast in BP... really slow in CL.. I even tried static AM mode... nothing... nada. I'll let you know if the 5" coil makes a difference. I am going to a different part of the yard and bury an identical minnie at 8" to see how that goes. FWIW, in this same part of the yard I have buried and lost a quarter. I think I get iffy signals in the spot but I didn't mark it well, I had no idea it would vanish... it was about 10" too. I know exactly where this minnie is though... 84 inches from a fence post. No EMI back here, some on one side of the house from underground utilities but none in the back.

Any ideas???

Julien

 

[BuckeyeBrad]

I have a list of things to say but first, go back out and compare the GB numeric measures as near the target as you can get without the target possibly being able to affect the GB point and next GB OVER the buried minnie. Compare and note any differences and report back. Thanks Julien.

 

[jbow]

It was GB in the low 50s IIRC, I tried several higher GB numbers because I was concerned that with the GB so close to the bullets TID number that it might have an effect on it... and disc it out but the higher numbers didn't help. It did GB within a few numbers of the target TID though if that is what you are wondering... i'll check it tomorrow a couple of places close and right on it.

Thanks!

Julien

 

[BuckeyeBrad]

I'll wait to hear your results then. ALSO would you please bring us up to date re: this thread you started and then never followed up on?http://www.findmall.com/read.php?37,1182855,1182855#msg-1182855

 

[Daniel Tn]

Fresh buried targets and air tests mean squat. My test garden has been there for about 5 years now, and when I first buried the targets there, you couldn't really get good signals on the targets. Now they've settled or started to halo a little, and I can go back with the same machines and find the targets there.

But as far as the F-75s ability to go deep in red iron dirt...well just watch that one YouTube video where my wife digs a minie in it, at around 13-14 inches deep. It's capable of doing it, BUT you gotta be on your game and understand what it's telling you. I personally feel that the PI machines are better suited for this kind of dirt. I've done gone back to too many sites with my TDI and dug way too many bullets and buttons to be coincidence.

I may get a lot of flack for saying this on the Fisher forum, but for my own personal use, I have found favor with the V3. I can get better depth with it, and set it up for any situation that might arise. The F75 has been really good to me, and Fisher has even put one of my videos on their website for "how to" which is really awesome. But that V3 is a very heavy hitter and has taken its place in my arsenal as my #1 vlf machine. Change the setting under "search audio" to All Metal...bump your all metal sensitivity up to around 80-90. Set your RX Gain to around 10 or whatever is stable, and put it in single frequency 7.5...and I believe you'll be hearing your bullet. Mine will do it in my test garden on a button buried at 9" and I can hold the coil several inches above the ground and still get it. The F75 wont.

 

[jbow]

I like the V3 too. I have a little trouble with the weight using the D3 coil and I am just not a fan of concentric coils. I think I need to try the 6x10.

I went out today and rechecked the area and I think I may have some masking going on. I will post it in another post above because Brad was asking me about it.. read there please..

Thanks .. BTW, are you anywhere near Spring City? We are probably going to spend a little time up there this summer.

Julien

 

[jbow]

OK... I went back out there with the LTD. I did the GB and a foot away on three sides the GB is 52, on one side it is 51, right over the target it is 54. Five feet away most of the GB readings are 50. The minnie reads 56 in the air.
I did the Fe02 reading and to any side a foot away it is .3 (like most places I hunt) but right over the target it is 1.0

I think I may have picked a bad spot. Do those readings tell you anything?
A minnie reads 12-33 on the E-TRAC clad dimes/silver dimes/clad quarters/silver quarters read 12-44/12-45/12-46/12-47.
On the SovereignGT the minnie reads 173 out of 180 quarters and dimes and washers read 180.
It is interesting that the GT did hit it with a null then wiggled in a good number though...

Anyway, I think I am going to move it tomorrow but will first wait to see what anyone has to say.

