Can you prove to me that iron mask unmasks targets better or do something that most other detectors out there can't even in a silly air test because I can prove just the opposite if you like. The answer to your question "can it make a difference in some cases" is yes but with a disclaimer. I base my opinion on field experience not on myth, freshly buried targets or air tests. The benefits of turning it off can far outweigh any small benefit it "might" have on a circumstance that may or may not happen. Minelab doesn't really explain how they do it but according to Minelab when describing iron mask, it says that when hunting in iron the Sovereign, through BBS technology, is particularly good at making the distinction between non ferrous and iron but even here "circumstances" "may" arise when using the normal mode that a target "could" be lost depending on "settings" and "ground conditions". Minelab does not say that you have to use iron mask to find targets close to iron or that you will loose most targets that are close to iron without iron mask. Most detectors can be set to discriminate out iron completely, when the iron is in the air but it doesn't work that way on iron in the ground and when mineralization is also added. Most detectors will chatter and/or false on certain size or odd shaped iron and sometimes certain iron like nails that you thought were discriminated out will give you a nice two way false positive in the upper coin area. The Sovereign has a preset rejection to all iron in it's discrimination range and with iron mask on pretty much reacts the same to iron as any other detector in this regard. The only difference between these other detectors and the Sovereign models that have the iron mask switch is seen when you turn iron mask off. When iron mask is off it reduces this sensitivity to iron even further with significantly less iron falsing and false positives. It also reduces the sensitivity to mineralization and for some reason EMI providing smoother operation. Even Minelab states that in mineralized ground turning iron mask off could provide better performance. Turning it off acts like an additional filter of some type to me and even though Minelab says that a "slight" depth loss could occur when turning iron mask off, so far in mineralized ground I haven't seen the difference as far as depth but I have seen improvement on signal quality especially on small targets and low conductors especially on mineralized beaches like we have on the west coast. I haven't seen enough of an advantage to using iron mask on even in iron compared to the advantages I've seen so far when using it off in mineralized ground to make it usable in most situations.
Find's Treasure Forums
Welcome to Find's Treasure Forums, Guests!
You are viewing this forums as a guest which limits you to read only status.
Only registered members may post stories, questions, classifieds, reply to other posts, contact other members using built in messaging and use many other features found on these forums.
Why not register and join us today? It's free! (We don't share your email addresses with anyone.) We keep email addresses of our users to protect them and others from bad people posting things they shouldn't.
Click here to register!
Need Support Help?
Cannot log in?, click here to have new password emailed to you
Changed email? Forgot to update your account with new email address? Need assistance with something else?, click here to go to Find's Support Form and fill out the form.
Critter, this iron mask debate is getting old between us.
- Thread starter crazyman
- Start date
Do you think that air tests on targets when it comes to targets masking another are reliable and do you base your decision to dig or not to dig targets in the field on these air tests? If so I can show you a couple of air tests that will make you question just how well the iron mask works. No tricks involved.
.....JimI agree with what you are saying. The only thing that bench test and air tests are good for is to prove the detector beeps on metal. After that it is open to manipulation and guessing. I have gone through some detectors in the last couple of years trying to find the one for me. I air tested them. I rigged up a little test garden. But the only way I could really tell was to use it in the field. I settled on the Sovereign. The best and easiest detector I ever used in actual hunting. I live in PA. Our soil is not heavy in minerals. What we do have is a very long history of throwing trash in the dirt. Most of it is iron. Iron mask on or off doesn't really do anything for me. But with the meter and a changing threshold I weave my way through it.
All you can do is relate what you see or learn from experience and hope it helps somebody. It's up to people whether they want to try it and see if it works the same for them and might be useful in similar circumstances. I personally don't care whether they do or don't. I only care if they dismiss my experience purely on shoulda, coulda, woulda, or some myth without relating any real experience to back it up.
You know what... I have always used IM by default. After reading your post I am going to spend some time without it. The main reason I don't use the SovereignGT more is because I am always digging cut square nails, rusted bolts, and other small or short corroded iron... but especially cut square nails... if IM off will fix this I will be a happy camper indeed!
