Comparison testing... my views

[Carl-NC]

First of all, yes, I work for White's, and Larry was a Vision field tester. But I have not, and do not, ask anything of Larry that is partial towards White's or Vision. He is free to do and say as he wants.

I understand some of the arguments against comparison testing, but it doesn't matter... it needs to be discussed. People naturally want to know how V performs compared to other machines. In reality, relative performance is the only benchmark that has any meaning, as there is no standard for absolute performance. So taking V and brand-X and comparing them on the same targets in the same soil is about as fair as you can get. But I also recognize that V has an instant disadvantage, as do all brand-new machines: lack of experience. It won't surprise me at all if someone says, "My Vision wouldn't detect a dime that my buddy could hear with his E-Trac." It will take a while for users to learn how to tweak V for their area and hunting style.

I also recognize that there will be drive-by shootings, some by extremely brand-loyal users, some by brand-new Findmall sign-ups with a post count of "1". I think that is what Larry wanted to avoid, but it can't be at the cost of legitimate discussion. I am not the least bit concerned about how well V performs, or how well it will stack up to the competition. My advice is to be civil, be honest, and be factual in comparisons and everything will be fine.

- Carl@White's

 

[Sonny(IN)]

very well stated. That is all most people wanted in the first place. Thanks for the vision

 

[treasureisland]

Point taken Carl i dident think a simple question i posted would cause so much trouble, lets forget it and move on, the XLT was a great detector i will have every faith in the new Vision, when it finally arrives in the Uk.

Regards treasureisland

 

[bfodnes]

Seems like there is suddenly a huge demand in comparisons. Way more demand then ever before. Even when the DFX came out vs XS and F75 vs Explorer and E-Trac vs both Explorer and F 75...

Is it because some people feel screwed on their lates purchase and dont want that to happen again. Did some people end up disapointed with what they got compared to the feeback on the forums. I think there is something to that as i have talked with a few that feel that disapointment but those people dont post as much as the ones that are very satisfied...

Dankowski has a great article on his site about the challenges involving comparisons of detectors and it must be read by all that want to understand what it involves. Especially with detectors that are close in depth and recovery speed.

Lets hope the comparisons here can be done with all that in mind and with little bad mouthing..

 

[khouse]

I agree about comparing machines. Some people that say "I took X detector over my yard and found 12 coins that my Z brand didn't find". I don't even take these comparisons seriously. There are all sorts of reasons why more coins are found. I suspect it is simply you got your coil over them! When I compare machines I have both machines with me. I find a target with one and put that machine through it's paces. Then I turn it off and do the same with the other detector. I think this is how a comparison should be? Or close to it.

 

[xwyokid]

I think comparing the Vision to any metal detector that been in use for sometime is silly. If the Vision is as good as many of us think it will be...Let's do some comparisons in 2-4 months when the first lucky Vision owners have had time to learn the machine and how to get the most out of it.

 

[steve herschbach]

Hi Carl,

A wise man you are with a measured point of view. Not nearly the crotchety old guy I'm turning into!

"I also recognize that there will be drive-by shootings, some by extremely brand-loyal users, some by brand-new Findmall sign-ups with a post count of "1"."

Yeah, you got that right. Years ago when the Infinium came out, I posted some comments about it being a decent little unit for the price. Did I ever get piled on for that. People who have never posted anywhere before appear magically and totally rip into you for what they apparently perceive as a threat, at least going by the way they go about it. They get quite nasty and personal about it. Some who have posted here have never experienced that and so wonder why some of us are hesitant to throw ourselves in front of that train.

Steve Herschbach

 

[Carolina Phil]

I think some of it has to do with people getting their income taxes back at the same time the Vision is being released. Their ready to buy before those tax returns burns a hole in their pocket. It's also the first of Spring and time to get out and detect. They want to find out NOW if they should buy a Vision or some other machine that they've been eyeing.

 

[lytle78]

I hope to get a V soon to pair up with my TDI and do some detecting when I move to Virginia in a couple of weeks. Meanwhile here in Arizona - I thought it would be a neat idea to get my neighbor, who I know has a ML Explorer to get with me and play with our detectors on an older site here in the Phoenix area. The first problem I ran into was that he didn't seem to be picking up on my hints - no invite to accompany him today was forthcoming. The second thing was (and this is the relevant part) whrn he pulled his detector out of the tool box on his pickup. That thing was totally beat to crap! He must have put 1000hours on it detecting.

Carl is right, in any comparison the detector with the most experienced user (or the one the tester has the most experience with) will have a huge edge.

 

[Beachcomber]

I think there are have always been requests for comparisons when any new machine comes out no matter what the brand. There were a lot of comparisons when the Explorer 2 came out as well as the SE and E-Trac. The same with the F75. I think what brought it more to head hear was when they told us comparisons would be deleted and if the poster did it again they would be banned. I think if that hadn't happened it would have been just the normal requests that most people have when a new machine hits the market. I personally like to hear the comparisons but take them with a grain of salt as they are at best subjective. Still I like to gain all the knowledge I can before making the decision whether or not to buy a new detector. I have been watching all the videos on White's Vision Website to learn what I can. Even so only actual posts by people who have the Vision have real meaning. I know that the White Dealer I buy from has no test garden so all I can do at the store are air tests which are useless in a store environment. Since you can't return a detector after you buy it and try it I want to learn as much about how the machine compares to other machines that I am already familiar with before deciding whether or not to plunk down $1700 to buy a Vision!!! Hopefully Carl's Post here will get Findmall to rethink their hardline response to people making comparisons!!!! The Vision has a lot of awesome and innovative new features and while they are impressive in the end they don't mean a lot if the machine doesn't perform well in the Field. So hopefully we will hear more from people who are using them in their old hunted out or trashy sites as well as on the Ocean Beaches to see jsut what this new American Made detector can do!!!!!

