Find's Treasure Forums

Welcome to Find's Treasure Forums, Guests!

You are viewing this forums as a guest which limits you to read only status.

Only registered members may post stories, questions, classifieds, reply to other posts, contact other members using built in messaging and use many other features found on these forums.

Why not register and join us today? It's free! (We don't share your email addresses with anyone.) We keep email addresses of our users to protect them and others from bad people posting things they shouldn't.

Click here to register!



Need Support Help?

Cannot log in?, click here to have new password emailed to you

Changed email? Forgot to update your account with new email address? Need assistance with something else?, click here to go to Find's Support Form and fill out the form.

How to defend yourself

Ronstar

Well-known member
The post about what to do with the guy digging holes….. made me think about a couple of things related to that. What should you do if someone “gets in your face” believing you shouldnt be doing what you’re doing.
Think about it, you are in a public location and someone thinks you are the slob leaving the holes and trash and they approach you aggressively telling you to leave. You have a couple of choices at this point.

Look for anyone else around the immediate area that could be a witness. In a loud and clear voice advise the aggressor, “Do not approach me or touch me, I am legally allowed to do this!” If that person insists on being aggressive step away and repeat above. Try and get someone to look and see what the commotion is. Keep saying that phrase as many times as needed. The aggressor may keep yelling at you but then again they might leave if they realize others are watching.
If they persist in approaching try and keep some distance between you but keep your trowel or pinpointer in your closed fist but holding at your side. Think of it like a defensive stick that could be used to strike the person with the butt of the stick enclosed by your fist. Defensive never offensive.
Or if the situation warrants simply walk away.

Once you establish a boundary, even verbally, you have advised that person you have boundaries. In nearly all jurisdictions there are Battery (or could be Assualt) laws. Battery is defined mainly as the unlawful touching of another against their will. Nobody has a right to touch you (exceptions are normally police who have a right to touch you during arrest or detainment) and you can defend yourself using what we called the Use of Force Continuum. In short you dont use a baseball bat for what a table tennis paddle would do. Use can escalate as the situation develops but start low and increase if needed.
Trust me. If police get involved and witnesses collaborate you warned that person and you simply defended yourself from his/her actions you will walk away.
As a firearms instructor I had to teach the new cops that the Use of Force can go from the paddle to a bat in a blink of an eye so do not think you can not jump the steps, you can.

Im not trying to scare anyone hear, rather I’m trying to tell you that if you have a right to be where you are at least know your options. As we say in law enforcement “I’d rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6”.
Know your limitations and just stay safe.
 

Tony-Ok

Well-known member
No one has ever approached my in over 45 years of detecting, but the world is a changing. I have my buck knife on me that I use on nicer lawns . I also have a 36” lesch shovel that would really ruin someone’s day with a swift swing . If I am in a real bad area of town , I am a licensed concealed carry person. So I guess I am prepared for such a situation. I did have a guy come up behind me once pretty close . I think as he got close to me he realized I was armed with the knife and shovel in plain sight. I try to always be aware of my surroundings . Continually monitoring.
 

Nauti

Well-known member
I was taught by my Thai boxing instructor about awareness like Tony mentioned.Always look around you and assess potential situations from a good distance.This has served me well on a couple of occasions when detecting alone at night on the beach.......if you don't like the look of something keep a good distance between yourself and a potential problem.I have seen figures approaching on a direct heading for me at night on the beach so I have maintained the distance by walking away and circling around them back to my car,they may have been totally innocent nice people but I would rather walk away stealthily than end up getting into a situation.
I use this even while walking down the street......if I see someone in the distance I don't like the look of I will cross to the other side giving me space and time to react to a potential threat......a head start is a very good thing.
Most people who have approached me while detecting have been genuinely interested in what I am doing and I have had some really nice conversations with people but I suppose there is always the chance,especially as we all get older that we could be targets.Awareness is the key to being safe and will prevent potential threats most of the time..........this is my main weapon now as my fighting skills are probably about as much use as a chop stick at a fly swatting contest.
 

