Combined Ferrous Getting Double Signals Question/Help

[Smack]

I went for my first hunt with the CTX. I have an Etrac and hunt in TTF. I set the CTX up in Ferrous/Combined and Off I went. I noticed that the Numbers displayed show a nice 12 44 and the audio tone is good. On the screen I see Iron target in lower right of screen I also see the 12 44 target. When I dig these I get a nail.

I was just wondering why I am seeing two targets one iron one coin and then the 12 44 for coin range. When I did there is only one target.

Is the CTX just seeing the signal from the nail as both? Should I just use Ferrous and skip the combined. My goal is to set the CTX up like TTF was in the Etrac at least in one of my modes. I do like the idea of Ferrous/Combined and setting the tones ect.

So far I think the CTX separates much better than the Etrac and goes deeper than the Etrac. I hit a rolled up, just larger than BB sized foil at 9 inches and it hit hard. That is pretty darn good. The unit is nicely balanced and does feel lighter than the Etrac. One thing I am not sure if I like is the Pinpoint button is at an awkward angle to push and does not feel natural to hold for very long.

I noticed than when extending the shaft to the proper length when I was ready to hunt, that it seemed sticky and was a little tough to get it to extend out. Anyone else having that problem and what did you do to fix it.

Thanks
Steve

 

[kochevar]

I was having the same thing happen last evening. Two target signals, digging one target. I switch to a modifyed coin pattern and it stopped. It had me wondering. Glad you asked the question. Hope someone can explain what is happening.

 

[Smack]

I think I watched Earthmasters recent videos and noticed that same target information. Would be nice to have an explanation. It may be that the "best" data is being shown. Like it seems that we probably wound not want to dig iron, but a coin we would so in place of having to show both vdi's it shows the best. If that is what is happening I can adapt. But after digging and only finding one target it makes me wonder.

If anyone has an explanation I would just like to know. Thanks.

 

[Smack]

I just watched Earthmasters video again and it says in pictures what I was noticing as I hunted last night. It seems to be a problem.

Look at his last post with three videos. It is the middle one and from 1 minute on shows the issue.

 

[earthmansurfer]

Here is the video. Before you guys mentioned it I was thinking "Hey, that is what I found in testing the other day!" LOL Hey, is earthmaster a promotion over earthmansurfer ? ;-)

First, Notice that the falsing on the nail happened when running the screen open but did NOT happen with minimal disc. So, you might want to switch to minimal disc (just have two patterns, one open and one minimally disc'd) as a check. Also, in the bottle cap video the same thing happened with an open screen and ferrous coin, running disc stopped the "good" response on the bottle cap. So, thus far, running some disc seems to be the solution.

Second, when switching to high trash, the falsing also stopped. AND that was with an open screen, so a good confirmation.
Third, if you turn 90 degrees the falsing stops in ferrous coin (that is another check to add). That has it's own danger with 2 way coin hits. I'm sure there will be a way to check to see if they are indeed nails.

My last comments were just to be careful with ferrous coin. I'm still going to run it as I haven't been digging iron and it's been unmasking very well for me. We'll see.

A little humor - Perhaps ferrous coin just makes ferrous things sound like coins.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylUf0mKzw74[/video]

 

[Smack]

I think I will still call you earthmaster!!

Thanks for the detailed info on getting ctx functional.

It is interesting that with etrac FTT with open screen stopped the falsing on nails and using a little discrimination gave you falsing.
Now with ctx it is the other way around. In heavy iron as you know you can get so much nulling using a little discrimination you can miss good signals. Maybe the ctx is so much faster to recover using discrimination will be a benefit.

thanks for the info, I enjoy the videos

 

[jimzilla]

I tried ferrous-coin and I really didnt like the results. I also didnt like constantly seeing a VDI number on the screen as I guess the ground was causing some kind of signal. This doesnt happen with high trash. The false signals are a problem but you have to dig them. I recently dug two silver quarters from a questionable target response. In many of these cases I dug up nails but in 2 of them silver quarters.

 

[SwampeR]

Not just nails here getting 12/40's on iron also especially if it is round.

 

[Smack]

I went out tonight again and did some testing. It was frustrating getting all the 12:40's and high tones on the iron. I tested it in fairly clean ground and I tested it in bad nail infested ground. To give you some idea of how bad it was, if I discriminated out Iron the detector was in a state of null 99% of the time. I like those areas because most people will just walk away. I will keep tweaking to so if I can figure something that will work. The high trash was not something that I thought of. WIll have to give that a try. I still would like to know why it falses off the iron at 12:40 so much. The Etrac was pretty solid through these places. I could at least hunt and if I heard a little chirp and went over it again the iron bonk would take over or it would keep chirping for a good target to dig. I am sure however that as I spend more time with it, I will find a way to make it hunt like I like to hunt.

Has anyone noticed than if Pinpoint says normal, it actually performs the opposite.

 

[earthmansurfer]

Smack - I'm curious regarding the nulling. Another poster helped me out to get nulling to be minimal. Even though the CTX is much faster than the E-Trac, if your sensitivity is hot, too hot (even without falsing) it will null more. Try finding a level where the nulling is shorter for your ground. Here is the post from another forum regarding nulling as I didn't think senstivity played as large a role in it. (The question may be - How much is depth affected. Depends I guess on the level and conditions.)

Albert,
Figuring out sensitivity is very tricky. +3 sensitivity or 30 sensitivity can be used in most detectable locations. The coil speed must be very slow so you can hear the hum/threshold. I have used the SE pro for several years and preferred 24-28. If you want to cover a decent amount of ground you don't want +3 or 29-30.