JMHO

HH

Beachcomber

 

[coinnut]

I would love to have a head to head comparison between the Vision and the E Trac and the F75. But in reality, that's just a dream. It could never be a fair contest, since we never learn our machines to their limit.Some people think they have their machines all figured out, but it usually means they have found a setting they like, and have grown with that setting. Some may like mixed mode, others a wide open screen. But did these people ever try EVERY possible combination and stick with each one for years??? Of course not. My program on my DFX works because I have been using it and have become better with it every day. But I never tried many of the other ways of using that machine. So who is talented enough to go head to head with another expert and his machine under the various soil conditions and trash / iron combinations??? In my opinion, no one person has that information. The test will always be skewed. People honestly think their machines are better than others. I think the Vision will take the same negative hits that the other new machines take. It will pass as many more experienced reports come in. Do you know how I pick the best machines??? Not by any ones bragging or bashing!!! I look over all the forums and see the finds that are being made by lots of different people. The machine that consistently finds the artifacts I am looking for wins!!! Compare peoples results and forget their comments Show me what you learned on your machine. Show me what you found with your machine. Ask questions and pass around theories about your new machine. BUT forget about the childish "my machines beats your machine hands down" kind of comments. Just my way of thinking guys HH

 

[Daniel A.]

My thoughts are along the line of Beachcomber I was surprised last night to see the heavy hand of Censorship. Show me the man that stands higher than democracy, Whites already has a site where there can be no mention of another brand. There are a number of users who will buy without the benefit of ever holding a Vision and more information is better than less that may be because we all don't have a local dealer and need to hear what others think, given time a fair comparison can be done but what is fair to one may mean something different to another user. One thought today as I read the last few subjects posted was there is so much pressure to limit our detecting areas, the last thing we need is a pi$$ing match between ourselves. I have never been brand loyal but then I also have many machines on the wall to chose from. Should anyone think the Vision is the best I think that's great, if you say you prefer something else that's fine to just no need to be nasty.
Dan

 

[ISLANDJOE]

I have an idea, Someone please start a new Forum called "DEBATE FORUM" where you can debate all detectors, coils, and anything else that you want to but just take it off of the "VISION FORUM"

The main reason I joined Finds Mall is to learn about MY detector and it's various uses. What I am saying I really don't give a DAMM about what other detectors will do vs the "Vision". I am not saying you don't have the right to debate, you do. It's called freedom of speech as long it is the truth.

At the same time I don't want to come on this Forum every day and try to gain more knowledge about the VISION and end up reading about "mine will do this,but yours can't". There are some of us that don't care what each detector does vs the other. At least give those that really don't want to read about this a chance for some peace. If I want to read about the debate or join in then I can go to the Debate Forum. We have that right also.

Prior to purchase I did my research. White's and this forum provided ME with enough answers and materials(manuals) read to make an educational decision. Their is no doubt that I have purchased the best detector that will work for me and under my conditons.

Yes I own an E-TRAC and it is another outstanding detector but the bottom line it doesn't work for me considering my ground conditions. If I was in a different location of my choice I more than likely would have not even considered the Vision. But I made the choice and it's my choice.

If this offends anyone then I will aplogize up front! I think I said enough for one day.

My name is BOB and I accept any responsibility for what I have said.

 

[Daniel A.]

 

[jspoon]

I love comparison testing, I don't care where you live or what your soil is like, I'll try and equal or exceed your findings always thinking I have the best machine out of the lot. It's also interesting to see what results others are getting in there particular area...knowledge is king.
Just my.02

 

[nw1886]

I build computers for friends and family. When I started, flame wars were running absolutely rampant with the Intel vs. AMD comparisons. In the end...everything was so useless (and mind numbingly boring and tiring). The forums that were the arena for all this "stuff" ultimately and aggressively discouraged all the "blanket comparisons" because? Peoples requirements, uses, hardware variables and budgets, were just too diverse for anything truly advantageous to be achieved with it all. Eventually...Intel comes out with Core2Duo and then it turns into a "value oriented whine fest"! People just quit paying attention to it all. That's what will happen here but...sooner would be much better than later.

We should just have a "sticky" here, to kindly direct people to, that explains our collective reasoning of what will be good for us all..and what isn't. this place has no shortage of good people to facilitate this. Quick action and resolution (of this first round) has proven this!

 

[Joel-Winnipeg]

n/t

 

[utahshovelhead]

Can you beat this dead horse a little more? Pleanty of good talk has been made. There are lots of good posts on how the machine is working... I'd like to see more... can you make that happen or you just gonna keep talking about it?


utahshovelhead

that's right I got a shovel for a head.

 

[nw1886]

I know but...new members and... even us loosing track, can benefit by something. (Dead horses always end up stinking!!!!)

 

[go-rebels]

Where has anyone trashed the Vision or stated "my machine is better than yours"? Get over your paranoia! No testing is perfect but a little care will give valuable results. As far as looking at what people are finding, that's the last way I'll make a decision. Guys who coin hunt in the Northeast with lots of old sites have an advantage over a guy in southern Florida.. I work 50 hrs/wk so every retiree has an advantage over me. Someone who is internet savvy and posts every find on this site will have a big influence. I'd rather read about someone's opinion of their machine, especially if they have a reference against a similar machine I have owned.