Giving up on permission

[Doc Holliday]

Anyone ever try to deal with City issues about detecting in parks? WOW.

Code says you must obtain a 'permit from the City Chief Engineer' before 'any type of digging', anywhere inside the City Limits...silly me, I actually wasted a few minutes and called the City Chief Engineer to ask about it, says he never heard of issuing permits covering metal detecting and doesn't even know where to begin to find such a permit. Talk about running in circles, I can hear the Three Stooges music playing already. However, the penalty for 'digging without a permit' is a Class 3 Misdemeanor, up to $500 and/or a day in jail.

Well, I've given it enough due diligence, IMO. I'm done chasing it down. Don't want to give the hobby a bad name, but come on already.

What's the phrase? 'It's better to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission'....I'm quickly finding it to be true.

 

[sprchng]

Almost all cities , and counties for that matter , have the same boiler plate wording concerning activities in a public park. "Digging " is referred to in the context of doing damage to park landscaping or structures. Unless there are specific instances where detecting is specifically banned I would not hesitate to detect if only using a hand digger and a probe. If approached just tell them you are there to "aerate the grass and remove the trash".

 

[amberjack]

ding ding round two

AJ

 

[amberjack]

no need for permission you need to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZ-hbpWlXNQ

I am just out there picking up the just over 200 years of white mans rubbish before they arrived there was no rubbish so why do I need permission from them to pick up their rubbish?

just looking after mother earth...

AJ

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Congratulations. You are now the latest victim of: "No one cared.... UNTIL you asked" safe-answer routine.

If you thought verbiage like that forbade md'ing (after all, we *do* "dig", right ?), then I got news for you: Then md'ing is illegal in every single park in the USA. Even if the word "dig" or "digging" isn't used, it'll be something like "Alter". Or "Deface". Or "molest". Or "disturb", etc.... Yes I agree that the word "dig" is a bit more problematic. But let's look closely at this:

If the word in your city's code were "alter" (which , let's be honest, could equally apply), You could successfully rationalize that AS LONG AS YOU LEFT NO TRACE (covered and stomped and fluffled your spot), then LOGICALLY, you haven't alterED anything. Right ? Alter vs alterED. Most persons (even skittish ones) could accept that the inherent intent of "alter" is the end result. Right ?

But then you might say: "But dig" is different. Eh ? Then ask yourself: If you can accept alter vs alterED, then what' the grammatical difference between dig and dug ? It is simply present tense vs past tense. JUST like in the case of alter vs altered. Right ? The only difference is: We don't say "diggED".

I'm not saying this semantics/logic will fly with every single lookie-lou. But just saying that if we assume that such things preclude md'ing (w/o express permission or permits to the contrary), is the day we can give up on all parks everywhere.

And notice that when you approached the city, they didn't know what you were talking about. I mean, of COURSE if someone comes in saying "Hi, can I dig in the park please?", of COURSE they are going to say. "Absolutely not". Even in places where md'ing is common and no one's ever cared before (so long as you're not being a nuisance or leaving holes/messes).

And worse yet: For places where someone went asking about md'ing (to officials who never gave the matter a moment's thought prior to that), guess what will happen next ? That same person, when passing by the park, will see another md'r (whom he previously never have noticed before), will recall the earlier conversation and think: "Aha! There's one of *them*" And start booting others. I've seen this happen before ! A place that had never been an issue or problem before, until someone (bless their little hearts) takes it upon themselves to go asking "can I?"

Thus Unless something specifically expressly said "no md'ing", I do not construe such other boiler plate verbiage to apply to us. And by going and seeking clarifications, permissions, etc..., you often do nothing more than swat hornet's nests. In the future, just go. Barring of course obvious historic sensitive monuments. Or some place that has "specific" verbiage. Just use due discretion, knowing you're in an odd-ball hobby that has .. uh ... "connotations". If that means going at lower traffic times , so be it. It's gotten to where I do most of my turf hunting at night nowadays. So peaceful. So serene.

 

[mrwilburino]

silly me

Agreed. Now go hit those parks!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

silly me

Agreed. Now go hit those parks!

