DEEP - ON. :starwars: FAST - OFF

[UtahRich]

Ok, I have decided to give the Fast - On, Deep - Off Recovery settings a try and see if I notice any appreciable difference in my finds in the high trash areas I have been hunting. Everyone seems to have their own preferences and it seems that most that have been hunting public parks and schools have come to the conclusion that these settings work best. Up to this point, still an E-Trac newbie, I have been using Deep - ON, FAST - OFF and feel that I have been at least somewhat successful.

I haven't had any shortage of targets mixed in with rusty nails or sitting on top or adjacent to a NULL. Yesterday, I stopped by a place I have been hunting frequently the last couple months and decided to see if I could squeeze out another coin or two. I was getting skunked for anything old and running out of time and finally found a deep target reading 9/37 9/38 and was at the very bottom of my meter. From the depths came a 1923 wheatie. So, I am finding deep stuff. The question is, are my settings causing me to miss additional targets? How do I know if I am missing them if I don't even know they are there?

Any thoughts from you other users out there are appreciated. I will let you know how I do.

Rich

 

[Goes4ever]

everywhere I hunt is trashy so for me it is always fast ON.........deep OFF. If I ever get to a place that has less trash I'd be willing to switch it up.

 

[synthnut]

I try to limit the amount of filters I have on and let the processor do it's work ....The E Trac already recovers pretty fast for a Minelab ....I will hut with Deep "On" and leave the rest alone and add a +3 to my sensitivity if I know there are deep targets ..... I will slow my swing down, and a smaller coil doesn't hurt either if there is a lot of trash ..... Less nulling and much better seperation, and the sensitivity can be raised higher too ..... More surgical so to speak .....Jim

 

[ziphius]

Rick,

That's a nice descripiton of the deep wheat you got, man it's always great to see that depth meter pegged, rarely happens for me. So, the next time you get one of those targets, mark the spot and then start tinkering with your settings to see what the effects (if any) on the audio response and digital readouts are. Depending on the amount of discrimination you are running with, you may also experiment with different patterns, which can make signals sound better/worse, depending. Testing different settings on undug targets is the best objective way to figure out what works best in your area and soil type. Also experiment with swing speed and angles over the same undug targets. It pays to take notes too, as an hour later you will be saying "Hmmm.... I forget if DEEP ON or OFF sounded better on that deep wheatie...." Good luck out there. - Jim

PS - I prefer DEEP OFF AND FAST OFF in the turf parks I hunt. Signals on deep coins are fuller, less 'chopped'.

 

[moseng]

Depending on the site I will use either but so far not both together.

For trashy areas, and I mean the kind where each swing sounds like a machine gun (of low tones and or nulling) through the headphones I'll use fast on. After trying both fast on and off in these areas I have noticed that fast on does get more good targets.

As for deep on, last week I did some air tests on some coins and noticed that it gave me about 1/2" to 1" more reach. I don't know if that will be the same in the ground though. Until now I always thought deep on messed with the tones and readings so I didn't use it. But for an inch more depth I think I'm going to try it if the site warrants it's use.

 

[RLOH]

Rich, I hunt with both off. I have tried all the combinations and I never noticed too much difference. When hunting places with little trash, I will use fast off and deep on. I agree with Bryce's theory of "what works for you". Here is another question. I have used the Etrac for the entire spring season and I have yet to noise cancel the detector. I have used Explorers since they came out and the only time I ever noise cancelled was if I experienced any sort of emi. I dig many DEEP coins and people on other forums have commented that I am wrong by not cancelling. Thousands of hours on these detectors. Maybe I am wrong to not cancel, but I would be very interested in how many of the people with years of experience with any Explorer actually noise cancel every time they fire up their detector. R.L.

 

[UtahRich]

I appreciate the posts and hearing back from all of you. I have a parallel post on the Explorer Forum next door that has had some feedback as well.

I originally came up the what I am currently using on my E-Trac with my old Explorer XS by going over a couple deep targets and seeing what they sounded like with changing the FAST and DEEP settings. I did not like the sound of having them both on at the same time and ended up using DEEP - ON, FAST - OFF for nearly 10 years.