Thanks,
Julien
Thanks,
Julien
Critterhunter
New member
I should have let it stand where it was when I said a few weeks back that we'd have to agree to disagree. I'll try to distill my logic in as clear and short of manner as possible here, which will be a first for me...
Does Iron Mask Off make the machine less noisy? Yes.
Does this mean tt can be useful in high minerals or heavy trash? Yes.
Does that then mean that I use Iron Mask Off at sites like that? No. I prefer maximum ability and then to use my ears. The site would have to be so far gone that I just can't take the noise anymore, and that's rare for me.
Will Iron Mask Off find coins in iron as good or better than any other machine on the market? I'd say yes for the most part.
Which is more critical- Iron Mask On, Off, or coil placement? That's easy. Coil placement, because 90 degree deflection over something like a nail will greatly degrade target quality.
How & Why Does Iron Mask ON work? Ahh, here's were we are both reaction for straws with out Minelab stepping up and offering that. No point in debating the method, so let's get to the results...
Do I Feel Iron Mask ON has more ability to sound off to coins mixed in trash than Off does? Yes, I do, and I really doubt Minelab would put the ability to turn this function on or off if that ability didn't exist. Regardless of how it happens or why, it does seem to pull signals out of iron better.
That's where I stand. As to the pros and cons of bench testing versus undug targets, of course there are subtle differences between the two. However, bench, air, or buried target testing can provide at least a base line to go by in initial comparisons. It's just another tool in testing and can have advantages over undug targets in certain respects. How? Well, for example, without being very careful in digging up say an iron and a coin in the same hole to see exactly how they are orienated in relation to each other, certain things wouldn't be as obvious that air testing can quickly point out. Namely, one thing that quickly comes to mind is how the DD detection field (a line from tip to toe of the coil) is reflected when it goes acrossed a nail in 90 degree relation to that nail. Parallel investigation of the two targets will allow the field to often reach the coin underneath that 90 degrees more often will not allow. Of course much of my opinion or stance on things is impacted by what happens in real life in the field. I don't use my testing as the final answer to a question, but rather a basis to begin my theories on, which will then be proved or disproved with field use.
I have yet to wander into an area where conditions were so bad that I hunted in Iron Mask Off out of need. Have I done it out of curiousity? Yes, but despite how bad ground conditions get with say false coin hits and such, I much prefer to decipher those signals for myself by ear. It's not that Iron Mask OFF won't tame down those phantom signals for me, it's just that I prefer to let my ears be the judge. It only requires a slightly different set of "standards" or "criteria" to make the deciding decisions on what is what in those circumstances. Had Minelab provided the ability to zero out the iron discrimination on the GT I would always hunt that way, just like I've done on my QXT Pro. With alert tones (multitones) to me discrimination is primarily useless, so I want to hear everything, and thus I want Iron Mask ON to "bother me" with everything it sees fit as well. This differs greatly from my ring hunting on land where when tabs exist by the millions at certain sites is greatly distracts from both my gold ring and nickle hunting. My hearing in that respect (say nickles versus tabs at the low end of the tab scale) is not as good in the slight difference in tones from say a 146 nickle signal versus a 148 or 149 tab tone. Since I don't plan to dig the tabs when there is a sea of them I'd rather not hear them in the first place. That's where people have to make their decision with Iron Mask On or Off. Do you want to hear the "iffy" coin signals that could be iron or might very well be a masked coin? If so, then Iron Mask On will enhance that ability. If you don't plan to bother with those then turn it OFF. Sure, you'll still get those targets, but they will be far less likely to speak up IMO.
Does Iron Mask Off make the machine less noisy? Yes.
Does this mean tt can be useful in high minerals or heavy trash? Yes.
Does that then mean that I use Iron Mask Off at sites like that? No. I prefer maximum ability and then to use my ears. The site would have to be so far gone that I just can't take the noise anymore, and that's rare for me.