I also give him permission to "spit on sidewalks in New York". Even though it's akin to murder, bank robbery, etc... sometimes you got to "let your hair down". Right ?

 

[amberjack]

does any of it really matter ? , if you had followed me around for the last 30 years you would be very glad the worst thing I do today is go metal detecting very very glad...

so I say sorry to know one and am willing to go to jail for my metal detecting crimes...

if you don't stand for something you will fall for anything..

so really its not even a topic for me I just like to try and give you guys some power but I am just a dumb Aussie right

that dumb I am willing to go to jail for my rights are you??

united we stand divided we fall and from what I have seen on here its a very divided community so in that regard we have no power and its every man for himself sad really but if my psych profile of a metal detectorist is right we are mostly loners and find it hard to connect with others for what ever reason and that's why we take up a solitary pursuit like metal detecting, headphones on blocking out life....

anyway none of this really matters does it as we all have our very own drum we march too

just go detecting and thank God that's the worst thing you do today you criminal you

AJ

 

[MarkCZ]

If you look around on city park grounds you can usually find openly POSTED park rules!
Read them, if they do NOT state no metal detecting then detect!
Don't use LARGE LONG HANDLED digging tools! (a small hand held garden style digger is a good choice)
Don't leave a mess,
Fill in your holes (and yes that means sometimes you'll have to fill in someone else's holes)
Be friendly! I sometime have people walking by with their dogs and ask what if I've found anything and I'm just as friendly to their little tail wagging (friendly acting) pooch and of course I've never found much other than a few pocket drop coins.

Mark

 

[sprchng]

If you look around on city park grounds you can usually find openly POSTED park rules!
Read them, if they do NOT state no metal detecting then detect!


Mark

Unfortunately this may get you in some tepid water if you don't play it right. I recently had a run in at a park in a small burg nearby which I have detected before without issue until the P&R manager saw me in the field and came running over doing the throat slash "cut it out" signal and getting all histrionic with me. Told me to
beat it and that day I just wasn't in the mood to put up with this pencil neck gardener and told him to show me the rule saying that detecting wasn't allowed and told him was acting like an authoritarian nazi. He couldn't , neither was there a sign , but there was a deputy in the complex who he immediately involved and she was similarly ignorant of any code saying one couldn't detect but of course backed up her fellow bureaucrat. I left , pity the next guy who goes there thinking he can detect because there is no sign.

I exchanged a couple of e-mails with the mayor of this lovely village , a W.C. Fields looking sot it turns out , ruling a very blue community , who basically told me I was a liar and detecting was not allowed in their village and they would post no signs to that effect because they didn't want more "sign pollution". What is really interesting is that a couple of weeks earlier the mayors "live in sweetie" had suggested to me that I should come over and detect around their McMansion to see what was there,,,,I have half a mind to call her up and take her up on her offer now!! ,, but it's a 1999 urban sprawl monstrosity sitting in an old alfalfa field.

No sign is no guarantee there will be no hassle , be prepared to handle it more diplomatically than I did.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

If you look around on city park grounds you can usually find openly POSTED park rules!
Read them, if they do NOT state no metal detecting then detect!


Mark

Unfortunately this may get you in some tepid water if you don't play it right. I recently had a run in at a park in a small burg nearby which I have detected before without issue until the P&R manager saw me in the field and came running over doing the throat slash "cut it out" signal and getting all histrionic with me. Told me to
beat it and that day I just wasn't in the mood to put up with this pencil neck gardener and told him to show me the rule saying that detecting wasn't allowed and told him was acting like an authoritarian nazi. He couldn't , neither was there a sign , but there was a deputy in the complex who he immediately involved and she was similarly ignorant of any code saying one couldn't detect but of course backed up her fellow bureaucrat. I left , pity the next guy who goes there thinking he can detect because there is no sign.

I exchanged a couple of e-mails with the mayor of this lovely village , a W.C. Fields looking sot it turns out , ruling a very blue community , who basically told me I was a liar and detecting was not allowed in their village and they would post no signs to that effect because they didn't want more "sign pollution". What is really interesting is that a couple of weeks earlier the mayors "live in sweetie" had suggested to me that I should come over and detect around their McMansion to see what was there,,,,I have half a mind to call her up and take her up on her offer now!! ,, but it's a 1999 urban sprawl monstrosity sitting in an old alfalfa field.

