Can someone explain why no discrimination?

[kochevar]

I see many of you set up your machines with no discrimination and I would like to understand the reason behind doing so. I have tried it and I get LOTS of iron target noise, which I find over loading to my hearing. I would think that adding a few lines of discrimination to this sort of set up would make it more comfortable. Would I being defeating this type of setting if I did add some discrimination? Also, what is the benefit of no discrimination over say a typical coin pattern that is adjusted to make it loose, thus letting more iron into the pattern? Thanks ahead of time for your help.

In Liberty,

Jim

 

[Dave Fisher]

Hi Jim,
I always hunt with an open screen, No Disc, I just like to hear everything under the coil,
just dont want to miss a chirp nex to what would be a Null.

Regards Dave.

 

[Big Boys Hobbies]

I see many of you set up your machines with no discrimination and I would like to understand the reason behind doing so. I have tried it and I get LOTS of iron target noise, which I find over loading to my hearing. I would think that adding a few lines of discrimination to this sort of set up would make it more comfortable. Would I being defeating this type of setting if I did add some discrimination? Also, what is the benefit of no discrimination over say a typical coin pattern that is adjusted to make it loose, thus letting more iron into the pattern? Thanks ahead of time for your help.

In Liberty,

Jim

Hi Jim!

If you are new to the machine or detecting you might be in audio overload with no descrim. It does take some practice but to me well worth it. You can hear more of whats going on under the coil and maybe the type targets your dealing with. In no time you will ignore the grunts and listen for the good solid repeatable hits.

There is no right or wrong on the subject. Just opinions.

 

[pspr]

On the other hand, some have reported that the CTX performs better with some discrimination rather than a totally open screen.

 

[firefighter254]

I think The cts 3030 does perform better with a little discrimination i was using an open screen but the noise and falsing on rusty nails was ridiculous with a little discrimination she runs much smoother i discrim out from the bottom of the pattern up to the 30FE line but you can use what works for you. even using a little discrimination at the bottom right corner works good also good luck

 

[Gonehunting]

Its just a matter of preference.. the machine will smoke with some or none. Happy Hunting

 

[TIM CLARK]

Hey Jim as you now I am new to the Minelab detector I have been using Gonehunting setting and for the Golf Course it work great on the 1918 merc I got at 11inch it hammer it. Now over in the park I run it some but mostly in the coin setting with some disc.

 

[earthmansurfer]

Its just a matter of preference.. the machine will smoke with some or none. Happy Hunting

Evan - I'm not sure that all modes smoke equally. Ok, I am just talking testing with coins and iron (not real world targets - just a few) and 50 CO mode with disc (with what firefighter said) did better than Combine mode with or without disc (both in ferrous coin or high trash - but ferrous coin is my early preference). So, disc was one thing but also the sound profile was another thing. I'd like to know what your testing shows on signal comparisons. It's too early for me to say definitively but thus far, running 50 CO with disc (in tests with iron near coins) has been better than an open Combine screen and the thing that shocks me is it hasn't been close. I am being honest about mentioning "in tests" because natural in ground targets might really change things.

I'm playing with minimal, moderate and no disc to see what really works. I'm not going to make any real conclusions till I can get some real world targets (that are tough signals in iron - that is key) and then I'll post the results. So many variables though. I'm sure by sharing we will all learn a lot here.

We are all learning the machine now and I hope everyone sets up a few screens / profiles to compare signals as I'm not sure there is a best screen, per say. Meaning, perhaps my somewhat iron mineralized ground and the CTX with 50 Conductive is better. Not sure yet, but it's fun finding out.

Fun fun,
Albert

 

[Smack]

The amount of signals and tones can be overwhelming on the open screen. It was just a matter of adjusting the tones of the iron from high to a low grunt that helped me. I to like to know whats under the coil, and I always wonder what I am missing when it nulls. That said, after seeing earthmansurfer's comment about 50 CO with disc beats no disc in combine has me wanting to do some testing.

Earthmansurfer If you could expand on your two different setups? I would like to test this in an old park.

 

[earthmansurfer]

Smack - I agree, the amount of signals can be overwhelming with an open screen (though you can get the iron tone on the CTX low via a tonal change). And, even if you can handle it (I can but only for a time!) you are still in danger of missing a good signal amongst the iron grunts (in combine). Of course you can't run an open screen in 50 CO as the iron hits like coins, tone wise. Anway, if you can handle it or not is not the question, my tests (again only tests) show some disc is better than no disc. So, we should investigate this more imo.

I am still playing. I started with basically running disc from 28 on down all across the screen. Then I went to 28 on down from the right part of the screen (to 33CO). Now, with no more falsing I am running something very similar to what Larry is running. Basically, I run disc on the right side of the screen (CO 33 on to the right) and from the 4th line on the screen on down - the screen has 4 lines on it - (think it's around 31 - just line up your disc with that bottom thin line.) So, far it sounds about the same as 28 on down across the entire screen (If iron hits above that line, then just disc it out - customize for you - quick to do in the field). I am also running 1 or 2 (still playing) lines of disc across the top (for wrap around, which oddly enough I got from bottle caps with no disc!), from the very top left to right (up to 33 to allow for large silver to the right of that, per Evan's and others findings). I have the right edge (50CO) disc'd on up to the top and just one over to the left. (not sure about that last one).