Will Iron Mask Off find coins in iron as good or better than any other machine on the market? I'd say yes for the most part.
Which is more critical- Iron Mask On, Off, or coil placement? That's easy. Coil placement, because 90 degree deflection over something like a nail will greatly degrade target quality.
How & Why Does Iron Mask ON work? Ahh, here's were we are both reaction for straws with out Minelab stepping up and offering that. No point in debating the method, so let's get to the results...
Do I Feel Iron Mask ON has more ability to sound off to coins mixed in trash than Off does? Yes, I do, and I really doubt Minelab would put the ability to turn this function on or off if that ability didn't exist. Regardless of how it happens or why, it does seem to pull signals out of iron better.
That's where I stand. As to the pros and cons of bench testing versus undug targets, of course there are subtle differences between the two. However, bench, air, or buried target testing can provide at least a base line to go by in initial comparisons. It's just another tool in testing and can have advantages over undug targets in certain respects. How? Well, for example, without being very careful in digging up say an iron and a coin in the same hole to see exactly how they are orienated in relation to each other, certain things wouldn't be as obvious that air testing can quickly point out. Namely, one thing that quickly comes to mind is how the DD detection field (a line from tip to toe of the coil) is reflected when it goes acrossed a nail in 90 degree relation to that nail. Parallel investigation of the two targets will allow the field to often reach the coin underneath that 90 degrees more often will not allow. Of course much of my opinion or stance on things is impacted by what happens in real life in the field. I don't use my testing as the final answer to a question, but rather a basis to begin my theories on, which will then be proved or disproved with field use.
I have yet to wander into an area where conditions were so bad that I hunted in Iron Mask Off out of need. Have I done it out of curiousity? Yes, but despite how bad ground conditions get with say false coin hits and such, I much prefer to decipher those signals for myself by ear. It's not that Iron Mask OFF won't tame down those phantom signals for me, it's just that I prefer to let my ears be the judge. It only requires a slightly different set of "standards" or "criteria" to make the deciding decisions on what is what in those circumstances. Had Minelab provided the ability to zero out the iron discrimination on the GT I would always hunt that way, just like I've done on my QXT Pro. With alert tones (multitones) to me discrimination is primarily useless, so I want to hear everything, and thus I want Iron Mask ON to "bother me" with everything it sees fit as well. This differs greatly from my ring hunting on land where when tabs exist by the millions at certain sites is greatly distracts from both my gold ring and nickle hunting. My hearing in that respect (say nickles versus tabs at the low end of the tab scale) is not as good in the slight difference in tones from say a 146 nickle signal versus a 148 or 149 tab tone. Since I don't plan to dig the tabs when there is a sea of them I'd rather not hear them in the first place. That's where people have to make their decision with Iron Mask On or Off. Do you want to hear the "iffy" coin signals that could be iron or might very well be a masked coin? If so, then Iron Mask On will enhance that ability. If you don't plan to bother with those then turn it OFF. Sure, you'll still get those targets, but they will be far less likely to speak up IMO.
OK, I will give you the benefit of doubt. Since you say that when it comes to air tests and actual targets in ground there is only "subtle differences between the two" then by all means show me an air test then that shows that iron mask on will do something that iron mask off won't. You keep saying it does so here's your chance.