When I picked up my E-Trac, I also picked up a copy of Andy Sabishs' most recent book on the Explorer / E-Trac's and took some of the E-Trac specific settings from there as well as from suggestion from some of the experienced hunters on the forum.

I think I will postpone the Fast - ON, Deep - OFF for a bit. Had some feedback that I should really consider hunting with both of them OFF. I am going to give that a try for a few months and also tweak my audio gain up a wee bit. I do want to audibly be able to tell depth a bit by volume and don't want to jack the gain to the max. I have an old pair of KOSS headphones that are VERY loud with all of my detectors and I don't think that I am missing any deep signals due to lack of volume.

I am a big fan of leaving most of my settings alone after finding what works for me. The only thing that I adjust everytime out is the sensitivity. I try to keep it in the low to mid- 20's, I will bump it up until things get a little erratic and then drop until things smooth out. Sometimes I am WAY above the 'suggested' setting, other times close. I will usually do a Noise Cancel when I am at a site as well.

I do have an exception to this. A couple areas have really produced well and I inadvertently noticed that the Noise Cancel setting was the same at each place respectively. So when I hunt these two areas, I manually set the channel to the particular setting that worked. I ought to take this one step further and see if it makes a difference to change channels when I am over a deep target. Right now, it feels more like wearing a lucky Harley shirt or something when I hunt. Also, I leave the cell phone in the car or turn it off if I feel like I need to have it with me.

Thanks again for the input. Greatly appeciated.


Rich

 

[Gaz]

Hi Rich!


This is a great thread and continues a subject which has been touched on before.

It's just theory on my part at the moment but as has been suggested, removing as much additional filtering as possible can only be a good thing when trying to remove extra processing.
In my mind this can only speed things up.
I have now decided on DEEP OFF, FAST ON and VOLUME GAIN 30. This removes the additional filtering the DEEP ON uses to enhance fainter, deeper signals. The increase in Volume Gain to 30 enhances those deep signals without this filtering.
Similarly, by switching FAST ON, the ETrac switches off additional filtering it uses to stabilise fluctuating target ID's. As in 2 tone Ferrous mode, hunt by high tone only.

The most important setting in my mind Rich is to remove any black you have at the bottom of the screen......remove it completely!!
If you have black at the bottom, the ETrac will null out over iron and have to recover which is what we want to avoid. Let the ETrac give you a low tone instead of a null.
That way it doesn't have to recover........one Turbo Charged Etrac!!!

Gaz.

 

[captn_se]

Hey R.L.

I'd say if you aren't experiencing erratic/jumpy behavior of your target ID, along with lots of chattering tones when you're not swinging your coil, then noise cancel will have no effect on your ability to hear deep targets because EMI is not affecting you. Location is everything when it comes to EMI. Where I hunt (urban city parks), EMI is ever present. In fact, there's parks I know I will have to change channels on my machine to get it to quiet down.multiple times throughout the day. Also, if I'm hunting with a few of my Explorer buddies, I will have to change channels when I get close to them. Seems like I get more crosstalk with my friend's XS than any other Explorer.

HH,
CAPTN SE
Dan

 

[Gaz]

....again, great advice from the Captain!!

Gaz.

 

[Chris(SoCenWI)]

I think this is another one of the big misunderstandings about the Explorers; that you need to noise cancel to deal with ground conditions. Nope. It's all EMI. There are times when I'm detecting in the city and can only run at mid upper teens that I will try a noise cancel. Sometimes will allow me to bump the sens up 1 or 2 but seldom much of a big difference, and maybe a few feet farther down the line it gets twitchy again. I think that 99% of the EMI we deal with is from power lines and the noise generated is fairly broadband; shifting the transmit frequency by a small amount isn't going to make much difference.

As far as fast and deep. I've had both on or off, sometimes for a year or more at a time; don't think it makes a huge difference.

Chris

 

[captn_se]

I know you're a big fan of the 2-Tone, Ferrous, All Metal setup on your machine, and have been very successful hunting this way in your areas.