Thanks,

Julien

 

[Scully]

Or some other type of negative mineral. They results you got with the Tejon indicate that to me. What it does is it drives the audio negative, you hear nothing, but when the coil clears the target the fast retune pulls the audio back up to normal and you get a slight over-shoot, sorta like "boing". You cant seem to pinpoint, but get audio off to the sides. That might explain why notining is picking it up, but not sure why the GT handles it so well. Maybe the multi-frequency.

 

[markg]

That's a logical reason Scully.

 

[jbow]

I'll move it. I don't think i'm going down 11" anymore... I never find anything that deep around here anyway. With all the rocks, iron, and red clay I think 8" is probably stretching it.

I'll let you know how it goes. I may go into the woods beside the house and use undisturbed soil. Maybe one there and one in the side yard... maybe.

Thanks for the help!

Julien

 

[Mike Hillis]

Julien,

The reason you can't pick up the bullet is because the ground signal is hiding it.

How do detectors pass target signals and hide the ground signal that is hundreds of times stronger? By the faster rate of change of the target signal.
Normally the ground signal is a strong, but slow changing signal. The faster changing target signal is picked up and passed through to the amps and filters (basic)

In your case you have disturbed the ground. Highly disturbed it based upon your discription on how you filled your hole. Your ground signal over the target is no longer a slow changing signal, it is now a fast changing signal. A very strong fast changing signal based upon your FE304 meter reading, that you also have cancelled out with a ground balance. Hence the hidden bullet.

Thats why test beds have to age so long. The ground matrix has to re-establish itself into a unbroken slow changing signal.

You reported that the Sovereign hit on it but it nulled out first. Sovereigns are in a league apart. You probally had to wiggle over it quite a bit to bring it up. One of the advantages of the sovereign as compared to others is that the Sovereign 'wiggle' along with the broad band spectrum freq setup allows you to basically stay in one position and isolate both that new disturbed ground signal and the target signal.

Now, some ground is so mild there isn't really a ground signal to speak of. I can tell someone is hunting in mild ground when they say they buried something at 10" and detector so and so pick it up with room to spare. That is mild ground.

Best way, if you have to do it, is put the bullet at the bottom of a unbroken plug. You might have a chance to pick it then. Just depends on how disturbed the ground gets

Hope that helps.
Mike

PS...and this was my 2000th post.

 

[bugg]

n/t

 

[jbow]

I am going to dig it up, replace it with a quarter or something (since I already have the hole and quarters are much more common than minnies). I'll get a larger shovel, dig the best unbroken plug that I can and re-bury the bullet and a bit more shallow. I am going to shoot for 8".

I have a rotary hammer drill with some long 1/2" bits I think I have one that is 18"... I wonder if it would be better if I drill at an angle down to the depth I want, then push the minnie down into the hole with a dowel. It wouldn't be laying flat then but I guess in the real world not many are laying right on their side.
Do you think that drilling might be a better way to bury it?

I will try both digging an unbroken plug (a larger one with a regular shovel) and placing a bullet at 8" and I will try drilling at an angle and inserting a bullet. I'll try and place them both at the same angle in the ground. I'll check that the GB and Fe03 is the same at both spots... one problem is finding a clean spot. If I sanitize it then I have defeated the experiment by disturbing the ground.
I'll let you know what I find out. Thanks for the help!!!

Julien

 

[Cache Man]

Julien just dig a hole whatever depth you want BUT don't put the bullet or quarter under the plug, put it in the side WALL of the undisturbed dirt without losing dirt out of the side wall, its easy with coins, if the dirt is dry then water the day before. HH

 

[jbow]

What if I dig a hole and fill it with water to soften the sides. I had thought of trying to insert a bullet into the ground in the wall of a hole. I guess if I dig a large enough hole to work in I can make a small bullet sized tunnel going sideways at whatever depth I want and maybe get the bullet pushed over a foot from the edge of the hole... lot of work but it's my yard and I can do it... i'll give it a try!!
Thanks
Julien