No sign is no guarantee there will be no hassle , be prepared to handle it more diplomatically than I did.

sprchng, your post has many facets:

1) on the one hand, yes, it's possible that a "no detecting" rule exists down at city hall, which didn't happen to be on the wooden sign at the park. If this remote possibility troubles someone, then they are welcome to go to the park's dept website, or study the city muni code, TO SEE if such a rule exists. Personally I wouldn't bother to that extreme. I too would just "go by what's written on the wooden sign".

2) But all of this is a MOOT POINT. Because in your particular case, they were NOT relying on a specific "no md'ing" rule (if I understood your post correctly). Right ? Instead your case was the dreaded "holes" or "dig" verbiage. Right ? Then in that case, the md'r is usually at the loosing end of a battle of semantics over that.

3) But this STILL doesn't mean I fret myself for permission, or looking up deep minutia, or worrying that 'alter' or 'deface' applies to me. YOU CAN NEVER PLEASE EVERY LAST PERSON ON THE PLANET. As much as I wish every last gardener or P&R manager loved and adored my hobby, it just aint gonna happen. We have to realize that our hobby has ... uh .... connotations.

4) So your experience doesn't make me feel we need to shy away, not trust signs, delve further into legal minutia, ask bored city hall desk clerks (risking the 'safe answer' routine). Instead, your experience tells me that flukes will happen from time to time. You say yourself you detected there many time previously w/o issue, right ? So I do not construe singular flukes like this to constitute gospel law from then-on-out. Quite often it just means: Avoid that one person in the future. Go at lower traffic times (certainly that P&R guy's shift is over by 6pm?). Some people might call that "sneaking around". FINE THEN: sneak around.

 

[sprchng]

I will always detect first and feign stupidity second , I agree there is no sense in asking to get the mandatory "I'm not going to take responsibility" refusal from another gutless , government lackey protecting a possible pension. I have actually checked the ordinances for this place before and found no reference to detecting so I knew the guy was making that "arbitrary and capricious" decision to just be a butthead , the mayors continuing refusal to provide the ruling was simply a confirmation of what I already knew.

The only time I would go out of my way to get permission on public land would be that instance where I was looking for an exception to an existing decision or a reconsideration of a previous one against allowing detecting. It never hurts to try and get new bureaucrats to reconsider the errors of their predecessors.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

there is no sense in asking to get the mandatory "I'm not going to take responsibility" refusal...

Aka the "safe" answer. Eh ? And if you think of it, the MERE ASKING simply castes aspersions on ourselves or our hobby. As if something is inherently wrong or harmful that you had to ask. I mean, would you "ask permission" to do something innocuous (fly a kite, etc...) . Of course not. So when we ask "can I?", IMHO the inference that "something is wrong" is implied in the question. It is subconsciously picked up on by the recipient. Who then jumps to images of geeks with shovels. Then ... presto: The easy answer.

.... and found no reference to detecting so I knew the guy was making that "arbitrary and capricious" decision to just be a butthead ,.....

Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say THAT ! haha. To you and I, yes it's arbitrary and capricious. But to THEM, they have no guarantee that you and I aren't going to leave holes. Yes : You and I know we won't leave marks. But how does the next passer-by automatically know that ? Or even if you DID convince them that you're neat and clean, yet, ... put yourself in their shoes: If they allow one md'r who happens to be neat, yet how do they know that this won't open the door for every other yahoo with a detector from coming out there who might not be neat ?

So I hate to say it, but .... sometimes out of site is out of mind. Sure we can try to go around converting everyone and winning legal semantics debates on ancillary language. And sure it's always nice if you know that every loves you and your hobby. But it's just simply not always going to happen (in nice manicured turf anyhow).


So I've gotten to where I do my best to simply be un-seen. For nice turf, sure, that might mean picking lower traffic times (even at night). Kind of like nose-picking: Not illegal, nor do you need anyone's permission, yet .... don't we all sort of pick discreet times, so as not to offend the squeemish ?