The only way to hunt with a wide open screen is in Ferrous sounds, IMHO....no way can you do this in Conductive (iron is high toned in Conduct). I'm sure you knew this, and were suggesting that Rich hunt in Ferrous, wide open, to receive low tones on iron targets. Where I hunt, there are many, many more aluminum targets in the ground then there are iron targets (typical urban park environment). In addition, my areas have above average ground mineralization, which causes the Ferrous reading on the target ID to jump/skew/bounce much more on deep targets than Conduct readings do. For me, hunting in Ferrous is futile. Here in California, I can only name a few Explorer/E-Trac guys (out of a hundred), that still use Ferrous sounds, All metal while hunting urban parks. Conductive with a little bit of iron masking is preferred by the majority for hunting these conditions. I'm going to be sacrificing a little bit of recovery time by nulling on iron, but I have accepted that as a trade-off for better identification of the real deepies in my hunting areas.

HH,
CAPTN SE
Dan

 

[synthnut]

Gaz,
I was reading your settings and while I somewhat like the idea of openning up the pattern as not to "null" the iron and such to allow the E Trac to work easier , but I think that the "deep on" setting actually allows signals that you would not normally hear to be heard ....I don't think that it is a matter of volume only that you could find the deeper targets by adding more volume .... In other words , I think that deep on is a processing function that brings the target into play that is normally not even heard ....It's not something as simple as a volume boost to bring it into play ..... Please keep in mind that I am just using my own thoughts here ....I have no proof that what I am saying is true, but I have turned "deep on' to " deep off" on some deep targets , and have turned the volume up , and deep on is what made the difference , not the volume or gain of the signal .... .....If you have nothing in the ground to hear, and you turn up the volume , you hear a louder background noise .....If you have a target that is there , and it needs to be brought to the forefront through processing and not volume, it will be heard at the same volume .....This is how I understand the "deep on " signal ....... Again, just my thoughts, and my hypothesis from what I have learned with deep targets and the E Trac ... I hunted with a guy with an E Trac when I was using my Safari .....He would come up on signals that he could only hear with " deep on" with his E Trac ....He would call me over to check the target , and I would not be able to hear the target at all !!!.....Between the deep on, and the other filtering and processing of the E Trac is what enticed me to buy the E Trac ....I haven't looked back !!!... ....Jim

 

[rbholt80]

its fun to read what every one uses and thinks. it really cant hurt to have these topics spring up. even being a seasoned etrac user i always read and im sure the new users can learn from this type of level headed discussion on settings.
i feel that being able to talk and not argue is one of the fine points of this forum.

here are my favorite settings.
fast = on
deep = off
long tones
conductive
multi
gain 27
max on most of the others
thresh set to mid levels barely can hear it.
manual sense 22 - 30

now that doesnt mean i run those setting all the time. if i do change things i may only change from conductive to ferrous and change my pattern. or i go to auto sense.
to much changing around of settings can throw you off on a hunt.
iv kinda got my 2 or 3 modes i stick with.
thats a great thing about the etrac it can be as many detectors as you want it to be or need all in one.

 

[synthnut]

"thats a great thing about the etrac it can be as many detectors as you want it to be or need all in one."


This was one of the many reasons I went for the E Trac ..... You can hunt just about anything other than going into the water with it ......The E Trac and a water machine is a pretty good setup to own ...It covers it all ..... Black sand can even be handled and as a beach machine the E Trac is DEEEEEEEEEEEP !!.....Good all around machine ....Jim

 

[Gaz]

Hi Synth.

Hmmmm.....I kinda agree and disagree with some of your comments.
Can I firstly big up this forum on how everyone discusses these issues with an open mind. I can't recall one arguement, only rational debate!!

My view is that the DEEP setting will still give a target signal on a deep target, it'll just be a faint one that's all. It also specifically mentions in the manual that when this on, there will be a slight delay.
Now......I have read, re-read and read again page 61 of the manual on Volume Gain. There is definately a distinct correlation to target strength and volume increase.

What you say is a very valid point Synth but I feel DEEP OFF, FAST ON and VOLUME GAIN 30 is the setup for me.

Captain.....yep, you're right mate....I do hunt in Ferrous sounds. Perhaps I didn't convey that properly!!