Ronstar

Well-known member
Another legal aspect to consider is that which is lethal force. We all hope we never are put in a situation where the use of an instrument may end someones life. As we see more and more civil unrest and mental instability occurring the chances of being in the wrong place at the wrong time increases.
Situational awareness is your first line of defense, Use of Force Continuum is your second, and Legal Standing is your last.
There is no shame in leaving your detector and running, macho attitudes leaves much to be desired, legally being a victim is better than being a suspect. No one can predict what a jury will decide, often right, but still no guarantees.
Gift of gab has gotten me out of more initial verbal confrontations than yelling back.
The martial arts are a wonderful discipline, but they dont work unless you are basically involved in hand to hand contact. A man with a knife 21’ away is as dangerous as a man with a blackbelt. Problem is the man with a knife can either bolt and charge (actions are faster that reactions and its well proven at 21’ and under you can touched before you can get into a defensive stance (or draw your sidearm as far as thats concerned)) and using your sidearm against a person with no weapon/s in hand can go against you very rapidly.
Its a Catch 22 situation no matter what.
When teaching the newbie cops and responding to a critical call I would have them talk out loud about how they were getting there, what they expected to do once there and what to do if everything went south once there. A plan, no matter how hastily put together, gives you precious seconds. Remember actions are faster than reactions? Works both ways.
 

Rockford

Active member
If they were hostile enough i would leave, possibly report them. I would not hesitate to tell them a fib either if i thought it would help, such as the police know im here - call them if you need more information, my job is picking up trash here I dont know what you want but im busy working, etc
More likely you might encounter hostile youth, muggers thugs. I had 4 kids 8 to 12 probably in age screaming at me a few weeks back, screaming you effing n***r at me about 4 times. They were about 60 yards away hoping to get some response from me. I ignored them, but kept an eye on them. They moved on in a few minutes. Had i said anything to them it could just be used against me, or maybe they would have started throwing rocks, or tell their older brother to drive by and fire a few rounds. Ive dug a lot of handgun bullets there.
Self defense is your right, but make it last resort, you may find the police, judges, community do not have your back and that can be quite costly to find out.
 

Nauti

Well-known member
If they were hostile enough i would leave, possibly report them. I would not hesitate to tell them a fib either if i thought it would help, such as the police know im here - call them if you need more information, my job is picking up trash here I dont know what you want but im busy working, etc
More likely you might encounter hostile youth, muggers thugs. I had 4 kids 8 to 12 probably in age screaming at me a few weeks back, screaming you effing n***r at me about 4 times. They were about 60 yards away hoping to get some response from me. I ignored them, but kept an eye on them. They moved on in a few minutes. Had i said anything to them it could just be used against me, or maybe they would have started throwing rocks, or tell their older brother to drive by and fire a few rounds. Ive dug a lot of handgun bullets there.
Self defense is your right, but make it last resort, you may find the police, judges, community do not have your back and that can be quite costly to find out.
In th uk you really have to watch your back regarding acting in self defence......criminals seem to get more help than the rest of us.
 

pulltaboo

Well-known member
Situational awareness is your first line of defense, Use of Force Continuum is your second, and Legal Standing is your last.
We're civilians here, not cops (well, at least most of us), so Use of Force Continuum does not apply. We have absolutely no legal or moral obligation to use "less lethal". AOJP (Ability-Opportunity-Jeopardy) applies instead, as well as Castle Doctrine (in states that have it). But that's in the US, other countries obviously have different laws on self defense and "necessary force".
 

Ronstar

Well-known member
Pulltaboo,
Use of Force Continuum does apply, even in a civil court scenario. There is also what is referred to as the Reasonable Man Theory….. what would a reasonable person do in a similar position? This is where Juries get divided as for what is prudent for one is excessive to another. If the bad guy comes in simply shoving you around could you use deadly force to stop him? Maybe, maybe not. Why didnt you just “wing” him? Because you fired center of mass (just like qualifying on the range) and death is an unfortunate side effect. Can you see how even a partial liberal jury could turn things?
Castle Doctrine deals with your home and immediate property.

