I apologize if this has been asked previously - White's D2 or 10" Excelerator - Any difference?

[padiggin]

I thought I read in one post where someone thought there wasn't a difference between them. I'm in the market for another coil for use in "hot" highly mineralized ground for relic hunting. Currently I have the stock 9.5, the Eclipse 5.3 and the Elliptical 6X9. I've read numerous times where Monte has commented on not liking the elliptical coils just as a matter of preference to the style of it. I'm in agreement with him on that and was considering either the White's D2 or the Excelerator 10" as I prefer a concentric styled coil as opposed to the elliptical. Anyone have any thoughts or experience on using either one of these coils? Any difference between the two of them? For the highly mineralized ground I will be searching in, would a 6" or 8" DD Excelerator be better than a 10"? Just curious on what others experience or thoughts are on it. Thanks - Don

 

[ColoradoGoldMan]

Don any time you can reduce the amount of mineralization seen by the coil it will lower the effect it has on the target signal. A 10" DD coil has the same area of seen ground no matter what the shape, elliptical or concentric. The center strip is what receives the signal. From an electrical stand point the coils are the same. The elliptical coil is easier to get in tight places and around objects than the round coils but the field strength and receive coil is about the same in both. For the most part it is a personal preference. Now with that said coils by different manufactures may show more of less sensitivity to larger or small targets depending on shielding, inductance and capacitance. So bottom line, It depends on what you are hunting, how you setup your detector and what type of mineralized soil you hunting in.Look at it like a football stadium and you are on the 50 yard line tyring to pick out one person and here them. You either need to reduce the size of the stadium to here him or you need to remove as many people as possible to here him. I hope this does not confuse you but the smaller the nose level the better you can here your guy, or gal.
HH
C

 

[Rob (IL)]

The round coil will be deeper. The elliptical coil gets the depth closer to the smaller dimension of the coil. A 6x10 would get the depth closer to a 6" coil than a 10" coil. This has been stated by Whites engineer Carl. I've run both the 10" Excelerator and D2 on my MXT and see no difference. I believe Larry has made the same statement. Rob

 

[Larry (IL)]

Yep, I have made the same statement for the DFX and V3 usage, but have not tried them on the MXT. I would have to assume the results would be simular or the same for MXT/ M6 users. The EX is cheaper, but the D2 is built to higher standards with better resale value.

 

[padiggin]

n/t

 

[Groundshaker]

padiggin,thanks for asking that question......Winter is close,and it is time for me to hang my MXT up on the wall for the winter and save for a D2. I have the super 12 and 4X6DD. But i think i am missing targets with the super 12 (due to its funnel shaped electromagnetic search field). Even though you swing your coil 1/2 the coil width,the search area narrows the deeper it gets. This is why i think a D2 might help (with its wider search pattern) prevent as much target loss. I have researched my area and hit deep targets (that i missed just minutes before with the super 12) while searching a 45 degree pattern over the previous area with my super 12 and getting more coins. I am guessing the D2 is an improvement,or it wouldn't be the standard coil on the latest flagship detector from whites (the V3)........

 

[Monte]

I thought I read in one post where someone thought there wasn't a difference between them.

I've owned 3 10" D2's and 3 of the 10" Excelerator. I felt they all provided very similar performance on the MXT, M6 and V3. The 'felt' handling of the 10" Excelerator, for me, seemed a little better. Lighter or the rod-mount point was different enough or ??? It just felt a little better balanced, but the field performance was similar.

I'm in the market for another coil for use in "hot" highly mineralized ground for relic hunting.

By "hot" what MXT Ground Phase reading are you referring to? Just curious what you get and with which coil.

Currently I have the stock 9.5, the Eclipse 5.3 and the Elliptical 6X9. I've read numerous times where Monte has commented on not liking the elliptical coils just as a matter of preference to the style of it. I'm in agreement with him on that and was considering either the White's D2 or the Excelerator 10" as I prefer a concentric styled coil as opposed to the elliptical.

The 10" D2 and 10" Excelerator Double-D coils are in a round configuration. Don't confuse that with being a "concentric-styled" coil. Concentric and Wide-Scan (D-D) are descriptions of internal Tx & Rx winding configurations. Both types an be housed in either a round or elliptical shaped coil.

You're correct in that I favor a round-shaped coil. Just a personal thing. I also prefer a concentric type coil to an wide-scan design, at least in most models and for most applications. Back in the early-to-mid '70s I preferred a good wide-scan coil equipped Compass 77-B or 77-B Automatic w/8", or Garrett Competition Master TR w/8". These wide-scan equipped model lacked discrimination (fine with me at the time) and we tops for competition hunts or workign iron nail infested locations. To this day I prefer a round-shaped coil, but I prefer a concentric design most of the time. Why? Better discrimination qualities than a Double-D, and size-for-size better depth and pinpointing capability.

Are the Double-D's better in "highly mineralized" ground? Possibly. In theory, at least, but I have not found that to always be the case in actual field performance. For example, where I live and hunt, most of the ground produces a GPR (Ground Phase Read-Out) on the MXT of 78 to 81, and at my favorite city park I can hit a few spots where it's

 

[padiggin]

Monte - regarding your question pertaining to how "hot" the ground is, I'm not exactly sure what the ground phase reading is. I haven't checked it out. The location is in central Virginia and I'm part of the DIV group that gets together to hunt civil war relics and from what everyone says that ground in the Culpeper/Central VA area is extremely bad ground for relic hunters. I've seen and heard other say that when you swing your coil over the ground, you should dig EVERY signal because the ground is so bad and it 'hides" the relics. In many situations that I saw myself, you will get a reading of "iron" and when you dig it up it's a lead .58 minnie ball. Iron ends up reading as a non-iron 'good' object like a button or bullet and a non-iron 'good' reading will end up being a nail or iron object. In fact many of the guys are now using the White's TDI because it has the ability to "see" through this nasty ground composition better than the VLF detectors. This was why I was asking about the 10" DD coils. I have the 6x10, but I heard from some folks there that I may be losing "some" depth with that coil in that location with that soil. Short of going out and spending a fortune on another detector, I was just hoping a different coil like the D2 would give me a better chance at finding more of those 'goodies' with my MXT. I love my MXT and really don't want to learn another detector.