I also agree that different hunting grounds demand different setups. If you have to negotiate ringpulls and aluminium, my settings will give you a 'dig me' tone. I would say however that whatever setup you decide on, if you ignore whatever tones the ringpulls or aluminium is giving you, you could be missing some some great targets.

Gaz.

 

[UtahRich]

I made a trip out after work. Looking forward to a 4 day weekend coming up!

I headed out to an area I have been hitting pretty hard to do some DEEP and FAST experimenting. I set up my detector with my Normal Settings, I am doing these from memory, so if I slightly misname something, excuse me.

Quick Mask
Ferrous - 25
Conductive - 5
Sounds - Conductive
Tones - Multi
Response - Normal
Variability - 29
Limits - 30
Gain - 25
Deep - ON
Fast - OFF
Sensitivity - 23 today and the Noise Cancel settled on 10

Standard 11" Minelab Pro Coil



I had barely turned the detector on when I found what I thought was a very deep coin. It was giving a higher tone and reading 18/34 - 18/35 pretty consistently from about 3/4 of the way around the target. Had trouble from a certain angle. The depth gauge was indicating a target at the VERY bottom of the scale, no upward movement at all. There was another metallic object about 20" away that did not seem to be interfering with what I was doing.

I turned DEEP - OFF and swept the target again. The flutey sound of a deep coin wasn't quite as obvious, a little more broken, but still something that would capture my attention.

I turned FAST - ON and re-swept the target. The target sound was now quite broken and much shorter. Worse, not better.

I changed the sensitivity from 23 up to 30 and had problems with stability. I then turned the sensitivity down to 15 where the AUTO setting was suggesting I have it set. I lost the audio signal. I changed to FAST OFF, no signal. I changed to DEEP ON, no signal. The signal returned barely when I reached a sensitivity setting of 21.

I knelt down and started recovering the target and quickly reached the limits of my Lesche digger. The pistol probe said the coin was off center on the bottom of the hole. My coin popper probe has a 9.5" shaft and I was past that. Sitting at 11" at more than a 45* angle was a brass Salt Lake City Ulatco Childs Fare Trolley / Bus Token. It is square, is the width of a nickel and says Good For Childs Fare, Ages 5 - 12 on the reverse. I was, and still am impressed with the E-Trac ability to find this target that deep in this soil.

I returned my settings to 'normal'.

About 10 feet away, I found another target that was much more difficult to get a good read on. Audio was coming in pretty high, but wasn't very clean. There seemed to be some surrounding NULLING going on. The target was reading all over in ferrous and was coming in high 30's low 40's conductivity depending upon which angle I approached. It was reading at 3/4 of the depth scale.

I turned DEEP OFF and the audio improved a little bit as I circled around the target. The display was showing a 9/30- 9/31.

I turned FAST ON and the audio immediately improved and cleaned up dramatically.

I changed the sensitivity up and down. Going up from 23 to 25 was ok. Past 25 and things were very unstable. I could drop down to 18 before I lost the signal.

I removed the plug and pinpointed the target in the hole with the pistol probe. At 7" was a wheatie/nickel/wheatie sandwich laying flat in the hole. There was some rust blood in the soil around it as well from something that had rusted away and was gone. '48 and '57 wheaties and a '47 nickel.

I returned the settings to 'normal'.

My last decent target came along about a half hour later. A deep target that was reading classic wheatie, bordering on deep silver dime. I was getting 11/44 on the display and the target had the nice flutey sound that reveals it is getting towards the outer edges of the detectors reach. It was reading near the bottom of the depth scale, but still had some room.

I turned DEEP OFF and still picked up the signal but it was a little bit different character to it than I am used to. It was a definite 'good' target, just sounded different.

I turned FAST ON and the sound lost some of it's smoothness and became shorter in duration. Worse.

Playing with the sensitivity setting was the same. Increasing much above 23 caused erratic operation and random sounds. Dropping to 17 and the target disappeared.

I was excited that I might have a Merc dime. I haven't found a silver dime the last couple times out. I removed a deep plug and pinpointed the target in the bottom of the hole. At 9" was a Lincoln Penny. Flipping it over revealed the Lincoln Memorial building. (Fitting for the weekend I guess). Wow, what a disappointment. Not a Merc, not even a Rosey, not even a wheatie; it was a memorial penny. At least it was copper and not corroding zinc.