Seriously understand your rights to defend yourself and run different scenarios through your mind. You dont want to freeze for even a second as it could cost you dearly. If you have a plan you will implement it faster than you think.
 

Rockford

Active member
Any court case is a big loss, you will pay and pay. If u win u still lose, just not as much. If u try hard u should not end up there, but you could.
Lastly, after something goes down and the police ask you questions, any question beyond your name, your response must be "my lawyer would have to answer that". If that does not make sense to you there are 100s of videos on YouTube that explain why. Watch a few, let everyone in your family know. The old saying is true, everything you say will be used against you.
 

pulltaboo

Well-known member
Castle Doctrine deals with your home and immediate property.
I meant "stand your ground", sorry for another brain fart. Perhaps I should give forum comments two brain cells instead of just one… o_O
Seriously understand your rights to defend yourself and run different scenarios through your mind. You dont want to freeze for even a second as it could cost you dearly. If you have a plan you will implement it faster than you think.
That's why AOJP is the best "safety" mechanism a civilian could have, as it keeps it simple – simple enough for Unga Bunga that takes your body over in a crisis situation. If AOJP is not met, you're not justified to shoot, period. And if it is met, it's up to you to find a way out without resorting to deadly force, although it's seldom possible in such situations.
there are 100s of videos on YouTube that explain why
I'd refer specifically to this one.
 

Odanscoils

Well-known member
I meant "stand your ground", sorry for another brain fart. Perhaps I should give forum comments two brain cells instead of just one… o_O

That's why AOJP is the best "safety" mechanism a civilian could have, as it keeps it simple – simple enough for Unga Bunga that takes your body over in a crisis situation. If AOJP is not met, you're not justified to shoot, period. And if it is met, it's up to you to find a way out without resorting to deadly force, although it's seldom possible in such situations.

I'd refer specifically to this one.
I just hate we have to worry about protecting ourselves. And criminals have more rites.
Absolutely bull Crap.
 

Ronstar

Well-known member
Unfortunately it more plays out to whom is the more pretty or best dressed attorney. Sad but true.
 

bigtim1973

Active member
I have never been approached wearing a side arm.


I did it several years ago by an experiment.


People would walk up and ask hey, are you supposed to be doing this.....or do i have permission....yes I would say then they would go on.




Then the regular folks would stop and ask if I found anything....i do not mind that.


Then I decided to wear a pistol on my side in plain view just to see what would happen.


No one ever approached me again.


Not even the ones who just were curious about the hobby.



I only do this inside city limits.
 

pulltaboo

Well-known member
No one ever approached me again.
Sidearm, hi-viz vest, and everyone (including cops) automatically assumes that you're working a crime scene. Deep in the woods, different story – people in camo will be emerging from the bushes and having a friendly chat with you. Once the friendliness is established, their friends with long guns usually come out of hiding.
Unfortunately it more plays out to whom is the more pretty or best dressed attorney. Sad but true.
Well, I tend to DIY my legal stuff (as I'm representing myself much better than any lawyer I could afford)… Judges always ask "where's your client?" and act surprised when they learn that I'm all-in-one. Guess I've to compliment my tailor…
 

bigtim1973

Active member
Sidearm, hi-viz vest, and everyone (including cops) automatically assumes that you're working a crime scene. Deep in the woods, different story – people in camo will be emerging from the bushes and having a friendly chat with you. Once the friendliness is established, their friends with long guns usually come out of hiding.

Well, I tend to DIY my legal stuff (as I'm representing myself much better than any lawyer I could afford)… Judges always ask "where's your client?" and act surprised when they learn that I'm all-in-one. Guess I've to compliment my tailor…
It is best to stay away from hunters during open season.


I do not do that at all.


Never had a bunch of hill country folk ever approach me anywhere in the great outdoor fields and woods.


Never saw a cop or detective while out in the wilderness either.



Not sure where you are detecting but maybe you should find more safer places.
 
Top