Don't take my settings (or anyone's) so literally though. The iron in your area is different. Basically, I get the feeling to tweak what you see for what sounds good for your areas - just like many have done with dial disc's - just disc out the majority or iron when they get to a site. I think it's safe to keep cutting it back to you no longer hear iron AND THEN compare that to e.g. 28 on down all over the bottom with disc and see if there is any difference WITH TARGETS AT DEPTH. There may be (and I think so) no difference with shallower targets, but as Larry mentioned, there might be some difference at depth.

Remember (not that I know, but with a new machine I think it's important not to settle onto settings to early) - Me, Evan and a few others have found that with the same settings 50CO and Combine are NOT THE SAME underneath the hood. We have to investigate this further via disc, recovery fast on/off, ferrous coin vs. high trash, etc. Of note - I am finding that recovery fast on, on the CTX does not clip sounds as much as the E-Trac did. The VID is less accurate but again, better than on the E-Trac. I am starting to run recovery fast on as it seems to really affect things, so far anyway.

Hope that was helpful,
Albert

 

[Gonehunting]

Its just a matter of preference.. the machine will smoke with some or none. Happy Hunting

Evan - I'm not sure that all modes smoke equally. Ok, I am just talking testing with coins and iron (not real world targets - just a few) and 50 CO mode with disc (with what firefighter said) did better than Combine mode with or without disc (both in ferrous coin or high trash - but ferrous coin is my early preference). So, disc was one thing but also the sound profile was another thing. I'd like to know what your testing shows on signal comparisons. It's too early for me to say definitively but thus far, running 50 CO with disc (in tests with iron near coins) has been better than an open Combine screen and the thing that shocks me is it hasn't been close. I am being honest about mentioning "in tests" because natural in ground targets might really change things.

I'm playing with minimal, moderate and no disc to see what really works. I'm not going to make any real conclusions till I can get some real world targets (that are tough signals in iron - that is key) and then I'll post the results. So many variables though. I'm sure by sharing we will all learn a lot here.

We are all learning the machine now and I hope everyone sets up a few screens / profiles to compare signals as I'm not sure there is a best screen, per say. Meaning, perhaps my somewhat iron mineralized ground and the CTX with 50 Conductive is better. Not sure yet, but it's fun finding out.

Fun fun,
Albert

Your right Albert.. It all depends where you are hunting, soil type, trash type, emi, and so on.. but I think the CTX is definitely miles ahead of anything that I have used.. Smokin! lol no mirrors..

 

[Tom_in_CA]

When people with explorers, or in this case, the ctx, etc..... go around opting to go ferrous and screen wide-open (nothing edited out), it is not really operating with "no discrimination". Because think of it: they are still getting audio information, right? Ie.: the higher the conductivity, the higher the tone, and so forth. And iron, of course, being the lowest grunt tone. So in reality, we ARE operating with "discrimination", when we hunt in this fashion. And we would routinely pass iron, for instance. And you may elect to pass surface foil, or shallow zinc, or any other such fashion of "discrminating". You're simply doing it with your ears, rather than making the machine silence out over it.

If you REALLY want to know what "no discrimination" is like, put the machine in all-metal pinpoint mode, take off any cursor ID function, and presto, THAT'S "no discrimination". Kinda like the old days of VLF all-metal mode, or using a beach pulse machine. THAT would be "no discrimination".

 

[Buried Crap NJ]

Smack - I agree, the amount of signals can be overwhelming with an open screen (though you can get the iron tone on the CTX low via a tonal change). And, even if you can handle it (I can but only for a time!) you are still in danger of missing a good signal amongst the iron grunts (in combine). Of course you can't run an open screen in 50 CO as the iron hits like coins, tone wise. Anway, if you can handle it or not is not the question, my tests (again only tests) show some disc is better than no disc. So, we should investigate this more imo.

I am still playing. I started with basically running disc from 28 on down all across the screen. Then I went to 28 on down from the right part of the screen (to 33CO). Now, with no more falsing I am running something very similar to what Larry is running. Basically, I run disc on the right side of the screen (CO 33 on to the right) and from the 4th line on the screen on down - the screen has 4 lines on it - (think it's around 31 - just line up your disc with that bottom thin line.) So, far it sounds about the same as 28 on down across the entire screen (If iron hits above that line, then just disc it out - customize for you - quick to do in the field). I am also running 1 or 2 (still playing) lines of disc across the top (for wrap around, which oddly enough I got from bottle caps with no disc!), from the very top left to right (up to 33 to allow for large silver to the right of that, per Evan's and others findings). I have the right edge (50CO) disc'd on up to the top and just one over to the left. (not sure about that last one).