But thanks for all your comments and to everyone else that responded. I appreciate those of you with more experience than me and your insight.

Don

 

[Groundshaker]

I was hoping Monte would chime in on my situation and educate me.I think my choice of going to a D2 for it's "wiper blade" type electromagnetic search pattern compared to the "Funnel" pattern of the concentric super 12. I am searching large "Ballfield" type area's. Are my idea's misguided? should i stick with what i already have?.

I think others might like to read a response and learn too.

Any and all info greatly appreciated..........Tom

 

[Giant056]

I have always gone with Whites products myself but I'm sure the other coil will do fine from what I've read.

 

[Monte]

some "dirty-bad-nasty" ground environment. I've hunted such places myself and that's why about thirty years ago I started promoting the "Beep-[size=large]DIG![/size] " philosophy for successful detecting, especially in challenging conditions.

I was workign such a site late last year and thought that a larger Double-D coil might help get a little better depth. I was using an MXT and two others detectors at the site. Using a 10" Excelerator and 10X12 SEF and 10" D2 on two detectors at this site I came to the conclusion that while the theory suggested they might get better depth, the larger size saw too much ground and I had terrible results. This was especially true when I was using minimal iron discrimination.

I used smaller Double-D coils as well as all the concentric coils I had available. In the end, I got better performance from two Double-D coils and one Concentric design. These were the 6" & 8" Excelerator coils (and my all-purpose favorite, the 5.3 Eclipse. This 6

 

[Monte]

I was hoping Monte would chime in on my situation and educate me. I think my choice of going to a D2 for it's "wiper blade" type electromagnetic search pattern compared to the "Funnel" pattern of the concentric super 12. I am searching large "Ballfield" type area's. Are my idea's misguided? should i stick with what i already have?

The actual shape of the electromagnetic field that is generated about a Double-D coil is not a "wiper blade" shape, just like the electromagnetic field generated by a round concentric coil is not 'V' or "funnel" shaped. These are often stated misdescriptions of what is a rough representation of the functional reactive portion of the generated EMF.

The reactive nature isn't limited to just the shape of the search coil but the particular detector model it is used on and the gain level and how the signals are processed. All search coils have their strengths and weaknesses. Personally, I favor the round, concentric-designed 12" coil for most open, low-target areas.

I think others might like to read a response and learn too.

I'm not so certain all that many people look forward to my posts. Some perhaps.

Winter is close, and it is time for me to hang my MXT up on the wall for the winter and save for a D2. I have the super 12 and 4X6DD. But i think i am missing targets with the super 12 (due to its funnel shaped electromagnetic search field). Even though you swing your coil 1/2 the coil width, the search area narrows the deeper it gets.

The functional EMF field narrows or diminishes with BOTH designs (concentric or wide-scan), although I'll concede that it diminishes a bit faster, at depth, with the concentric design in relation to the center of the coil's axis.

The need to overlap is paramount with any search coil. In my opinion, regardless of the search coil used, most of the time you can get a signal on a deep, small coin, such as a dime, and note that the deepest detection will be when the coil is centered over a coin that's positioned 'flat' to the coil. When you experiment and determine the maximum depth you can detect a small coin at, you will also note that the search coil only needs to be moved off that in-line position a tiny bit and you'll lose the target response.

So, for the DEEPEST performance on the smaller coins, you need to advance the search coil no more than the diameter of the smaller coin (target) you anticipate finding. WHAT!!! I know, I can hear it now. Keep in mind that I am describing how you want to work a given area and be able to get a good response from a small target at the deepest point a detector/coil combination can reach. To accomplish that, you need to sweep side-to-side in a straight line and advance the search coil only an amount equal to the smallest target you plan to find.

Thus, if we want to find a dime-sized target it makes no difference what size the search coil is, we are only going to advance the coil the diameter of a dime and re-sweep left-and-right for peak performance. The coil size will only make a difference in how deeply we might detect such a small target. Generally, the smaller coils not as deep and the larger coils a bit deeper.

However, even there we'll have some trade-offs. I have long felt that a coil of about 8" diameter is perhaps a best-size general purpose coil. Honestly, if I had my way and I was manufacturing detectors, they would come equipped with something about 6"-7" in diameter (such as the 5.3 Eclipse which is 6

 

[padiggin]

Thank you all for your thoughts and expertise! And Monte thanks for sharing your experience with that, that is great information.

 

[Groundshaker]

Thank You Monte I ALWAYS respect what you say and take serious note of it. I come here to LEARN and i learn from you and others.
I am going to get a 5.3 and add it to my collection and pass the D2 for another time when i got some extra ducats to spend on toys (men toys LOL).
I have this one school yard that i take my time on and always find coins (late 60's - late 80's) buried in the 6 to 10 inch range. I use my 4X6 just in the tot lot area and the super 12 out in the large area where they have soccer during the summer and what i think a carnival sometime in the late 80's. I am in no hurry to hit this area and move on.It is my favorite "secret fishing hole" where 5 bucks of older clad in 3 hours keeps this old fart happy.By getting the 5.3.i will have extra left to get extra lower rods and bolts for the 2 other coils.I like to have them on the lower rods.It saves me time and reduces the wear and tear on that lower clevis by constantly undoing that plastic bolt etc etc.................Tom