I have found dimes at 8" and penny's at 10" with 28 on the SE pro. I have found deeper with an 18" excel coil. With the CTX, the threshold is much more constant at 28 for identical ground conditions-due to a faster processor. If the threshold is not audible, the processor can't keep up with the coil movements and is simply not receiving signals. The SE pro blanked out frequently with high sensitivity in highly mineralized soil or soil with a lot or iron. Thus the sensitivity needed to be lowered. The cone narrows and deepens with higher sensitivity. The CTX manages sensitivity very well with an improved processor especially in mineralized soil. The processor is "identical" according to the specs on Minelab's website. However it is a newer version (3 years after the E-trac). The faster processor can "think/determine" what is in the soil much faster with better accuracy. Signals are sent more frequently with a faster processor. The processor doesn't change the signal strength. The depth is minimally better.

For example, recently I went to a central park that had been hunted for over 30 years and produced hundreds of 1800s coins with the SE pro and E-trac. The mineralization was very high. Sensitivity was set to 26. Any higher, and the threshold was not audible. My first trip to the park with the CTX resulted in several old coin found near large iron objects. The slower processors can not determine that a coin is near iron. The machine blanked out. The SE pro even had trouble with dimes near nails. The CTX doesn't. The CTX processor can tell that a dime is near a rusty nail, just a nail, or just a dime.

Brian

 

[WestTn]

I can confirm Earthman's findings on my own CTX 3030 with Ferrous Coin enabled. Double Falsing with a positive reading in the 12:40 range and a red diamond in the bottom right corner indicating large ferrous. After switching to High Trash,the falsing stops. Thanks for posting these findings and to help me confirm that I was constantly chasing good targets that do not exist when running Ferrous Coin. Looking forward to ML including this fix in the next software update hopefully.
WestTn

 

[Smack]

Good insight from all.

I will have to try the decreased sensitivity. I went out today again and hunted a ski resort. I hit it once before and cleaned up the front parking area. The resort was nice enough to push all the goodies into a neat pile next to and over the ditch. I let it set for two years and decided since this was a trashy area with many coins mixed in, it would be a good place to practice.

I tried "EarthMaster's" tip on using high trash mode. It did take away the falsing 12:40 when it hit iron and actually hunted great through all the junk. After a little while I became tired of the 50 different sounds and since there was allot of iron that was hitting high and often I switched back to Ferrous combined 4 tone that I had set up before. I realized that the audio was hitting correctly and I would only look at the screen to see if I wanted to dig if I had a higher tone. All the iron was bonking in the low tone I set it to. Using this method I did very well, and enjoyed the hunt just like with the Etrac, with one exception. The CTX SMOKES on target separation and how fast it processes each target. It is freaking crazy speedy. I really liked that part, as you can tell. I switched back and forth throughout the day and ended up liking the Ferrous combo 4 tone best. I am very happy that this little issue is behind me. I prefer to listen as I hunt and only look at the screen when the audio talks to me. There are times when I did have two targets close together and would get a mixed tone but that was pretty easy to figure out.

Here is my collection of stuff from the hunt. It was a nice day to hike up the mountain and a bonus to find the coins.

I also used the wireless set up. It was great. Really enjoyed the freedom of movement. No audio lag at all. Very nice way to go. Forgot I had to charge it first, but using the car charger setup It was ready to go when I arrived at the ski resort.

Regarding the false TID info, I am sure they will figure that out but not an issue at this point for me.

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[pspr]

Nice finds. I guess most people at a ski resort have their gloves on so they don't lose many rings.

 

[Smack]

Probably so, You can find them sometimes in the parking lots, or where they might have outside lunch and then put some tanning lotion on. I also think cold hands and a loose ring can equal a drop and I have had those here in town. No luck for me on rings yesterday.

 

[spdnj]

So how is ferrous coin a benefit?

 

[earthmansurfer]

So how is ferrous coin a benefit?

Ferrous coin seems to up average Fe numbers. I'm sure it does more than that, using some variables, what if's, etc. but that is what I observe switching between ferrous coin and high trash.

The advantage is in iron, it helps to pull out coins that might have a lower Fe number otherwise (I think). Still early in the process. As I mentioned in other threads, mostly from my testing,
it seems to work better with discrimination (I run 28 down).

Albert

 

[jimzilla]

I think it totally depends on the soil. I personally dont like it but maybe it doesnt work that great in my soil

 

[Smack]

Ferrous Coin helps in the heavy iron areas. I set the FE two or four tones. Set the iron to a low tone and anything 11 or less on FE scale gives me a good sound. Keeps me from hearing so many high tones while i hunt and is easier for me to concentrate.

 

[Reeseb]

Ferrous Coin helps in the heavy iron areas. I set the FE two or four tones. Set the iron to a low tone and anything 11 or less on FE scale gives me a good sound. Keeps me from hearing so many high tones while i hunt and is easier for me to concentrate.

I'm just an armchair CTX3030 user due to my recent surgery, but it's looking like the exagerrated CO values in FE-Coin is causing a lot of iron falsing.

 

[Smack]

You might be correct on that Reeseb. Its funny though that when there is a good target confirmed by digging, that I still see the fe target as well. When the tone is straight iron grunt and shows the two targets on the screen, it is usually just iron. If the tone is good and I can see the coin signal and the iron target signal it has been a coin. Would be nice to have minelab guru tell us what they have found and why it happens. This must have been noted by the experts as they were testing the CTX prior to production.