I started with the Original Sovereign and learned for myself what it will do and not do in iron. I didn't purposely test each and every target when hunting just for testing sake. It's when I started using the iron mask switch as a form of reverse iron discrimination that I learned what turning iron mask on or off can do. I found that the value of the iron mask switch was not being able to turn it on but in being able to turn it off in certain situations. I know that using air tests in this situation with the GT can only prove what the iron mask can't do not on what it can do and that is what got his debate going. I knew when someone said that Des had a video showing how great the iron mask worked using an air test that there was something wrong because I already knew that it couldn't be done. If the iron mask even as narrow as it seems was just mere discrimination like on other detectors you would still have a hard time finding just the right combination of iron size and target orientation to show that it had any benefit between on and off whether it was in the ground or in the air. If I go by your own or Des's standard of proof that using an air test is reliable then I will. No tricks involved here. Using the fat crusty nail over the dime in the picture, the dime will give a nice tone and on the meter will ID as a zinc penny exactly the same with both iron mask on and off but to be fair I tried it again on a different size nail but this time the dime didn't make a peep and it didn't see the dime whether iron mask was on or off either just like on the first nail. I tested both targets exactly the same. Turning iron mask off or on iron didn't make any difference on either of the targets even when one was masked and the other wasn't. Even if you know the answer to why it would hit the dime under one nail and not the other ( I do) it still shows that iron mask makes no difference by your standard of testing.
Please don't make me waste the time to put it on video just for Critter. After all, I know more tricks than they do and in the end I really don't care if people use a mop stick and Frisbee to detect. It started out as a trying to offer some advise that might help someone in bad ground by turning iron mask off to get a little better performance and stability. Then it went from there to if you turn it off you won't find anything close to iron by some and then showing a video where they used camera editing and deceitful slight of hand tricks to try and prove it. It went from trying to help someone to trying to prove that these people are wrong. I've tried to do so using what Minelab themselves say and by my own experience through actual hunting and even logic( no wise cracks here). Even though I debunked that test in the video without question some people still want to make people believe that the iron mask switch test in that video is still valid by saying that Minelab is wrong in what even they put in their own manuals and I'm wrong in what my experienced has shown. They want to use a trick video to prove Iron mask is magical but refuse to to test it themselves without tricks because if they do it will show that iron mask on or off doesn't doesn't really make a difference. I'm not sure I'm still trying to help at this point and and my arm is getting tired trying to drive a square peg through a hole.
This is debate is about relying on the results of air tests as opposed to actual results in the field. The iron mask feature is being used as an example because someone faked the results of an air test to in order prove that the iron mask would do something that it actually can't.
crazyman,
Let the cards fall where they will .....We're all big boys and girls here ....If someone believes that Iron Mask ON is the answer to thier hunting needs , so be it ........If they think that they can get better results in highly mineralized ground with the Iron Mask OFF , so be it !!....... It's time for folks to do thier OWN tests to see for THEMSELVES what works for them and what doesn't ...... No good deed goes unpunished ......You have gone the extra mile to prove your point, and Critter has also gone the extra mile to prove his point ....People are just going to have to try this on thier own .....They wil draw their own conclusions ...... I will stick to my original belief and use for the Iron Mask and will keep it OFF in highly mineralized ground or when needed to calm down my audio .....It will be a filter for me ....nothing more and nothing less ..... For this it works very well for me , and that is how it will be used .......Good Luck whatever you decide ...... Critter is alao very pationate about what he believes to be true .....The same holds true for him ..... Folks may listen to what he believes and that's OK too ....Maybe it's just time to leave well enough alone , and again , just agree to to disagree and let's move on ......Jim
Let the cards fall where they will .....We're all big boys and girls here ....If someone believes that Iron Mask ON is the answer to thier hunting needs , so be it ........If they think that they can get better results in highly mineralized ground with the Iron Mask OFF , so be it !!....... It's time for folks to do thier OWN tests to see for THEMSELVES what works for them and what doesn't ...... No good deed goes unpunished ......You have gone the extra mile to prove your point, and Critter has also gone the extra mile to prove his point ....People are just going to have to try this on thier own .....They wil draw their own conclusions ...... I will stick to my original belief and use for the Iron Mask and will keep it OFF in highly mineralized ground or when needed to calm down my audio .....It will be a filter for me ....nothing more and nothing less ..... For this it works very well for me , and that is how it will be used .......Good Luck whatever you decide ...... Critter is alao very pationate about what he believes to be true .....The same holds true for him ..... Folks may listen to what he believes and that's OK too ....Maybe it's just time to leave well enough alone , and again , just agree to to disagree and let's move on ......Jim