Don't take my settings (or anyone's) so literally though. The iron in your area is different. Basically, I get the feeling to tweak what you see for what sounds good for your areas - just like many have done with dial disc's - just disc out the majority or iron when they get to a site. I think it's safe to keep cutting it back to you no longer hear iron AND THEN compare that to e.g. 28 on down all over the bottom with disc and see if there is any difference WITH TARGETS AT DEPTH. There may be (and I think so) no difference with shallower targets, but as Larry mentioned, there might be some difference at depth.

Remember (not that I know, but with a new machine I think it's important not to settle onto settings to early) - Me, Evan and a few others have found that with the same settings 50CO and Combine are NOT THE SAME underneath the hood. We have to investigate this further via disc, recovery fast on/off, ferrous coin vs. high trash, etc. Of note - I am finding that recovery fast on, on the CTX does not clip sounds as much as the E-Trac did. The VID is less accurate but again, better than on the E-Trac. I am starting to run recovery fast on as it seems to really affect things, so far anyway.

Hope that was helpful,
Albert

OH now I am understanding. I was asking the same question in another post and just wasn't getting it.I was curious why the ferous line was so far down on some programs and when asked here why open screen. I get it. I have been hunting combine tones open screen ferous line 24 but I see the benifit to lower that line so iron will not null and instead give a low tone of your choice.Much better to hear a familar tone then a null (blank)

 

[nil]

I have to agree with earthmansurfer, there's something about the 50 CO tones and ferrous coin, with deep off, i'm getting some ridiculous depths, i've tried variations of an elaborate discrimination which eliminates the majority of the pull tabs and crap from my junk box, to wide open, so far, the best combination i've tested is discriminating out everything from FE 25 down and FE 5 up, not sure if it has something to do with having the 20 Fe lines open, in a row. I don't know why, but the depth is outstanding, have never seen the 10-12" targets on screen before.

 

[kochevar]

Thanks to everyone for all the info. I will work with some of the suggustions and see what I can come up with that works well and I like listening too. I have often wondered what I was missing when my explorer nulled out. Thanks again and good luck.

 

[earthmansurfer]

Buried Crap NJ (Still laughing at that. ehehe) - Not sure I follow your post but I like the ferrous line on an open screen at 28 or so in case coins bounce down there from my iron mineralized ground. That was an E-Trac thing and I don't see coins bouncing with the ferrous coin setting on. I think the vast majority of iron hits below 31 or so - so, there is no need to have the iron line too high.

I find the CTX likes a little disc, but that is preliminary. It doesn't null as long as the E-Trac as it is quicker. Nulling is what it should do, not a bad thing, the problem with the older FBS machines is that the null was longer than an equivalent low tone in e.g. TTF.

nil - Great to hear. I am still wanting to compare a minimally disc'd pattern with more what you are saying. I am curious about depth. Once I get to a spot with deeper targets I will. Thanks for the information.
Have you compared that disc pattern you are getting depth on with a more minimal one? (e.g. - Like me and Larry are running).
Further it is interesting what you surmise regarding having 20 lines of Fe open and maybe giving more depth. On deeper targets it would be easy and nice to test this! Thx.

Albert

 

[nil]

Earthmansurfer - Like everbody else, i'm still trying different variations, I did notice on a few deep targets, the less discriminated pattern was difficult to pinpoint and centre up on the target, combination of adjacent targets and mineralization kept me circling to try to relocate the better signal. These are still preliminary observations, lately been focusing on a max discrimination pattern, but its losing momentum fast.

BTW, great job on the videos, as always, very educational.

 

[martygene]

to earthmansurfer: is it possible to show us a screen shot of what you are talking about?
Thanks

 

[ronfin]

I'm hunting in Ferrous-Coin, with GH's audio set-up, and using zero discrimination. Yesterday I found 3 IH's and a 1936 WLH. Today I found two more IH's. I guess I could use some discrimination, but why? The low iron tones aren't that overwhelming, and I'd rather be able to hear a coin that's touching iron rather than take a chance the machine nulls on it if the iron is big. Just my .02

 

[Gonehunting]

I'm hunting in Ferrous-Coin, with GH's audio set-up, and using zero discrimination. Yesterday I found 3 IH's and a 1936 WLH. Today I found two more IH's. I guess I could use some discrimination, but why? The low iron tones aren't that overwhelming, and I'd rather be able to hear a coin that's touching iron rather than take a chance the machine nulls on it if the iron is big. Just my .02

Thats good to hear. EMS might be on something with the discrim, I am checking it too and even checking it against the Ground coin setting. I really think where you hunt soil/trash type is going to be the big difference here. . I'm still not sure how soil types/trash types might affect the set up. So far where I hunt it has been deadly..but not much of a variety where I hunt or should I say where I choose to hunt. I have yet to take it to a park, because I just don't hunt parks....just an fyi I hunt mostly older pre 1930's yards that have been very few landowners and try not to hunt rental properties where there is a more of a chance for modern trash..