I hunted for another 2 hours and found only clad.

My take on this little experiment is this;

I am very used to running with DEEP - ON and FAST - OFF. My ears are attuned to the sounds.
The settings that I am using seem to provide exceptional depth in the areas I have been hunting.
The FAST - ON setting improved the sound of mid-range targets, but worsened deep targets.
DEEP - ON improved the sound for Deep targets.
Too much sensitivity made my detector very erratic and I would lose deep targets.
When sensitivity is lowered to the mid-teens, I am losing my deepest targets.

This was actually quite interesting for me to do. I typically concentrate on the search and recovery of targets and not so much playing with the detector settings. Not sure how I am going to take advantage of the FAST - ON settings for the mid-range stuff.

Perhaps the FAST - ON will be more valuable with a smaller coil when searching through the super high trash areas.

Anyway, feedback is appreciated.

Good luck,


Rich -

 

[Gaz]

A fantastic write up Rich. Thanks so much for taking the time.

I have to admit, I've never been a huge fan of multi tones. I've tried and tried but hate it. It's just too busy and confusing for me.

By reducing the amount of tones you hear, they become alot more audiable. In my mind, far too much gets missed in multi tones. I personally see absolutely no advantage in using them.

As I've said, I now use DEEP OFF and FAST ON to remove all filtering, turn VOLUME GAIN to 30 and run an open screen in 2 tones Ferrous.

It works a treat for me. Super fast with great target separation. Tuning your ears into just finding the high tone concentrates the brain.

Great work though mate!! You should write up another when you get out again.

Gaz.

 

[NebTrac]

Thanks for the write up of your "setttings story" Rich. I appreciated reading that!! Now just get some film footage of that!

NebTrac

 

[UtahRich]

I have to admit, I've never been a huge fan of multi tones. I've tried and tried but hate it. It's just too busy and confusing for me.

By reducing the amount of tones you hear, they become alot more audiable. In my mind, far too much gets missed in multi tones. I personally see absolutely no advantage in using them.

As I've said, I now use DEEP OFF and FAST ON to remove all filtering, turn VOLUME GAIN to 30 and run an open screen in 2 tones Ferrous.

It works a treat for me. Super fast with great target separation. Tuning your ears into just finding the high tone concentrates the brain.

G'day Gaz,

I think you're exactly right about multi-tones. There is a downside; missing a lot of good targets that fall in the middle. Let's call it CHERRY PICKING DISEASE.

Years ago, I purchased my first serious detector, a Teknetics Mark I, a great detector. I used to go our club meetings with all my finds to enter in the FINDS OF THE MONTH contest. White's detectors of one form or another dominated the arsenals of the membership by far. In the two plus years of using that Mark I, I believe I found 2 old nickels. I would like at the display tables and see all sorts of V and Buffalo Nickels, gold rings and stuff and wonder what I was doing wrong. I originally thought it was my detector, but later I realized that it was ME mentally tuning out the low end stuff, cherry picking the higher end stuff. I had plenty of brass tokens, Indian Head Pennies, wheaties and silver, but it fell off drastically below that.

I ended up selling that Mark I and purchased the newest White's, the Eagle I. Immediately, I started finding old nickels like there was no tomorrow, and other low conductors as well. As I walked out of the shop, Chuck Morris, the local dealer suggested that I keep an eye out for targets that fell between pull tab and Penny, these would often be rings. On the way home, I stopped by an old little league football field. Out in the middle of the field I picked up a target 5" deep that was in no mans lands between pull tab and penny. I dug it up and it was a beautiful Man's 14k yellow gold wedding band with white gold trim on each edge. Lesson learned. I went on to do very well with that Eagle and found a ton of coins, tokens, rings and other mid-range stuff.

I've been using a Minelab Explorer since 2000 and am aware of the dangers of CHERRY PICKING DISEASE. And I've been tempted to change over to 2 tones or 4 tones because of it. The down side is that it makes me hunt much slower and I am already a very slow hunter.

Tell ya what, I'll have a go the next time I'm out and see how we do.



Rich -