 

[Herb Jones]

I was an electrician for years, and located underground utilities often... those ordinances have nothing to do with detecting they are for public safety concerning buried gas, fiber, water, and electrical trunks and laterals... everyone has probably seen the "call 24hrs before you dig commercials"..... feel free to dig away on public property ( you are the public, you should be able to dig provided you are not creating a public nuisance or vandalising/destroying. If they want to restrict metal detecting, they will post signs that clearly state no metal detecting, but as with anything discretion , tact, and common sense always helps.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

... everyone has probably seen the "call 24hrs before you dig commercials".........

Sure. And you think those 3 digit #s that you're supposed to "call before you dig", are referring to heavy equipment digging trenches, Right ? But check out this true story:

A newbie gets a detector. Figures he should "check on legalities" for his city's parks. So he waltzed into city hall and asked the front desk clerk: "Hi. Can I use a metal detector in the parks here ?" The lady was, at first, confused. She was thinking "airport walk-through metal detector". After getting the matter cleared up, she gleefully reached for her binder of city codes & muni park rules. After a few minutes, she turns to the man and says :

"Well.... I don't see anything here addressing that, so I guess you can".

The man smiles and says : "Great! And I'll be sure to cover all my holes".

She says : " Uhhh, holes?"

He replies: " Well sure. I have to dig to get the targets. But don't worry, I'll be neat".

She tells him: "Excuse me for a minute. Let me check something".

She leaves the front desk. He can see her going down the rear halls, popping her head in and out of various other office doors. Apparently conferring with her superiors. She comes back to the front desk and says:

I'm sorry sir, but we're going to have to tell you 'no'"

The man objects and says : "But why ? You just told me yes. What happened?"

She hands him a pamphlet that had a picture of a backhoe on the cover. And the caption "Call before you dig". The man took one look at that, and busted up laughing. Because he realized it had to do with heavy equipment, trenches, utilities, etc.... So he handed the pamphlet back to her and said:

"But mam, that's for people who are going to be digging 6 ft. deep. I'm only going to be digging 6 inches deep. So obviously that doesn't apply to me"

She leafs and glances through the pages of the pamphlet, and hands it back to him saying:

"But sir, it doesn't say HOW deep. It just says 'all digging'. Therefore we're still going to have to tell you no".

The man left with the pamphlet, more confused that when he'd first arrived. True Story ! And a perfect example of "no one cared till you asked".

 

[Sven]

If they want to restrict metal detecting, they will post signs that clearly state no metal detecting, but as with anything discretion , tact, and common sense always helps.

Not in our city, as long as a By-law is on the books, the City does not need to post signs. I am in Canada.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

If they want to restrict metal detecting, they will post signs that clearly state no metal detecting, but as with anything discretion , tact, and common sense always helps.

Not in our city, as long as a By-law is on the books, the City does not need to post signs. I am in Canada.

Sure. It need-not-necessarily be on a wooden sign at a park. It might be buried in minutia @ the muni. codes downtown. But that still doesn't mean to go asking bored bureaucrats "can I?" (lest you fall victim to the safe answer based on ancillary "disturb" or "take" verbiage).

If someone is skittish, and still thinks that the park signs are not comprehensive enough, they can avail themselves of park codes, municipal ordinances, etc... by viewing them on the city's website. Believe it or not, most cities are starting to have their complete muni codes and ordinances on-line nowadays. But even if someone's city doesn't have that, it's STILL not to mean you go grovelling. Instead, you find out where it exists in print form. It's got to be at the library, or city hall somewhere. In binder form accessible to the public for viewing.

You look it up. If nothing there says "no md'ing", presto, not prohibited. I wouldn't bother myself to any of those degrees though. Unless it's on a sign, then if some passerby wishes to "appraise me", they're more than welcome to. You'd get nothing but a warning at best, if it were not posted. But quite frankly, as with all turf, I'm picking low traffic times (because it's an eye-sore if we're totally honest with ourselves). So the odds of getting a scram are slim for me in the first place.